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Are they being prosecuted for tax evasion? If not, sounds like they are paying their bill. Take it up with your politicians.

louischatriot 14y ago
That's a pretty hyprocritical statement. Big companies know how to legally pay almost no taxes, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement And that's probably not "our" politicians who are to blame.
- icelancer 14y ago
  >legally So it sounds to me like they are paying their tax bill. The fact that it's not as high as vacri or you may like is not their fault.
  - rednukleus 14y ago
    Big corporations lobby to have tax laws that result in a low tax liability for themselves. Tax laws for large multinational corporations are also tend to get into grey areas, where it's hard to tell if something is legal or not (not saying Apple are necessarily in that grey area). The fact that big multinationals are not paying as much tax as many people think is fair is undeniably the fault of both those companies and politicians.
    - icelancer 14y ago
      The corporations are just acting on their incentives. The opportunity exists, therefore they're going to take advantage of it. Returning maximum value to shareholders is something that most (all?) corporations are trying to do. To not take advantage of government loopholes would be neglecting fiduciary duty. It's not the corporation's job to police morality. That responsibility theoretically belongs to the state. If they're inept and/or corrupt, so be it.
      - rednukleus 14y ago
        > To not take advantage of government loopholes would be neglecting fiduciary duty. Not true. Taking advantage of loopholes is sometimes illegal, and sometimes a grey area. > If they're inept and/or corrupt, so be it. So why don't we all just give up then? Companies have a duty to earn as much money as possible regardless of morality, lobbying to get whatever laws changed they feel like in the process, and politicians can do whatever they want once they are elected. In my view letting corporations determine law, law determine morality, and accepting it without complaining is an exceptionally bad idea.
        icelancer 14y ago
        > In my view letting corporations determine law, law determine morality, and accepting it without complaining is an exceptionally bad idea. I absolutely agree. But as I said prior in the thread, expecting private corporations to not act in their best interest is like arguing against gravity.
  - logn 14y ago
    This attitude is annoying. They're forming overseas shell corporations with at most a few employees in those offices who claim an extremely high percentage of all IP-derived income. To claim these companies aren't doing anything illegal, simply because we can't prove that a few people in Ireland aren't responsible for all IP, isn't quite fair. Just because you've arranged fancy license agreements with your Ireland offices doesn't mean those contracts are valid or conscionable. These companies pay almost no taxes yet feed off our public universities, court systems, patent and trademark offices, copyright offices, public airwaves, highways, federal banking infrastructure, etc. It's sick.
    - tedunangst 14y ago
      And all of the Apple employees driving on those highways pay income tax.
      - logn 14y ago
        Those employees would be paying income tax at any job. The benefit is squarely to Apple owners. I really don't get the attitude of people who defend these companies paying almost no taxes. The same people must support billionaires paying 10% tax while the rest of us pay 25%+.
        gte910h 14y ago
        There is a scheme in Australia where you don't have a separate cap gains rate, but you get direct credits for actual tax paid by a corporation. That could work out wonderfully in the US: The rich would pay taxes, somehow then.
    - icelancer 14y ago
      > These companies pay almost no taxes yet feed off our public universities, court systems, patent and trademark offices, copyright offices, public airwaves, highways, federal banking infrastructure, etc. It's sick. You misunderstand me. I absolutely agree that it's sick. But it is 100% legal because the government allows it to occur. If you are expecting private organizations to not act in their own interest, you're basically fighting gravity.
- dageshi 14y ago
  Once a tax system becomes so complicated that you need entire departments of people to work out what the "correct" amount of tax to pay is, you make tax susceptible to optomisation the same as any other part of a business.
- 27182818284 14y ago
  The keyword there is legally. Not morally, ethically, according-to-you-ly, etc. And that's what it comes down to. If you want it another way, well, the laws need to be changed.
vacri 14y ago
Did you even bother reading the article? The very first sentence is about a politician pointing this problem out in Parliament. Hell, that a politician is involved is even in the HN-visible part of the URL.
- icelancer 14y ago
  Your argument is that they aren't paying their tax bill. That's just factually incorrect. I don't know what to tell you.
  - vacri 14y ago
    You replied with the incredibly intellectually lazy "take it up with your politicians", which is exactly what the article describes is happening, but were too lazy to bother reading even the first sentence of. The politicians are questioning the tax issue, and are implying that there is something fishy in the way Apple does their tax - the MP in question thinks that they are not paying their proper tax bill as a result.
bnegreve 14y ago
>The fact that it's not as high as vacri or you may like is not their fault. Lobbying (also lobby) is the act of attempting to influence decisions made by officials in the government [...] [1] It works pretty well when you are as big as Apple. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying
- icelancer 14y ago
  What is stopping the government from saying: "No, too bad. Pay X amount of taxes instead of the proposed X-Y taxes."
  - Scriptor 14y ago
    Because "the government" is composed of the same people being lobbied to by Apple.
    - icelancer 14y ago
      Yes. That's the point. We elect those people. We get what we deserve.
  - calbear81 14y ago
    If governments make ex post facto changes to the tax law, you create a volatile business environment that turns off new investments especially from overseas investors. This is why countries that nationalize previously private enterprises without notice end up screwing up foreign investment. Who wants to start a company in X country if at any time they can say "No, too bad. Pay me 90% in taxes now."

louischatriot 14y ago

That's a pretty hyprocritical statement. Big companies know how to legally pay almost no taxes, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement And that's probably not "our" politicians who are to blame.

icelancer 14y ago
>legally So it sounds to me like they are paying their tax bill. The fact that it's not as high as vacri or you may like is not their fault.
- rednukleus 14y ago
  Big corporations lobby to have tax laws that result in a low tax liability for themselves. Tax laws for large multinational corporations are also tend to get into grey areas, where it's hard to tell if something is legal or not (not saying Apple are necessarily in that grey area). The fact that big multinationals are not paying as much tax as many people think is fair is undeniably the fault of both those companies and politicians.
  - icelancer 14y ago
    The corporations are just acting on their incentives. The opportunity exists, therefore they're going to take advantage of it. Returning maximum value to shareholders is something that most (all?) corporations are trying to do. To not take advantage of government loopholes would be neglecting fiduciary duty. It's not the corporation's job to police morality. That responsibility theoretically belongs to the state. If they're inept and/or corrupt, so be it.
    - rednukleus 14y ago
      > To not take advantage of government loopholes would be neglecting fiduciary duty. Not true. Taking advantage of loopholes is sometimes illegal, and sometimes a grey area. > If they're inept and/or corrupt, so be it. So why don't we all just give up then? Companies have a duty to earn as much money as possible regardless of morality, lobbying to get whatever laws changed they feel like in the process, and politicians can do whatever they want once they are elected. In my view letting corporations determine law, law determine morality, and accepting it without complaining is an exceptionally bad idea.
      - icelancer 14y ago
        > In my view letting corporations determine law, law determine morality, and accepting it without complaining is an exceptionally bad idea. I absolutely agree. But as I said prior in the thread, expecting private corporations to not act in their best interest is like arguing against gravity.
- logn 14y ago
  This attitude is annoying. They're forming overseas shell corporations with at most a few employees in those offices who claim an extremely high percentage of all IP-derived income. To claim these companies aren't doing anything illegal, simply because we can't prove that a few people in Ireland aren't responsible for all IP, isn't quite fair. Just because you've arranged fancy license agreements with your Ireland offices doesn't mean those contracts are valid or conscionable. These companies pay almost no taxes yet feed off our public universities, court systems, patent and trademark offices, copyright offices, public airwaves, highways, federal banking infrastructure, etc. It's sick.
  - tedunangst 14y ago
    And all of the Apple employees driving on those highways pay income tax.
    - logn 14y ago
      Those employees would be paying income tax at any job. The benefit is squarely to Apple owners. I really don't get the attitude of people who defend these companies paying almost no taxes. The same people must support billionaires paying 10% tax while the rest of us pay 25%+.
      - gte910h 14y ago
        There is a scheme in Australia where you don't have a separate cap gains rate, but you get direct credits for actual tax paid by a corporation. That could work out wonderfully in the US: The rich would pay taxes, somehow then.
  - icelancer 14y ago
    > These companies pay almost no taxes yet feed off our public universities, court systems, patent and trademark offices, copyright offices, public airwaves, highways, federal banking infrastructure, etc. It's sick. You misunderstand me. I absolutely agree that it's sick. But it is 100% legal because the government allows it to occur. If you are expecting private organizations to not act in their own interest, you're basically fighting gravity.
dageshi 14y ago
Once a tax system becomes so complicated that you need entire departments of people to work out what the "correct" amount of tax to pay is, you make tax susceptible to optomisation the same as any other part of a business.
27182818284 14y ago
The keyword there is legally. Not morally, ethically, according-to-you-ly, etc. And that's what it comes down to. If you want it another way, well, the laws need to be changed.

vacri 14y ago

Did you even bother reading the article? The very first sentence is about a politician pointing this problem out in Parliament. Hell, that a politician is involved is even in the HN-visible part of the URL.

icelancer 14y ago
Your argument is that they aren't paying their tax bill. That's just factually incorrect. I don't know what to tell you.
- vacri 14y ago
  You replied with the incredibly intellectually lazy "take it up with your politicians", which is exactly what the article describes is happening, but were too lazy to bother reading even the first sentence of. The politicians are questioning the tax issue, and are implying that there is something fishy in the way Apple does their tax - the MP in question thinks that they are not paying their proper tax bill as a result.

bnegreve 14y ago

>The fact that it's not as high as vacri or you may like is not their fault. Lobbying (also lobby) is the act of attempting to influence decisions made by officials in the government [...] [1] It works pretty well when you are as big as Apple. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying

icelancer 14y ago
What is stopping the government from saying: "No, too bad. Pay X amount of taxes instead of the proposed X-Y taxes."
- Scriptor 14y ago
  Because "the government" is composed of the same people being lobbied to by Apple.
  - icelancer 14y ago
    Yes. That's the point. We elect those people. We get what we deserve.
- calbear81 14y ago
  If governments make ex post facto changes to the tax law, you create a volatile business environment that turns off new investments especially from overseas investors. This is why countries that nationalize previously private enterprises without notice end up screwing up foreign investment. Who wants to start a company in X country if at any time they can say "No, too bad. Pay me 90% in taxes now."