4 ms·

How the Wikileaks founder alienated his allies

38 points by rweba 14y ago

DanielBMarkham 14y ago
I've reluctantly flagged a few Assange stories on HN over the past few months. I'm a libertarian and I absolutely believe that we have too many secrets in the west. But at some point the story became about Assange and not about the issues. It was at this point that I realized that he was part of the problem and not part of the solution. You don't fix the security state with hero worship and self-promotion. You just create a different set of problems.
- stfu 14y ago
  You don't fix the security state with hero worship and self-promotion. True, but I think that is is often very strong/odd characters, who are willing to dedicate their life for "big" fights. Those causes need someone who is willing to go out, and promote the hell out of a leak. Otherwise it goes down as just another internet-only phenomenon. If you are leaking information to a 3rd party, you want the information out there and create the biggest possible effect. Otherwise you could just post it on your blog. So far only Assange has shown repeatedly, that he can deliver this exposure - and to withstand the heat. Case and point: Not a single relevant leak has reached my attention from all the split-up groups that aimed to do better than Wikileaks. The only acceptable alternative seems Cryptome who benefit for their long-time legacy.
  - belorn 14y ago
    A good example is anonymous. Are their leaks working as effective for change as Wikileaks was?
    - redthrowaway 14y ago
      The times when Anonymous and Wikileaks work together seem to produce some of the best results for both. See: Stratfor, Scientology.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "True, but I think that is is often very strong/odd characters, who are willing to dedicate their life for "big" fights" At what point does one's narcissism become more than the cause? "Case and point: Not a single relevant leak has reached my attention from all the split-up groups that aimed to do better than Wikileaks" I don't think many of Assange's sincere critics wish for Wikileaks to collapse, they want him to step down from its operations.
    - richardjordan 14y ago
      ...so is the alleged narcissism a worse wrong doing than what's being exposed? The only thing protecting Assange from having been bundled into a jet and whisked off to Guantanamo by now is his rather high personal profile. It's not like his enemies don't have a track record here...
      - illuminate 14y ago
        "...so is the alleged narcissism a worse wrong doing than what's being exposed?" No, and that's not what was stated. What he was alleged to have done would be a wrong, as are many things Wikileaks covers. Does Wikileaks require Assange to do exactly what they're doing? They don't need such a figurehead. "The only thing protecting Assange from having been bundled into a jet and whisked off to Guantanamo by now is his rather high personal profile. It's not like his enemies don't have a track record here..." The second contradicts the first, there is nothing about his high profile that protects him from being whisked off. Those forces aren't particularly concerned about the media operating independently from the governmental interests.
        richardjordan 14y ago
        Assange became a cause célèbre in the UK long enough to make it difficult to get him extradited quickly. Doesn't mean he can hold those pressures off forever. The same media which profited from his leaks is the media whose portrait of him you're choosing to accept unless you know him personally. The arguments on here are pretty much exclusively about this alleged personality.
ajays 14y ago
It is a shame, really, that Assange is such an attention whore. His being locked up in the Ecuadorian embassy is probably the best outcome that the US could have hoped for (aside from him being in a US jail). He has no one to blame but himself; power is the strongest aphrodisiac, and he let the power and attention get to him. WikiLeaks should try to just distance themselves from him and try to continue the work of being a conduit for safely exposing corruption and lies.
dmix 14y ago
After reading "This Machine Kills Secrets" [1] I have to agree with the sentiment in this blog post (although maybe not the tone): https://eeqj.com/20110113/wikileaks/ https://eeqj.com/20110113/wikileaks/ Assange should have followed the philosophy of the cypherpunk mailing list he spent so much time on in the 1990s that was all about with protecting your identity, using cryptography, being anonymous and affecting change through technology. Wikileaks used that methodology well for their whistleblowers but Assange did the opposite by being so public... and I'm not sure it was all for the best. [1] http://www.amazon.com/This-Machine-Kills-Secrets-WikiLeakers/dp/0525953205/ http://www.amazon.com/This-Machine-Kills-Secrets-WikiLeakers...
- belorn 14y ago
  The pirate bay founders are a good example of how things work. There will always be leaders. Its a key part of how society work. TPB is no exception and the founders are very well known in the world. The interesting part through is that after all the problems, TPB turn into a complete anonymous organization where leader roles are now days gone from the public.
- kiba 14y ago
  Like Satoshi Nakamoto and Bitcoin?
  - dmix 14y ago
    Also the founder of Truecrypt apparently. http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1895vl/creator_of_cryptocat_the_web_app_that_uses/c8ctb80 http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1895vl/creator_o...
kevinh 14y ago
I lost respect for Wikileaks when they started editorializing their releases. Most notably the "Collateral Murder" video. I want to be able to form conclusions for myself without being told what I should think every step of the way. Assange admitted that they spun it in such a way to maximize the political impact.
mh_ 14y ago
I see lots of Assange dislike from people, and i'm constantly reminded of misappropriated quote: "You want someone who does what i do, but you want him to behave like you." It takes a certain type of personality (and a certain type of mania/insanity) to run against the odds/world like he did.. We should accept that if it comes with some rough edges, thats kinda the price for it. Even if there are arguments over wether or not he is "a great man", it is clear that he has achieved great things, and sometimes the people who do also have great flaws..
- gaius 14y ago
  If behaving like us includes abstaining from sexual assault, sure, I want him to behave like us.
  - redthrowaway 14y ago
    For all the legitimate shots you could take at Assange, the rape charges are some of the weakest and least-founded in fact. When the prosecutor says "there's no reason to believe he's guilty of rape" and drops the charges, then 10 days later the charges are re-filed by a woman who's made it her mission to change Sweden's laws to classify many things that very clearly aren't rape as rape, that sets off my bullshit detector. I'm not one who buys into the US conspiracy angle, and I do think he should suck it up and go have his day in court, but I also don't think there's any evidence to suggest he did anything wrong.
  - richardjordan 14y ago
    I think Naomi Wolf has been one of the best articulated voices on the "rape" allegations. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/jaccuse-sweden-britain-an_b_795899.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/jaccuse-sweden-brit...
  - socialist_coder 14y ago
    Did you know Sweden has by far the highest rate of "sexual assault" in Europe? The reason? Their definition is much different than in any other country. He is not guilty of sexual assault by any sane definition.
belorn 14y ago
Many interesting points, but I have no sympathy for Daniel Domscheit-Berg who's action destroyed document given to Wikileaks for publications. Who know what dangers and effort the source went through to get the documents, only to have everything destroyed by one individual who was trusted with the files.
Tichy 14y ago
That article doesn't seem contain much meat besides Assange not liking the film the author of the article made, and a list of people who fell out with him. Bad article...
richardjordan 14y ago
One of the best ways to maintain the ability to shut down leaks is an effective campaign to isolate and persecute anyone who steps out of line. The media image of Assange has been built up by the same media who rang the drumbeats for the Iraq war and who will do the establishment's bidding. The same media who told us that Scott Ritter was not a reliable source on WMD and was probably a sex offender anyway (sound familiar?), when the former weapons inspector was dead on right. The smear campaign against him has been eagerly joined by the same newspapers (notably the Guardian whose behavior has been disgraceful) that profited from publishing the leaks in the first place. If Assange is put down, as the US government and certain allies wish, don't expect us to have someone else, whose personality you find more agreeable stepping into his place and doing the high-risk, low reward job of sticking their neck out on this stuff.
- MrScruff 14y ago
  By your own argument Assange has elevated himself above criticism by putting himself in the firing line. Any reported failing, minor or serious, can be attributed to media bias/conspiracy and safely ignored. Isn't that exactly what the article was getting at? That the wikileaks movement has turned into a personality cult where it is forbidden to express any form of doubt about dear leader? You call the job high risk, low reward. For someone that appears to exhibit strong narcissistic tendencies I would say the 'reward' has been anything but low.
  - richardjordan 14y ago
    No that doesn't follow at all. However a skepticism of attacks on whistle blowers is necessary, given the risks they take. The idea that it's a reward to be living under effective house arrest despite having no charges leveled against him because he faces the real threat of being handed over to the custody of a nation which has demonstrated its willingness to ignore laws and intern without trial for years on end its enemies, is facile.
    - MrScruff 14y ago
      I have no problem with some level of scepticism. However having read a number of articles from both sides regarding his alleged offences, I see no evidence of conspiracy. The fact that he is a celebrity cannot deter the Swedish authorities from pursuing the allegations against him.
teeja 14y ago
WikiLeaks ... guilty ... obfuscation ... misinformation ... blinkered ...cultish Considering that story lede immediately tried to sway my opinion with a swath of negative adjectives, "Jemima Can" do without me reading her screed.

38 points by rweba 14y ago

I've reluctantly flagged a few Assange stories on HN over the past few months. I'm a libertarian and I absolutely believe that we have too many secrets in the west. But at some point the story became about Assange and not about the issues. It was at this point that I realized that he was part of the problem and not part of the solution. You don't fix the security state with hero worship and self-promotion. You just create a different set of problems.

stfu 14y ago
You don't fix the security state with hero worship and self-promotion. True, but I think that is is often very strong/odd characters, who are willing to dedicate their life for "big" fights. Those causes need someone who is willing to go out, and promote the hell out of a leak. Otherwise it goes down as just another internet-only phenomenon. If you are leaking information to a 3rd party, you want the information out there and create the biggest possible effect. Otherwise you could just post it on your blog. So far only Assange has shown repeatedly, that he can deliver this exposure - and to withstand the heat. Case and point: Not a single relevant leak has reached my attention from all the split-up groups that aimed to do better than Wikileaks. The only acceptable alternative seems Cryptome who benefit for their long-time legacy.
- belorn 14y ago
  A good example is anonymous. Are their leaks working as effective for change as Wikileaks was?
  - redthrowaway 14y ago
    The times when Anonymous and Wikileaks work together seem to produce some of the best results for both. See: Stratfor, Scientology.
- illuminate 14y ago
  "True, but I think that is is often very strong/odd characters, who are willing to dedicate their life for "big" fights" At what point does one's narcissism become more than the cause? "Case and point: Not a single relevant leak has reached my attention from all the split-up groups that aimed to do better than Wikileaks" I don't think many of Assange's sincere critics wish for Wikileaks to collapse, they want him to step down from its operations.
  - richardjordan 14y ago
    ...so is the alleged narcissism a worse wrong doing than what's being exposed? The only thing protecting Assange from having been bundled into a jet and whisked off to Guantanamo by now is his rather high personal profile. It's not like his enemies don't have a track record here...
    - illuminate 14y ago
      "...so is the alleged narcissism a worse wrong doing than what's being exposed?" No, and that's not what was stated. What he was alleged to have done would be a wrong, as are many things Wikileaks covers. Does Wikileaks require Assange to do exactly what they're doing? They don't need such a figurehead. "The only thing protecting Assange from having been bundled into a jet and whisked off to Guantanamo by now is his rather high personal profile. It's not like his enemies don't have a track record here..." The second contradicts the first, there is nothing about his high profile that protects him from being whisked off. Those forces aren't particularly concerned about the media operating independently from the governmental interests.
      - richardjordan 14y ago
        Assange became a cause célèbre in the UK long enough to make it difficult to get him extradited quickly. Doesn't mean he can hold those pressures off forever. The same media which profited from his leaks is the media whose portrait of him you're choosing to accept unless you know him personally. The arguments on here are pretty much exclusively about this alleged personality.

ajays 14y ago

It is a shame, really, that Assange is such an attention whore. His being locked up in the Ecuadorian embassy is probably the best outcome that the US could have hoped for (aside from him being in a US jail). He has no one to blame but himself; power is the strongest aphrodisiac, and he let the power and attention get to him. WikiLeaks should try to just distance themselves from him and try to continue the work of being a conduit for safely exposing corruption and lies.

dmix 14y ago

After reading "This Machine Kills Secrets" [1] I have to agree with the sentiment in this blog post (although maybe not the tone): https://eeqj.com/20110113/wikileaks/ https://eeqj.com/20110113/wikileaks/ Assange should have followed the philosophy of the cypherpunk mailing list he spent so much time on in the 1990s that was all about with protecting your identity, using cryptography, being anonymous and affecting change through technology. Wikileaks used that methodology well for their whistleblowers but Assange did the opposite by being so public... and I'm not sure it was all for the best. [1] http://www.amazon.com/This-Machine-Kills-Secrets-WikiLeakers/dp/0525953205/ http://www.amazon.com/This-Machine-Kills-Secrets-WikiLeakers...

belorn 14y ago
The pirate bay founders are a good example of how things work. There will always be leaders. Its a key part of how society work. TPB is no exception and the founders are very well known in the world. The interesting part through is that after all the problems, TPB turn into a complete anonymous organization where leader roles are now days gone from the public.
kiba 14y ago
Like Satoshi Nakamoto and Bitcoin?
- dmix 14y ago
  Also the founder of Truecrypt apparently. http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1895vl/creator_of_cryptocat_the_web_app_that_uses/c8ctb80 http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1895vl/creator_o...

kevinh 14y ago

I lost respect for Wikileaks when they started editorializing their releases. Most notably the "Collateral Murder" video. I want to be able to form conclusions for myself without being told what I should think every step of the way. Assange admitted that they spun it in such a way to maximize the political impact.

mh_ 14y ago

I see lots of Assange dislike from people, and i'm constantly reminded of misappropriated quote: "You want someone who does what i do, but you want him to behave like you." It takes a certain type of personality (and a certain type of mania/insanity) to run against the odds/world like he did.. We should accept that if it comes with some rough edges, thats kinda the price for it. Even if there are arguments over wether or not he is "a great man", it is clear that he has achieved great things, and sometimes the people who do also have great flaws..

gaius 14y ago
If behaving like us includes abstaining from sexual assault, sure, I want him to behave like us.
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  For all the legitimate shots you could take at Assange, the rape charges are some of the weakest and least-founded in fact. When the prosecutor says "there's no reason to believe he's guilty of rape" and drops the charges, then 10 days later the charges are re-filed by a woman who's made it her mission to change Sweden's laws to classify many things that very clearly aren't rape as rape, that sets off my bullshit detector. I'm not one who buys into the US conspiracy angle, and I do think he should suck it up and go have his day in court, but I also don't think there's any evidence to suggest he did anything wrong.
- richardjordan 14y ago
  I think Naomi Wolf has been one of the best articulated voices on the "rape" allegations. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/jaccuse-sweden-britain-an_b_795899.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/jaccuse-sweden-brit...
- socialist_coder 14y ago
  Did you know Sweden has by far the highest rate of "sexual assault" in Europe? The reason? Their definition is much different than in any other country. He is not guilty of sexual assault by any sane definition.

belorn 14y ago

Many interesting points, but I have no sympathy for Daniel Domscheit-Berg who's action destroyed document given to Wikileaks for publications. Who know what dangers and effort the source went through to get the documents, only to have everything destroyed by one individual who was trusted with the files.

Tichy 14y ago

That article doesn't seem contain much meat besides Assange not liking the film the author of the article made, and a list of people who fell out with him. Bad article...

richardjordan 14y ago

One of the best ways to maintain the ability to shut down leaks is an effective campaign to isolate and persecute anyone who steps out of line. The media image of Assange has been built up by the same media who rang the drumbeats for the Iraq war and who will do the establishment's bidding. The same media who told us that Scott Ritter was not a reliable source on WMD and was probably a sex offender anyway (sound familiar?), when the former weapons inspector was dead on right. The smear campaign against him has been eagerly joined by the same newspapers (notably the Guardian whose behavior has been disgraceful) that profited from publishing the leaks in the first place. If Assange is put down, as the US government and certain allies wish, don't expect us to have someone else, whose personality you find more agreeable stepping into his place and doing the high-risk, low reward job of sticking their neck out on this stuff.

MrScruff 14y ago
By your own argument Assange has elevated himself above criticism by putting himself in the firing line. Any reported failing, minor or serious, can be attributed to media bias/conspiracy and safely ignored. Isn't that exactly what the article was getting at? That the wikileaks movement has turned into a personality cult where it is forbidden to express any form of doubt about dear leader? You call the job high risk, low reward. For someone that appears to exhibit strong narcissistic tendencies I would say the 'reward' has been anything but low.
- richardjordan 14y ago
  No that doesn't follow at all. However a skepticism of attacks on whistle blowers is necessary, given the risks they take. The idea that it's a reward to be living under effective house arrest despite having no charges leveled against him because he faces the real threat of being handed over to the custody of a nation which has demonstrated its willingness to ignore laws and intern without trial for years on end its enemies, is facile.
  - MrScruff 14y ago
    I have no problem with some level of scepticism. However having read a number of articles from both sides regarding his alleged offences, I see no evidence of conspiracy. The fact that he is a celebrity cannot deter the Swedish authorities from pursuing the allegations against him.

teeja 14y ago

WikiLeaks ... guilty ... obfuscation ... misinformation ... blinkered ...cultish Considering that story lede immediately tried to sway my opinion with a swath of negative adjectives, "Jemima Can" do without me reading her screed.