6 ms·

OK, time to inject some reality here, particularly in light of comments akin to "they sold all <something less than 10>" on this thread. I don't own one but wi

OK, time to inject some reality here, particularly in light of comments akin to "they sold all <something less than 10>" on this thread. I don't own one but will buy one eventually. Surface Pro is a significant step forward in the world of tablets for a number of reasons. I won't go into all of them here --and I probably haven't recognized them all yet anyway. 1- it's a design that is far more open than iPad. You can move files in and out of it and have full control of the user directory structure. Want to move a bunch of your spreadsheets, recipes, python scripts and chess games into it. No problem. You don't have an Apple-like overlord prohibiting any of that. 2- Need to install XAMPP, Python and other dev tools? No problem? 3- Want to install VMware and boot Ubuntu 12.04 LTS on a VM for a full command-line dev environment and even virtual host a few sites? No problem. 4- and, after all that work, do you want to create a restricted user account for your 5-year-old to be able to play some games and educational apps? No problem at all. 5- How about accounts for guests and friends so that they don't accidentally mess with your stuff? Yup. 6- Need more hard drive space? How about attaching an external USB hard drive and, perhaps keeping all your dev work there for easy transport to your desktop? Yup. 7- Can you use that really cool RC Flight Simulator that comes with a custom USB interface to your JR9505 transmitter? Of course you can. 8- Or, how about that receipt or business card USB scanner? 9- That neat Logithech keyboard you use on all your PC's? Of course. 10- can you run SolidWorks, AutoCAD, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Dreamweaver, CuteFTP, Komodo, WinForth, Keil, Eclipse, Photoshop, Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Fritz and a whole host of other software you might already be using for fun and work? Sure looks that way. Yeah. Exactly. Just like an iPad.

forman 14y ago
It's a compromise between an ultra book and a tablet. If you tout its ultra book qualities you can make it look like it trumps a tablet. If you tout its tablet qualities you can make it look like it trumps an ultra book. The real issue is that as an ultra book it compares poorly to other ultra books and as a tablet it compare poorly to other tablets.
- rlu 14y ago
  Gonna go ahead and say that I've almost completely stopped using my Samsung Series 9 (amazing, beautiful ultrabook) ever since I got my Surface RT. It works fine on my lap and it's a great computer (Pro of course even MORE so). The only use case that a normal laptop runs circles around it is when you're laying in bed and need to use the keyboard. I agree with grandparent, though I do see what you're saying. Yes: there is compromise when getting a Surface. But, I honestly have a great laptop experience and a great tablet experience. I'm perfectly happy with it and wouldn't go back to using two separate devices.
  - trimbo 14y ago
    How do you get it to work fine on your lap? I've tried it with the kickstand and it's very unsteady. Did you buy an accessory?
    - jasonlotito 14y ago
      I don't own one, but what is it's footprint like with the keyboard and kickstand? Compared to other laptops?
    - rlu 14y ago
      I didn't really have to try...it just worked? I usually have the kickstand be at the end of my knees - any further and it would be close to falling off(!) but that places the keyboard in a good spot. And sure, it's more unsteady than on a table and perhaps I look a little silly - but as far as typing speed is concerned, it's really a non issue.
- gamblor956 14y ago
  True, but the point of the Surface Pro and future ultratablets is that the user is willing to accept that it does not do either ultrabook or tablet as well as its competitors but can do both as the situation demands.
- dragontamer 14y ago
  Well a smartphone compares poorly to dumbphones as a phone (significantly worse battery life. Lack of consistent physical buttons such as "disconnect current call", less reliable, much larger / less portable than a dumbphone, generally more expensive as well). Smartphones compare poorly to tablets as a tablet (too small a screen for serious media viewing, generally underpowered compared to Tablet CPUs). But because a smartphone can do both, it has become a useful device. That said, of the convertables, the Surface isn't actually on my shortlist anymore. Lenovo Helix and XPS Duo 12 look superior to the Surface. But I'm not against the concept of a combined device.
dragontamer 14y ago
Windows 8 Pro comes with Microsoft's Hyper-V virtualization. http://www.modern.ie/virtualization-tools http://www.modern.ie/virtualization-tools So no need to install VMWare anymore.
- robomartin 14y ago
  Very cool. I, almost exclusively, use "raw" Linux (meaning: no GUI installed, just command line). I'd be a trip to have it available on a tablet.
  - benaiah 14y ago
    You can already get almost exactly that on Android, which has convertible laptops such as the Asus Transformer Prime already available.
    - dragontamer 14y ago
      Oh, you can set up and test a Linux cluster on Android? Can you use snapshots in the middle of a GDB debugging process and then restore it when you've "stepped past the bug" and need to go back? What kind of Virtualization do you have to use to get that? Come on, real computers, with real virtualization is an absolute boon to programming productivity. Toy systems like Android and iOS just aren't there yet. I don't think there is any virtualization platform available for ARM either.
      - benaiah 14y ago
        Considering you can install Ubuntu on several Android tablets, then your stretch goals are technically achievable. In terms of everything else, I don't know specifically, but probably. It's a full Linux kernel with root access, so virtually anything is doable. In terms of performance, no, I don't think that any mainstream Android device can do virtualization - but that's a hardware problem. I hope you don't misinterpret me - I love the Surface, and I want one very badly. I was just pointing out that you can get a command-line Linux on a tablet, and have been able to for some time. EDIT: Look at my other comment in this same thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5194554 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5194554 I'm not arguing that Android is a replacement for a real OS, by any means. But my limited statement, that you can get command-line Linux on a tablet, was correct.
hospadam 14y ago
Here's the thing... every item on your list is laptop specific. I just don't see how it being on the Surface Pro does you any good? Ultimately - you're paying $900-$1000 - and (from what you've written) you're going to use it exactly like a laptop. At that point... aren't there better laptops for your money?
- bosie 14y ago
  which laptop at $1000 can rotate its touchscreen by 90 degrees? only one i can think of right now is the msi slider
  - dscrd 14y ago
    Asus Transformer.
    - benaiah 14y ago
      Runs Android, not a full OS with access to the kind of stuff the surface has access to. He's talking about $1000 laptops running a full-featured OS.
      - dscrd 14y ago
        Asus Transformer running Ubuntu? :) Admittedly, you cannot get that off the shelf...
- nilkn 14y ago
  I've had a Macbook Air for a while now and my problem with the Surface is simply that I've never once desired to have a touchscreen on my little laptop. The large trackpad and keyboard are superior to a touch interface in almost every way for me. I have an iPad that my parents got for me, and I struggle to force myself to use it because the entire touch interface seems inferior. Every time I lay down in bed with my iPad, I end up regretting it as soon as I have to type anything or use a website that doesn't have a really well-engineered mobile version or iPad app. The touch interface seems ideal on much smaller devices, like phones, where it's not even remotely feasible to have a keyboard and a trackpad. I personally don't understand the desire to transfer it to larger devices, though. The one major saving grace of touch-centric devices like the iPad, IMHO, is that it has made computing and the internet more accessible to people who otherwise wouldn't have learned to use traditional interfaces for whatever reason.
thedrbrian 14y ago
You won't be don't much with solidworks or autocad with the crappy intel 4000 graphics card nor will the battery last anywhere near the 10 hours of the iPad. The surface pro is stretch between a laptop and a tablet and ends up as a master of none EDIT:will we ever see any numbers from Microsoft or will we always be stuck with the amazon style multiplier?
- wlesieutre 14y ago
  The HD 4000's performance in AutoCAD is not far below common discrete cards. Keep in mind, the graph here is showing it against desktop cards, and it comes in slightly under the Radeon HD 7750. That's a $100 budget gaming card. For 2D CAD (still fairly common in architecture, I can't speak to other industries), the benchmark is almost identical across the board. So no, it can't match the performance of a GTX 680. And I doubt it handles complicated models very well. But it's by no means incapable of light CAD work, especially compared to laptops. http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/AutoDesk-AutoCAD-2013-GPU-Acceleration-164 http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/AutoDesk-AutoCAD-2...
coldtea 14y ago
The whole list of things you added is a step BACKWARDS from the iPad and Android Tablets. It means relying on old desktop paradigms and having a sub-par tablet experience. If you want to run Windows and it's software on something portable (which, by the list you provide, you do) get an ultra-portable. Even a MB Air will do. But if you want a tablet, get a real tablet, that pushes the envelope forward for how to work on that form factor.
- dragontamer 14y ago
  This sort of statement reminds me of what people used to say about the first smartphones. Want a phone? Get a more portable, smaller Razr (the original one). Want a PDA? Get a real PDA, like a Palm Pilot. Why should we create "PDA-phones" (aka, what smartphones were called back then), when PDAs do PDA things better, and Real Phones do the phone part better?
- robomartin 14y ago
  Nope. It's a huge step forward. It means that I would have a tablet with full PC capabilities, including the option to runLinux through virtualization. Major woody. The fact that I listed these thing doesn't necessarily mean I would personally use it that way. As an example, if I had a meeting where I needed to work with Solidworks files I'd far more inclined to take one of my big laptops with the 17 inch screen. My intent was to simply illustrate the range of possibilities in order to drive a point.
  - roc 14y ago
    It means you'd have exactly the type of "tablet" that Micrsoft has gone nowhere with, for the last decade-plus. How is the Surface any different than a straight-forward iteration on a Win7 tablet? A neat keyboard for the slate form-factor? Marginally more touch-friendly software before it dumps you into an interface built for kb/m? For the last decade or so, some people have been well-served by such devices. This one is no different in that respect. But it is simply not a step forward. It's a stubborn refusal to step in even the same general direction as more-popular tablets.
  - 14y ago
InclinedPlane 14y ago
11- You can install linux on it as the sole OS. 12- You can run IIS, apache, nginx, rails, node.js (on windows or linux) and serve content off it (either as a test server or as a production server, if you really want).
rayiner 14y ago
Okay. So I don't own one and don't plan to, and here is why: > 1- it's a design that is far more open than iPad. You can move files in and out of it and have full control of the user directory structure. Want to move a bunch of your spreadsheets, recipes, python scripts and chess games into it. No problem. You don't have an Apple-like overlord prohibiting any of that. I don't want to control my tablet's directory structure. As long as I can put my files on it (and I can) I'm good. > 2- Need to install XAMPP, Python and other dev tools? No problem? I can do that, better, on my laptop. > 3- Want to install VMware and boot Ubuntu 12.04 LTS on a VM for a full command-line dev environment and even virtual host a few sites? No problem. I can do that, better, on my laptop. > 4- and, after all that work, do you want to create a restricted user account for your 5-year-old to be able to play some games and educational apps? No problem at all. I'm going to hand my $1000 Surface Pro to my five year old? The five year old is getting a $200 Nexus 7, which is rubberized and cheap enough that I don't care when he puts it in the sink. > 5- How about accounts for guests and friends so that they don't accidentally mess with your stuff? Yup. Have you seen how my wife treats electronics? I can't say I didn't have notice--when I met her her computer was a netbook with three keys missing--but there is no way in hell she's touching my Surface Pro. No, she's getting an iPad, which I don't care when she puts it in the sink. > 6- Need more hard drive space? How about attaching an external USB hard drive and, perhaps keeping all your dev work there for easy transport to your desktop? Yup. Dropbox + Wifi? > 7- Can you use that really cool RC Flight Simulator that comes with a custom USB interface to your JR9505 transmitter? Of course you can. Why would I want to run this on my tablet? > 8- Or, how about that receipt or business card USB scanner? They have ones that connect to WiFi now. > 9- That neat Logithech keyboard you use on all your PC's? Of course. Bluetooth. > 10- can you run SolidWorks, AutoCAD, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Dreamweaver, CuteFTP, Komodo, WinForth, Keil, Eclipse, Photoshop, Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Fritz and a whole host of other software you might already be using for fun and work? Sure looks that way. I wouldn't want to run half of those on a tiny 10" screen, and the other half have perfectly good iPad replacements.
- robomartin 14y ago
  OK then. Don't buy one. Are you married to my wife's sister? Did yours pour a full glass of orange juice into your HP calculator? Nearly had a heart attack. Took the batteries out. Dunked it in clean water and put it out in the sun to dry. Still working like a champ many, many years later.
majormajor 14y ago
The Surface Pro looks a little before its time (heat and weight-wise), but I agree with almost all of this. Currently I've got a little Kindle Fire HD (better speakers than the Nexus) for watching videos on the go. I've got a MBP for doing "real work" on around the apartment. But when I travel, I'd love something that lets me do the work, using the tools I already know, while also being usable as a tablet for content consumption and note-taking (the active digitizer is a really nice bonus). iPads aren't cheap, and I can't imagine paying that much for something that can't do the duty of a laptop in a pinch. The ThinkPad Helix also looks very interesting. IMO this is an instance of Microsoft being the ones skating to where the puck is going to be.

forman 14y ago

It's a compromise between an ultra book and a tablet. If you tout its ultra book qualities you can make it look like it trumps a tablet. If you tout its tablet qualities you can make it look like it trumps an ultra book. The real issue is that as an ultra book it compares poorly to other ultra books and as a tablet it compare poorly to other tablets.

rlu 14y ago
Gonna go ahead and say that I've almost completely stopped using my Samsung Series 9 (amazing, beautiful ultrabook) ever since I got my Surface RT. It works fine on my lap and it's a great computer (Pro of course even MORE so). The only use case that a normal laptop runs circles around it is when you're laying in bed and need to use the keyboard. I agree with grandparent, though I do see what you're saying. Yes: there is compromise when getting a Surface. But, I honestly have a great laptop experience and a great tablet experience. I'm perfectly happy with it and wouldn't go back to using two separate devices.
- trimbo 14y ago
  How do you get it to work fine on your lap? I've tried it with the kickstand and it's very unsteady. Did you buy an accessory?
  - jasonlotito 14y ago
    I don't own one, but what is it's footprint like with the keyboard and kickstand? Compared to other laptops?
  - rlu 14y ago
    I didn't really have to try...it just worked? I usually have the kickstand be at the end of my knees - any further and it would be close to falling off(!) but that places the keyboard in a good spot. And sure, it's more unsteady than on a table and perhaps I look a little silly - but as far as typing speed is concerned, it's really a non issue.
gamblor956 14y ago
True, but the point of the Surface Pro and future ultratablets is that the user is willing to accept that it does not do either ultrabook or tablet as well as its competitors but can do both as the situation demands.
dragontamer 14y ago
Well a smartphone compares poorly to dumbphones as a phone (significantly worse battery life. Lack of consistent physical buttons such as "disconnect current call", less reliable, much larger / less portable than a dumbphone, generally more expensive as well). Smartphones compare poorly to tablets as a tablet (too small a screen for serious media viewing, generally underpowered compared to Tablet CPUs). But because a smartphone can do both, it has become a useful device. That said, of the convertables, the Surface isn't actually on my shortlist anymore. Lenovo Helix and XPS Duo 12 look superior to the Surface. But I'm not against the concept of a combined device.

dragontamer 14y ago

Windows 8 Pro comes with Microsoft's Hyper-V virtualization. http://www.modern.ie/virtualization-tools http://www.modern.ie/virtualization-tools So no need to install VMWare anymore.

robomartin 14y ago
Very cool. I, almost exclusively, use "raw" Linux (meaning: no GUI installed, just command line). I'd be a trip to have it available on a tablet.
- benaiah 14y ago
  You can already get almost exactly that on Android, which has convertible laptops such as the Asus Transformer Prime already available.
  - dragontamer 14y ago
    Oh, you can set up and test a Linux cluster on Android? Can you use snapshots in the middle of a GDB debugging process and then restore it when you've "stepped past the bug" and need to go back? What kind of Virtualization do you have to use to get that? Come on, real computers, with real virtualization is an absolute boon to programming productivity. Toy systems like Android and iOS just aren't there yet. I don't think there is any virtualization platform available for ARM either.
    - benaiah 14y ago
      Considering you can install Ubuntu on several Android tablets, then your stretch goals are technically achievable. In terms of everything else, I don't know specifically, but probably. It's a full Linux kernel with root access, so virtually anything is doable. In terms of performance, no, I don't think that any mainstream Android device can do virtualization - but that's a hardware problem. I hope you don't misinterpret me - I love the Surface, and I want one very badly. I was just pointing out that you can get a command-line Linux on a tablet, and have been able to for some time. EDIT: Look at my other comment in this same thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5194554 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5194554 I'm not arguing that Android is a replacement for a real OS, by any means. But my limited statement, that you can get command-line Linux on a tablet, was correct.

hospadam 14y ago

Here's the thing... every item on your list is laptop specific. I just don't see how it being on the Surface Pro does you any good? Ultimately - you're paying $900-$1000 - and (from what you've written) you're going to use it exactly like a laptop. At that point... aren't there better laptops for your money?

bosie 14y ago
which laptop at $1000 can rotate its touchscreen by 90 degrees? only one i can think of right now is the msi slider
- dscrd 14y ago
  Asus Transformer.
  - benaiah 14y ago
    Runs Android, not a full OS with access to the kind of stuff the surface has access to. He's talking about $1000 laptops running a full-featured OS.
    - dscrd 14y ago
      Asus Transformer running Ubuntu? :) Admittedly, you cannot get that off the shelf...
nilkn 14y ago
I've had a Macbook Air for a while now and my problem with the Surface is simply that I've never once desired to have a touchscreen on my little laptop. The large trackpad and keyboard are superior to a touch interface in almost every way for me. I have an iPad that my parents got for me, and I struggle to force myself to use it because the entire touch interface seems inferior. Every time I lay down in bed with my iPad, I end up regretting it as soon as I have to type anything or use a website that doesn't have a really well-engineered mobile version or iPad app. The touch interface seems ideal on much smaller devices, like phones, where it's not even remotely feasible to have a keyboard and a trackpad. I personally don't understand the desire to transfer it to larger devices, though. The one major saving grace of touch-centric devices like the iPad, IMHO, is that it has made computing and the internet more accessible to people who otherwise wouldn't have learned to use traditional interfaces for whatever reason.

thedrbrian 14y ago

You won't be don't much with solidworks or autocad with the crappy intel 4000 graphics card nor will the battery last anywhere near the 10 hours of the iPad. The surface pro is stretch between a laptop and a tablet and ends up as a master of none EDIT:will we ever see any numbers from Microsoft or will we always be stuck with the amazon style multiplier?

wlesieutre 14y ago
The HD 4000's performance in AutoCAD is not far below common discrete cards. Keep in mind, the graph here is showing it against desktop cards, and it comes in slightly under the Radeon HD 7750. That's a $100 budget gaming card. For 2D CAD (still fairly common in architecture, I can't speak to other industries), the benchmark is almost identical across the board. So no, it can't match the performance of a GTX 680. And I doubt it handles complicated models very well. But it's by no means incapable of light CAD work, especially compared to laptops. http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/AutoDesk-AutoCAD-2013-GPU-Acceleration-164 http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/AutoDesk-AutoCAD-2...

coldtea 14y ago

The whole list of things you added is a step BACKWARDS from the iPad and Android Tablets. It means relying on old desktop paradigms and having a sub-par tablet experience. If you want to run Windows and it's software on something portable (which, by the list you provide, you do) get an ultra-portable. Even a MB Air will do. But if you want a tablet, get a real tablet, that pushes the envelope forward for how to work on that form factor.

dragontamer 14y ago
This sort of statement reminds me of what people used to say about the first smartphones. Want a phone? Get a more portable, smaller Razr (the original one). Want a PDA? Get a real PDA, like a Palm Pilot. Why should we create "PDA-phones" (aka, what smartphones were called back then), when PDAs do PDA things better, and Real Phones do the phone part better?
robomartin 14y ago
Nope. It's a huge step forward. It means that I would have a tablet with full PC capabilities, including the option to runLinux through virtualization. Major woody. The fact that I listed these thing doesn't necessarily mean I would personally use it that way. As an example, if I had a meeting where I needed to work with Solidworks files I'd far more inclined to take one of my big laptops with the 17 inch screen. My intent was to simply illustrate the range of possibilities in order to drive a point.
- roc 14y ago
  It means you'd have exactly the type of "tablet" that Micrsoft has gone nowhere with, for the last decade-plus. How is the Surface any different than a straight-forward iteration on a Win7 tablet? A neat keyboard for the slate form-factor? Marginally more touch-friendly software before it dumps you into an interface built for kb/m? For the last decade or so, some people have been well-served by such devices. This one is no different in that respect. But it is simply not a step forward. It's a stubborn refusal to step in even the same general direction as more-popular tablets.
- 14y ago

InclinedPlane 14y ago

11- You can install linux on it as the sole OS. 12- You can run IIS, apache, nginx, rails, node.js (on windows or linux) and serve content off it (either as a test server or as a production server, if you really want).

rayiner 14y ago

Okay. So I don't own one and don't plan to, and here is why: > 1- it's a design that is far more open than iPad. You can move files in and out of it and have full control of the user directory structure. Want to move a bunch of your spreadsheets, recipes, python scripts and chess games into it. No problem. You don't have an Apple-like overlord prohibiting any of that. I don't want to control my tablet's directory structure. As long as I can put my files on it (and I can) I'm good. > 2- Need to install XAMPP, Python and other dev tools? No problem? I can do that, better, on my laptop. > 3- Want to install VMware and boot Ubuntu 12.04 LTS on a VM for a full command-line dev environment and even virtual host a few sites? No problem. I can do that, better, on my laptop. > 4- and, after all that work, do you want to create a restricted user account for your 5-year-old to be able to play some games and educational apps? No problem at all. I'm going to hand my $1000 Surface Pro to my five year old? The five year old is getting a $200 Nexus 7, which is rubberized and cheap enough that I don't care when he puts it in the sink. > 5- How about accounts for guests and friends so that they don't accidentally mess with your stuff? Yup. Have you seen how my wife treats electronics? I can't say I didn't have notice--when I met her her computer was a netbook with three keys missing--but there is no way in hell she's touching my Surface Pro. No, she's getting an iPad, which I don't care when she puts it in the sink. > 6- Need more hard drive space? How about attaching an external USB hard drive and, perhaps keeping all your dev work there for easy transport to your desktop? Yup. Dropbox + Wifi? > 7- Can you use that really cool RC Flight Simulator that comes with a custom USB interface to your JR9505 transmitter? Of course you can. Why would I want to run this on my tablet? > 8- Or, how about that receipt or business card USB scanner? They have ones that connect to WiFi now. > 9- That neat Logithech keyboard you use on all your PC's? Of course. Bluetooth. > 10- can you run SolidWorks, AutoCAD, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Dreamweaver, CuteFTP, Komodo, WinForth, Keil, Eclipse, Photoshop, Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Fritz and a whole host of other software you might already be using for fun and work? Sure looks that way. I wouldn't want to run half of those on a tiny 10" screen, and the other half have perfectly good iPad replacements.

robomartin 14y ago
OK then. Don't buy one. Are you married to my wife's sister? Did yours pour a full glass of orange juice into your HP calculator? Nearly had a heart attack. Took the batteries out. Dunked it in clean water and put it out in the sun to dry. Still working like a champ many, many years later.

majormajor 14y ago

The Surface Pro looks a little before its time (heat and weight-wise), but I agree with almost all of this. Currently I've got a little Kindle Fire HD (better speakers than the Nexus) for watching videos on the go. I've got a MBP for doing "real work" on around the apartment. But when I travel, I'd love something that lets me do the work, using the tools I already know, while also being usable as a tablet for content consumption and note-taking (the active digitizer is a really nice bonus). iPads aren't cheap, and I can't imagine paying that much for something that can't do the duty of a laptop in a pinch. The ThinkPad Helix also looks very interesting. IMO this is an instance of Microsoft being the ones skating to where the puck is going to be.