15 ms·
I love this: Musk has promised to respond publicly to the negative NY Times review WITH DATA FROM THE CAR directly contradicting the assertions in the review.
by cs702 14y ago
I love this: Musk has promised to respond publicly to the negative NY Times review WITH DATA FROM THE CAR directly contradicting the assertions in the review. From now on, reviewers will be extremely careful about exaggerating the negatives of, or lying about, Tesla vehicles.
- TylerE 14y agoThis is also a good way to never get positive press coverage ever again.
- jonknee 14y agoHaving the most respected news organization in the world apologize for lying in its review of your vehicle will not harm your future press coverage. If anything it will ensure others take a more rigorous fact checking process in the future.
- prawks 14y agoThis is, of course, if Musk is correct and the NYT is indeed lying. If he can't prove it, I'd agree with TylerE.
- cremnob 14y agoAnd if Elon fails to actually prove this reporter lied/fabricated the review and just waffles, the NYT is going to skewer Tesla in their response and this story will get much more legs than if they had just ignored the review.
- nlh 14y agoI dunno - do you really think auto reviewers are all a same-think cabal who hold grudges on each other's behalf? I've met a bunch, and I don't think that's correct. Most are out to ... drumroll ... write reviews. If Tesla puts out a good product, they'll get good reviews.
- roc 14y agoNot to mention that most writers have a pretty good idea who else on their beat is writing tripe. And if someone has a habit of doing this sort of thing, they're not going to care one whit when that person is exposed.
- slantyyz 14y agoI thought many auto reviewers were like entertainment reporters (my perception could be out of date)-- they usually go on review junkets paid for by the auto makers and often don't post reviews that are too negative for fear of not being invited again. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Consumer Reports bought a Tesla for review, and when they announced it, they mentioned all the hoops they jumped through to prevent Tesla from knowing that they bought one.
- notatoad 14y ago>they mentioned all the hoops they jumped through to prevent Tesla from knowing that they bought one. Given Musk's tweet about how they always enable data logging for journalists, i'm wondering why it was so important for CR not to let tesla know they bought one.
- slantyyz 14y agoIf I'm not mistaken, CR buys all the cars they review, unlike most news organizations, who get loaners and/or expenses paid junkets. The most likely reason is that they didn't want Tesla to cherry pick the best unit they had available to ensure a positive review.
- danielweber 14y agoYes, this is more about Consumer Reports than about Tesla. CR cares a lot that they aren't getting any kind of special car. They want the exact same car their customers would get.
- smackfu 14y agoHonestly, I'm surprised anyone is even willing to do a review, when they have shown a willingness to sue the press for libel. Why bother taking the risk? Just let them have no press.
- jonknee 14y agoAny company or individual should be willing to sue the press for libel. It should also not be of any concern to a media outlet because by rule you should not be committing libel. It would be an awesomely poor publication that is only willing to report on people and organizations that won't sue the publication when it intentionally misrepresents the facts.
- lawnchair_larry 14y agoIn a perfect world. But in the real world, your concern has little to do with whether or not you actually committed libel. Just because you didn't, doesn't mean the company that you just trashed won't lawyer up and claim otherwise. If US courts were "loser pays", this would be somewhat less of a concern.
- hkmurakami 14y agopageviews? :)
- milesskorpen 14y agoThe UK has very different libel laws, so it isn't quite the same as suing for libel in the US (which is rather rare).
- cube13 14y agoWhich makes the fact that Tesla lost the lawsuit in the UK even more remarkable. The burden of proof rests on the defense in the UK, not the plaintiffs.
- monsterix 14y agoWhy so? I think it is going to be quite the opposite. They now have the exact kind of coverage they wanted. At best what's going to happen here is either a legal suit, or an apologetic exit. It's good that they were storing the logs - machines don't lie.
- homosaur 14y agoYour hypothesis is playing out already. I just saw a piece on CNBC a few minutes ago talking about the negative NYT Tesla review where they mostly talked about how glowing the reviews have been for the Tesla S and how as a company they are really doing well. My overall impression is that people were taking the NYT review with a grain of salt even before Musk called BS. But NYT also called BS on him, so let's see whose numbers add up.
- DigitalJack 14y agoMachines do what people tell them to do. All NYT has to do is claim Tesla faked the log data.
- monsterix 14y agoTrue that. However, that would be a bit of a stretch. A more likely outcome is great coverage in short course for Tesla and another short tone-it a-couple-of-notches-down by NYTimes on the third page. Unless of course there is legal entanglement.
- lawnchair_larry 14y agoMachines lie constantly. Get some filter oil on your mass airflow sensor, and watch your ECUs nose grow. Hell, we almost nuked the russians, and them us, due to a lying machine :)
- tadfisher 14y agoWell then you're changing the parameters of the question :)
- vm 14y agoNot true. Tesla sued BBC's Top Gear for libel after a review [1]. That didn't stop Tesla from getting this NY Times piece [2] and other award-winning press, such as Motor Trend Car of the Year 2013. [1] Tesla vs Top Gear, well documented by Tesla http://www.teslamotors.com/teslavstopgear http://www.teslamotors.com/teslavstopgear [2] NY Times piece in question: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the... Edit: removed date of lawsuit per comment below
- tokenadult 14y agoSee below (right now it's below, but it probably deserves to be upvoted some more) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5203228 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5203228 for a more detailed discussion in this same thread of the Top Gear review and the litigation surrounding it.
- cube13 14y ago> Tesla sued BBC's Top Gear in 2012 [1] It was in 2011(http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/30/tesla-sues-top-gear-for-libel-new-stig-unavailable-for-comment/ http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/30/tesla-sues-top-gear-for-l... ), and it was over a largely positive feature on the roadster that aired in 2008.
- throwaway54-762 14y agoWhat positive coverage?
- wahsd 14y agoBecause they have to tell the truth or be called out with data? Not sure I follow, unless you are talking about auto industry shills.
- ynniv 14y agoFrom now on Top Gear already had this exact interaction with Tesla. Either the Times didn't do their homework, or there is a high return on negative Tesla reviews.
- tokenadult 14y agoSee below (right now it's below, but it probably deserves to be upvoted some more) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5203228 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5203228 for a more detailed discussion in this same thread of the Top Gear review and the litigation surrounding it.
- lnanek2 14y agoThere is a high return on anything news breaking or extreme. Bloggers make up things constantly, report unsupported anonymous tips, etc.. Many of them or paid and fired based on the number of page views they get. Not really surprising this behavior is creeping into traditional media.
- Shivetya 14y agoThe reporter claims the car informed him that "charging complete". That is not the same thing as "you have full range". He also clearly states he was in contact with Tesla throughout the drive and they provided advice, sometimes wrong. Plus the real negative part of the article that Musk is glossing over is, having to turn off heat in a vehicle just to get somewhere, got to be loads of fun in the summer too. So what we have is possible confusion on part of the reporter or bad UI design. Either way it only points out that a 100k electric car is not a road trip car. Its a trip for suburbanites or similar. Sure you "can" do a long trip but you don't have the range of alternative a normally fueled vehicle has. battery powered cars are an interesting technology, I am not quite in agreement they are ready for prime time. Considering the range limits of the top of the line I doubt many would be satisfied with the entry level model. The big automakers are investigating many different fuel systems simply because they know any replacement to truly take hold has to be simple enough for anyone. It just has too work, there is no place for a list of "buts"
- jonknee 14y ago> Plus the real negative part of the article that Musk is glossing over is, having to turn off heat in a vehicle just to get somewhere, got to be loads of fun in the summer too. You "have" to do the same thing in a gas powered car if you don't fill up the tank when given the chance.
- ken_railey 14y agoWhat? Using the heater does not affect range in a gas powered car.
- jonknee 14y ago> got to be loads of fun in the summer too.
- ken_railey 14y agoThis part of the quote was added after I replied
- freyr 14y agoI'm all for Tesla defending itself, but is a barrage of tweets really the best way for Musk to address reviewers (and competitors)? Maybe it's the nature of the medium, but it just seems a little silly to defend your business in fractured, abbreviated little snippets.
- jlgreco 14y agoIt might not be the best way, but it does seem plenty trendy. Also, assuming a more 'official' response is in the works, a tweet is still faster so both are probably a decent idea during a time-sensitive event like bad publicity.
- joezydeco 14y agoMusk can control who sees his tweets, he can't control who prints his press release. Putting the tweets out there ahead of time also changes the conversation's point-of-view. Now the public will demand answers from the NYT along with Musk while everyone waits for the data. Hell, he doesn't even need to publish the data for a while. Everyone can sit back and watch what the NYT does next.
- freyr 14y agoMaybe it's just because I don't use Twitter frequently, but an instance like this seems to highlight how ridiculous restricting yourself to 140 characters can be. You have something important to say, and you're forced to drop pronouns and abbreviate words and break your message into several pieces. Your response to the world reads like a rushed text I'd get from my little sister. To me, it just makes the whole thing feel somewhat petty. But that's probably just me, getting older.
- wahsd 14y agoActually, I think it is quite appropriate for the situation. It's a tool for immediate, tactical damage control. Long, arduous responses to accusations take just a long as the, in this case, article that made the accusation. For argument's sake, if the NTY journalist is a tool, Musk, Tesla, and, really, all of us have a lot riding on lies and manipulation be squashed as soon as they happen. On the other hand, if it's true, which would come out one way or another anyways, then maybe electric vehicles aren't really mature enough. I really hope that this guy gets canned if he wove a narrative that is deceptive and false. Too much is riding on the public impressions. That being said, there are, at least, two Tesla roadsters in my area and they don't seem to have a problem driving around. Am I the only that likes a good ol' throw-down! Put up or shut up, suckers.
- smackfu 14y agoThe other way to look at is intimidation by Musk. If you are going to get called a liar if you print a negative story about Tesla, because the product is so great it can't possibly have flaws, maybe you just spike a story that has a negative slant. Are we really well served by that?
- scrabble 14y agoIf logs in the car indisputably show that the journalist's article did not match the experience, then he should be called a liar and we would be well served by it.
- smackfu 14y agoLogs should probably come with accusations of "liar", not in a blog post to follow later.
- artursapek 14y agoI doubt Musk can instantly tweet the logs to prove his point... they're probably full of irrelevant data and have to be processed a bit before publishing in defense against this. Musk is just jumping on this so the article doesn't sit there for too long giving people what he believes is the wrong impression about his product.
- slantyyz 14y agoNYT published their version of the log (via the Verge): http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2013/02/10/automobiles/10tesla-map.html?ref=automobiles http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2013/02/10/automobiles/10t...
- gojomo 14y agoAccording to that chart, reviewer stalled out after traveling 51 miles (point 7) after seeing an estimated range of 32 miles (point 6). Except for the cold overnight loss-of-estimated-range, the car's reported range estimates all seem accurate and conservative. So, was the 'detour' Musk refers to mixed in with the overnight drop? Or perhaps there was another unreported drain on the battery, overnight? Looking back at the original article - www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html?pagewanted=all - it seems that at low-power-charge point 6, "after an hour [Tesla] cleared me to resume the trip to Milford". Presumably, that's why the reporter set out on a 118-mile journey (6-7, 7-8) with a car whose self-reported estimated range was only 32 miles. So some things to look for in Musk's reply: (1) Why the severe overnight range drop? (2) Why the mixed-signals about whether it was OK to depart Norwich (point 6)?
- tadfisher 14y ago(1) could very well be explained by the battery management system expending energy to keep the batteries warm.
- kingkawn 14y agoThe NYT does not seemingly have the incentive to fabricate this much data. Musk on the other hand is defending his company. I look forward to their being more information released, but given the above chart, I do not immediately believe that the NYT reporter lied just because the company that was being reviewed says so.
- notdrunkatall 14y agoI don't claim to know what's going on, but the NYT most certainly does have an incentive, and so does the reporter: it's a controversial, interesting story. Tesla has been firing on all cylinders, the Model S has won many accolades, and this reporter's experience is the first major black mark on the company's reputation. A positive review would just be another on the pile and would hardly be noticed, but something like this is guaranteed to get attention.
- kryptiskt 14y agoEverybody else for that matter, this seems to be a very cavalier use of what should be private data. Not at all what I would like to see as somebody who cares about privacy. Is it possible to turn off the logging?
- sp332 14y agoNear the top of the article: Tesla data logging is only turned on with explicit written permission from customers, but after Top Gear BS, we always keep it on for media.
- VBprogrammer 14y agoI would guess that when Tesla allow you to borrow one of their cars for the purpose of writing a review one of the lines on the contract says they are allowed to record your journey. The original article mentions it is normally turned off for customers.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- entropy_ 14y agoFrom the article: "Tesla data logging is only turned on with explicit written permission from customers, but after Top Gear BS, we always keep it on for media."
- Volpe 14y agoRead the article. It states you have to explicitly sign to have your data logged, and they have it on by default for media reviews due to some incident with Top Gear.
- 001sky 14y agoisn't the temperature variability of li-ion a rookie mistake? have you ever taken a camera skiing? I did last week and it froze in 15-20 minutes, due to neg 15 wind chill and and exterior placement. Warmed it up, it worked fine. If tesla is selling the car on the east coast, this is not a "fake" scenario. From a PR perspective, the damage is done. Gotcha;s aside by either NYT or Tesla (whoever is right) it sorta doesn;t matter...
- lnanek2 14y agoTesla S has a battery heating system, although that's why you are supposed to plug it in overnight, which didn't happen in this case, apparently. So "not working in the cold" becomes "uses extra power to keep itself warm in the cold".
- ams6110 14y agoOf course you still have to basically chose whether you believe Musk's log data or the NYT's test results (that is to say, either could be faked).