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Ask HN: Increasing Karma Implies Decreasing Variance?

23 points by patrocles 18y ago

Using # of posts / time period as a proxy for variety (big maybe), does Robin Hanson's question withstand scrutiny using HN posting data?

swombat 18y ago
Anyone who's followed some of my threads here know that I don't shy away from controversial arguments (some of which got downmodded to hell), despite being in the top 15 on the leaderboard. Let me be clear - I clearly do enjoy the game of accumulating karma points, but I enjoy the game of speaking my mind far more. I've seen plenty of controversial arguments (some of which got downmodded to hell too) from other "high karma" people, so I don't think this is a problem here, though it may be a problem in other communities.
- unalone 18y ago
  Some high karma people are there because they trigger controversy. mattmaroon comes to mind. And I don't know if I count as a high-karma user but I'm on the leaderboard, and I think that most of my karma comes only from controversial discussions. So far, I've seen very few HN users who have high karma because they're gaming the system. We're too small to have high karma matter much, so a lot of people just try their damndest to contribute to the community - and in a community of thinkers and designers, that usually means speaking your mind rather than conforming.
  - mariorz 18y ago
    Most of the users in the leaderboard are there by the sheer amount of their posts rather than by being particularly insightful or controversial.
    - unalone 18y ago
      I've seen one or two users who are very active but don't get many upvotes. On the other hand, there's a guy like patio11, whose every comment gets something like a hundred upvotes. So I'd guess that quality plays a part.
      - mariorz 18y ago
        Yes, post quality is one of the factors. My point is that of course there is plenty of gaming going on and it's of the simplest form. The leaderboard only encourages this gaming mentality.
        unalone 18y ago
        It does, and I wish we didn't have it. (I also wish we didn't display post score. I don't know what it provides as a benefit.)
        mariorz 18y ago
        >(I also wish we didn't display post score. I don't know what it provides as a benefit.) That would be an interesting experiment. However, I think it does provide a certain use, which is getting a sense of how people are perceiving the discussion. Like the audience clapping or booing during a debate.
        staunch 18y ago
        I would rather know what other people think after I decide what I think. Nothing is contributing to groupthink on this site more than the fact that we don't use blind voting.
        unalone 18y ago
        That's what I was thinking. I hate seeing what other people think of opinions before I see them. Furthermore, they offer an "equalling" incentive: perhaps I'm the only person here that thinks like this, but if I see two points, and they're both well-argued, but the one I disagree with is rated higher than the one I like, I'll either vote up the one and not the other, or, if the one I disagree with is very highly rated, I'll vote it down to bump the one I like higher. The psychological impact of seeing the point I made go higher is one that modifies my voting patterns, which I don't like.
    - Radix 18y ago
      I don't know, i tend to glance at the posters name and I recognize both 'swombat' and 'unalone' because I expect them to say something interesting. I don't think I would remember them if I didn't expect their comments to be good, even though they do post frequently.
    - staunch 18y ago
      The leaderboard is about the number of story submissions more than comments.
      - adrianwaj 18y ago
        Yeah, would be cool to a see a split of submission points and comment points.
  - ilaksh 18y ago
    Sorry but I don't see an arrow for downmodding. What are you talking about? I thought there was only upmodding on HN?
    - unalone 18y ago
      Once you get to a certain number you'll see the downmod arrows for commenting. It's around 2,000 points or so?* *Not really, more like 50.
time_management 18y ago
I don't think it applies to Hacker News, because no one "games" karma, and having a high score doesn't seem to give anyone special influence over site content. Wikipedia certainly has this problem, though. It seems to appeal to those with the petty-tyrant mentality, too.
quizbiz 18y ago
The simple answer is no. Case sample: Rush Limbaugh An interesting theory.
- diN0bot 18y ago
  Rush Limbaugh is not an influential individual. He is part of what is essentially an orchestrated system for conveying (conventional) right-wing ideology. Ever wonder why different news people during the day hit upon the same topic? I kid you not.
  - unalone 18y ago
    I'd disagree with you there. It's not an orchestrated system. They all just follow the same blind ideology, and as a result their ideas stem from the same talking points. Rush is extremely influential. But then, he's not controversial. A large part of the country wants exactly what he's peddling: black-and-white ideology.
adrianwaj 18y ago
Would some please explain how the article's actual headline: Do influential people develop more conventional opinions? led to this being a Ask HN question. Is the question suggesting that more karma = more conformity with mainstream views?

23 points by patrocles 18y ago

Using # of posts / time period as a proxy for variety (big maybe), does Robin Hanson's question withstand scrutiny using HN posting data?

swombat 18y ago

Anyone who's followed some of my threads here know that I don't shy away from controversial arguments (some of which got downmodded to hell), despite being in the top 15 on the leaderboard. Let me be clear - I clearly do enjoy the game of accumulating karma points, but I enjoy the game of speaking my mind far more. I've seen plenty of controversial arguments (some of which got downmodded to hell too) from other "high karma" people, so I don't think this is a problem here, though it may be a problem in other communities.

unalone 18y ago
Some high karma people are there because they trigger controversy. mattmaroon comes to mind. And I don't know if I count as a high-karma user but I'm on the leaderboard, and I think that most of my karma comes only from controversial discussions. So far, I've seen very few HN users who have high karma because they're gaming the system. We're too small to have high karma matter much, so a lot of people just try their damndest to contribute to the community - and in a community of thinkers and designers, that usually means speaking your mind rather than conforming.
- mariorz 18y ago
  Most of the users in the leaderboard are there by the sheer amount of their posts rather than by being particularly insightful or controversial.
  - unalone 18y ago
    I've seen one or two users who are very active but don't get many upvotes. On the other hand, there's a guy like patio11, whose every comment gets something like a hundred upvotes. So I'd guess that quality plays a part.
    - mariorz 18y ago
      Yes, post quality is one of the factors. My point is that of course there is plenty of gaming going on and it's of the simplest form. The leaderboard only encourages this gaming mentality.
      - unalone 18y ago
        It does, and I wish we didn't have it. (I also wish we didn't display post score. I don't know what it provides as a benefit.)
        mariorz 18y ago
        >(I also wish we didn't display post score. I don't know what it provides as a benefit.) That would be an interesting experiment. However, I think it does provide a certain use, which is getting a sense of how people are perceiving the discussion. Like the audience clapping or booing during a debate.
        staunch 18y ago
        I would rather know what other people think after I decide what I think. Nothing is contributing to groupthink on this site more than the fact that we don't use blind voting.
        unalone 18y ago
        That's what I was thinking. I hate seeing what other people think of opinions before I see them. Furthermore, they offer an "equalling" incentive: perhaps I'm the only person here that thinks like this, but if I see two points, and they're both well-argued, but the one I disagree with is rated higher than the one I like, I'll either vote up the one and not the other, or, if the one I disagree with is very highly rated, I'll vote it down to bump the one I like higher. The psychological impact of seeing the point I made go higher is one that modifies my voting patterns, which I don't like.
  - Radix 18y ago
    I don't know, i tend to glance at the posters name and I recognize both 'swombat' and 'unalone' because I expect them to say something interesting. I don't think I would remember them if I didn't expect their comments to be good, even though they do post frequently.
  - staunch 18y ago
    The leaderboard is about the number of story submissions more than comments.
    - adrianwaj 18y ago
      Yeah, would be cool to a see a split of submission points and comment points.
- ilaksh 18y ago
  Sorry but I don't see an arrow for downmodding. What are you talking about? I thought there was only upmodding on HN?
  - unalone 18y ago
    Once you get to a certain number you'll see the downmod arrows for commenting. It's around 2,000 points or so?* *Not really, more like 50.

time_management 18y ago

I don't think it applies to Hacker News, because no one "games" karma, and having a high score doesn't seem to give anyone special influence over site content. Wikipedia certainly has this problem, though. It seems to appeal to those with the petty-tyrant mentality, too.

quizbiz 18y ago

The simple answer is no. Case sample: Rush Limbaugh An interesting theory.

diN0bot 18y ago
Rush Limbaugh is not an influential individual. He is part of what is essentially an orchestrated system for conveying (conventional) right-wing ideology. Ever wonder why different news people during the day hit upon the same topic? I kid you not.
- unalone 18y ago
  I'd disagree with you there. It's not an orchestrated system. They all just follow the same blind ideology, and as a result their ideas stem from the same talking points. Rush is extremely influential. But then, he's not controversial. A large part of the country wants exactly what he's peddling: black-and-white ideology.

adrianwaj 18y ago

Would some please explain how the article's actual headline: Do influential people develop more conventional opinions? led to this being a Ask HN question. Is the question suggesting that more karma = more conformity with mainstream views?