5 ms·

Keep up the good work Google. I hope this serves as encouragement for them to continue to screw over those who want to turn searching for relevant information i

by dkhenry 14y ago

Keep up the good work Google. I hope this serves as encouragement for them to continue to screw over those who want to turn searching for relevant information into a war for who can cheat the system the best.

buster 14y ago
Exactly my thoughts.
morganwilde 14y ago
Exactly what I thought, SEO should not have ever become a "thing" if Google did its job right.
- illuminate 14y ago
  "SEO should not have ever become a "thing" if Google did its job right." SEO will always be a "thing" as long as people are not always interested in providing relevant information. It will always be an asymmetric battle between people who want to prioritize their noise over useful signal.
  - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
    >SEO will always be a "thing" as long as people are not always interested in providing relevant information. // SEO is [also] about bridging the gap between machine-based abstraction of the data in your site and human searchers. Most of the on-page/on-site optimisations are simply ensuring that the SE can abstract the right information so that users searching for the content you're providing can find it. SEO will always be a thing as long as Googlebot fails to perfectly abstract the data content of a site and perfectly rank sites according to user needs.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      The discrepancy here is probably that "SEO" is mostly used as a pejorative versus the intentions you describe.
jeremyjh 14y ago
Amen brother.
rlpb 14y ago
There is still a case for consultants who understand how to make websites genuinely more useful and relevant. Then it's win-win. Their motives might be their rankings, traffic and profit, but if it improves the web for Google users, then that isn't necessarily a bad thing. But the tone of this "article" makes this guy sound like he wears a black hat.
- a5seo 14y ago
  Not to mention helping sites avoid crawl suicide like massively duplicating content across sites, implementing faceted nav and pagination wrong, putting core content in AJAX, generating thin pages, making Google guess which page is the canonical one, and product managers who think "hey let's republish this database of millions of items on our site with generate millions of pages."
- explicitlyme 14y ago
  I don't really. I do believe there is value in learning the dark side of this profession though. There aren't enough genuine SEOs that really understand both sides of the equation.
  - a5seo 14y ago
    I used to agree with this, but lately I feel like any learnings are going to have a short shelf life. With the EMD updates and on-going refinements to Penguin, how long can any truly effective hack really be expected to work? I'm glad Google is cleaning house b/c it became annoying trying to counsel people to not violate the Webmaster Guidelines when they could point to successful competitors or some backwater infomercial claiming they could shortcut their way by spamming. The best strategy I've found is just to not shoot yourself in the foot in terms of site structure and IA, and invest in long-term value through link building with PR and content that naturally attracts links.
    - skulquake 14y ago
      I wish some of the "real" black hatters could come on here and speak. These guys are the ones putting together massive strategies/campaigns to rank across a wide variety of thousands of key terms. And there not writing about it. The techniques many people are talking about now were done maybe 2-3 years before this whole mess. They are so far ahead of what the "industry" is focused on it's not even funny.
CKKim 14y ago
Totally with you. I was enjoying the amusing tone of the piece but he lost my sympathy at: "Before, SEO was the game of really skilled people, you know like professional poker players. You had to know the game, know when to raise, and when to bluff." Then with the "Maybe I should find another job?" I thought this has got to be satire. Well played, sir. The way the piece is framed, the writing style, surely a work of humour?
- illuminate 14y ago
  From his twitter postings, I don't believe this is fake.
  - CKKim 14y ago
    Ah, thanks for this and your comment elsewhere in the thread. That Twitter link, for those also intrigued: https://twitter.com/rishil https://twitter.com/rishil.
- bmac27 14y ago
  I agree; that last comment gives it away. I've been doing enterprise-level SEO for several years now as a day job and it's not as if algo updates are so frequent and far reaching as to make it difficult to keep up with. Most major updates from Google and the other engines are predicated on two major themes: -Rewarding relevant, informative, keyword-rich content focused on specific topics and punishing sites that construct thinly constructed (UGC or otherwise) pages, particularly those who do it in huge numbers. -Rewarding sites who links from similarly relevant, authoritative sources gained organically and punishing those who acquire links through artificial means (either through direct purchases, purchasing domain portfolios with thousands of backlinks etc.) There are nuances that are market-specific that require slightly different approaches and concentrations (e.g. health care) but those are the main things folks should concern themselves with. There's no black magic behind it unless you're doing something shady to begin with.
- explicitlyme 14y ago
  It was meant as humour, for other SEOs in reality. Kind of an in joke that took the hard part of our job and made it funny. Frankly, as in any industry, you have to adapt. (I am the Author of that site)
websitescenes 14y ago
Plus one. SEO is absolutely annoying. If a site is built correctly and there is interest in the service or topic the site provides, then the product will be found. Stuffing keywords into title and heading tags along with other grey area SEO techniques really devalues the internet. I see SEO along the same lines as buying domains that you think may have value and sitting on them. Games like this hinder progress and real utilization of the resources at our disposal.
- dchuk 14y ago
  You clearly have no idea what SEO really is.
  - websitescenes 14y ago
    Of course, optimize your content so that it's easy to find and index. That's building your site correctly. All I am saying is that after market SEO is a little gimmicky because of the patchwork approach taken by many SEO specialists. As a longtime developer that has had lots of interaction with clients, I know they often spend their time worrying about SEO instead of posting good content. If a consumer isn't satisfied with search rankings and they think their site is poorly built, then they are better off contracting someone that will build it correctly the first time. Now obviously a dynamically served website has some SEO issues and needs some special attention, but this shouldn't be an after thought or third party component.
- a5seo 14y ago
  "if a site is built correctly" - right. That's far from a given. I can show you dozens of examples of well-funded "A list" too-cool-for-SEO developers who have no idea whatsoever what "built correctly" entails from the POV of a search engine. The role of SEO is a) Product Management to set requirements to optimize crawlability, indexing, and retrieval, or b) QA that arrives after the fact and highlights all the ways the site fails to be usable for bots. My experience is if you design things right first, it costs much less than if you don't. Plus you see the upside of your efforts quickly. But maybe some people take the attitude that "giving me traffic is Google's job" and then when they don't get organic traffic, they have to buy it. Hopefully they also enjoy raising money and giving up a big chunk of their company, too.
chatmasta 14y ago
As long as search results are determined by algorithms, there will be search engine optimization. Why? Because every algorithm can be optimized for something. And as long as search engine optimization exists, engaging in it will be a competitive advantage. Why would you NOT want your site to appear at the top of the search results for as many keywords as possible? Your job as a business owner is to bring as many customers to your business as you can. To suggest anything else is absurd. I'm happy that so many HN readers are anti-SEO, because that's less competition for me.
- Bradosaur 14y ago
  Just because something is good for my business, doesn't mean it's good for society. SEO (beyond actually making your site more valuable) is a classic prisoner's dilemma.
  - chatmasta 14y ago
    I think this is where my views differ from many on HN. As a business owner, I will do whatever is best for my business, without regards to what is best for society. My job is not to worry about what is best for society -- that job belongs to the government. The government sets the rules and we play the game. As long as I am not breaking any laws, I will do whatever it takes to bring my business to the top. I have to do this because if I don't, somebody else will. Riding a moral high horse will only lead to my business being stampeded by others who are willing to engage in tactics I am not. This is not to say that I actively work against what's best for society. My point is that I will do what's best for my business, with regard to nothing else. I think that is what makes a good business owner. Another trait of a good business owner is the belief that his business provides the best value in its market. If you truly believe that, then by engaging in SEO to rank your business at the top of its market, you ARE doing what's best for society. If you suggest that engaging in SEO tactics to rank your business at the top is BAD for society, then you are inherently suggesting that your business does not provide the best value to its market.
    - lolcraft 14y ago

by dkhenry 14y ago

buster 14y ago

Exactly my thoughts.

morganwilde 14y ago

Exactly what I thought, SEO should not have ever become a "thing" if Google did its job right.

illuminate 14y ago
"SEO should not have ever become a "thing" if Google did its job right." SEO will always be a "thing" as long as people are not always interested in providing relevant information. It will always be an asymmetric battle between people who want to prioritize their noise over useful signal.
- pbhjpbhj 14y ago
  >SEO will always be a "thing" as long as people are not always interested in providing relevant information. // SEO is [also] about bridging the gap between machine-based abstraction of the data in your site and human searchers. Most of the on-page/on-site optimisations are simply ensuring that the SE can abstract the right information so that users searching for the content you're providing can find it. SEO will always be a thing as long as Googlebot fails to perfectly abstract the data content of a site and perfectly rank sites according to user needs.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    The discrepancy here is probably that "SEO" is mostly used as a pejorative versus the intentions you describe.

jeremyjh 14y ago

Amen brother.

rlpb 14y ago

There is still a case for consultants who understand how to make websites genuinely more useful and relevant. Then it's win-win. Their motives might be their rankings, traffic and profit, but if it improves the web for Google users, then that isn't necessarily a bad thing. But the tone of this "article" makes this guy sound like he wears a black hat.

a5seo 14y ago
Not to mention helping sites avoid crawl suicide like massively duplicating content across sites, implementing faceted nav and pagination wrong, putting core content in AJAX, generating thin pages, making Google guess which page is the canonical one, and product managers who think "hey let's republish this database of millions of items on our site with generate millions of pages."
explicitlyme 14y ago
I don't really. I do believe there is value in learning the dark side of this profession though. There aren't enough genuine SEOs that really understand both sides of the equation.
- a5seo 14y ago
  I used to agree with this, but lately I feel like any learnings are going to have a short shelf life. With the EMD updates and on-going refinements to Penguin, how long can any truly effective hack really be expected to work? I'm glad Google is cleaning house b/c it became annoying trying to counsel people to not violate the Webmaster Guidelines when they could point to successful competitors or some backwater infomercial claiming they could shortcut their way by spamming. The best strategy I've found is just to not shoot yourself in the foot in terms of site structure and IA, and invest in long-term value through link building with PR and content that naturally attracts links.
  - skulquake 14y ago
    I wish some of the "real" black hatters could come on here and speak. These guys are the ones putting together massive strategies/campaigns to rank across a wide variety of thousands of key terms. And there not writing about it. The techniques many people are talking about now were done maybe 2-3 years before this whole mess. They are so far ahead of what the "industry" is focused on it's not even funny.

CKKim 14y ago

Totally with you. I was enjoying the amusing tone of the piece but he lost my sympathy at: "Before, SEO was the game of really skilled people, you know like professional poker players. You had to know the game, know when to raise, and when to bluff." Then with the "Maybe I should find another job?" I thought this has got to be satire. Well played, sir. The way the piece is framed, the writing style, surely a work of humour?

illuminate 14y ago
From his twitter postings, I don't believe this is fake.
- CKKim 14y ago
  Ah, thanks for this and your comment elsewhere in the thread. That Twitter link, for those also intrigued: https://twitter.com/rishil https://twitter.com/rishil.
bmac27 14y ago
I agree; that last comment gives it away. I've been doing enterprise-level SEO for several years now as a day job and it's not as if algo updates are so frequent and far reaching as to make it difficult to keep up with. Most major updates from Google and the other engines are predicated on two major themes: -Rewarding relevant, informative, keyword-rich content focused on specific topics and punishing sites that construct thinly constructed (UGC or otherwise) pages, particularly those who do it in huge numbers. -Rewarding sites who links from similarly relevant, authoritative sources gained organically and punishing those who acquire links through artificial means (either through direct purchases, purchasing domain portfolios with thousands of backlinks etc.) There are nuances that are market-specific that require slightly different approaches and concentrations (e.g. health care) but those are the main things folks should concern themselves with. There's no black magic behind it unless you're doing something shady to begin with.
explicitlyme 14y ago
It was meant as humour, for other SEOs in reality. Kind of an in joke that took the hard part of our job and made it funny. Frankly, as in any industry, you have to adapt. (I am the Author of that site)

websitescenes 14y ago

Plus one. SEO is absolutely annoying. If a site is built correctly and there is interest in the service or topic the site provides, then the product will be found. Stuffing keywords into title and heading tags along with other grey area SEO techniques really devalues the internet. I see SEO along the same lines as buying domains that you think may have value and sitting on them. Games like this hinder progress and real utilization of the resources at our disposal.

dchuk 14y ago
You clearly have no idea what SEO really is.
- websitescenes 14y ago
  Of course, optimize your content so that it's easy to find and index. That's building your site correctly. All I am saying is that after market SEO is a little gimmicky because of the patchwork approach taken by many SEO specialists. As a longtime developer that has had lots of interaction with clients, I know they often spend their time worrying about SEO instead of posting good content. If a consumer isn't satisfied with search rankings and they think their site is poorly built, then they are better off contracting someone that will build it correctly the first time. Now obviously a dynamically served website has some SEO issues and needs some special attention, but this shouldn't be an after thought or third party component.
a5seo 14y ago
"if a site is built correctly" - right. That's far from a given. I can show you dozens of examples of well-funded "A list" too-cool-for-SEO developers who have no idea whatsoever what "built correctly" entails from the POV of a search engine. The role of SEO is a) Product Management to set requirements to optimize crawlability, indexing, and retrieval, or b) QA that arrives after the fact and highlights all the ways the site fails to be usable for bots. My experience is if you design things right first, it costs much less than if you don't. Plus you see the upside of your efforts quickly. But maybe some people take the attitude that "giving me traffic is Google's job" and then when they don't get organic traffic, they have to buy it. Hopefully they also enjoy raising money and giving up a big chunk of their company, too.

chatmasta 14y ago

As long as search results are determined by algorithms, there will be search engine optimization. Why? Because every algorithm can be optimized for something. And as long as search engine optimization exists, engaging in it will be a competitive advantage. Why would you NOT want your site to appear at the top of the search results for as many keywords as possible? Your job as a business owner is to bring as many customers to your business as you can. To suggest anything else is absurd. I'm happy that so many HN readers are anti-SEO, because that's less competition for me.

Bradosaur 14y ago
Just because something is good for my business, doesn't mean it's good for society. SEO (beyond actually making your site more valuable) is a classic prisoner's dilemma.
- chatmasta 14y ago
  I think this is where my views differ from many on HN. As a business owner, I will do whatever is best for my business, without regards to what is best for society. My job is not to worry about what is best for society -- that job belongs to the government. The government sets the rules and we play the game. As long as I am not breaking any laws, I will do whatever it takes to bring my business to the top. I have to do this because if I don't, somebody else will. Riding a moral high horse will only lead to my business being stampeded by others who are willing to engage in tactics I am not. This is not to say that I actively work against what's best for society. My point is that I will do what's best for my business, with regard to nothing else. I think that is what makes a good business owner. Another trait of a good business owner is the belief that his business provides the best value in its market. If you truly believe that, then by engaging in SEO to rank your business at the top of its market, you ARE doing what's best for society. If you suggest that engaging in SEO tactics to rank your business at the top is BAD for society, then you are inherently suggesting that your business does not provide the best value to its market.
  - lolcraft 14y ago