7 ms·

Indian Americans: The New Model Minority

47 points by queensnake 18y ago

ajju 18y ago
As an Indian American, I appreciate the attention. I truly do. But comparing an IQ score derived from the average score of immigrant Indian American kids on an arbitrary memory test (it was 112) to the average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews (110, claims the article) to show them in better light is scientifically wrong in so many ways, (not to mention, an indicator of nothing) it made me want to stop reading the article.
- vizard 18y ago
  112 was quoted as IQ score for Indian-Americans.
  - ajju 18y ago
    "When statistical adjustments are used to convert the backward digit span results to full-scale IQ scores, Indian Americans place at about 112" I don't know how you can meaningfully relate a score on a "backward digit" memory test to an exact IQ score. Nevertheless, I am editing my comment to reflect that it's an IQ score derived from the test and not the score on the test.
- randomwalker 18y ago
  I came here to say exactly that. Since you already said it, I will merely add that it is bizarre that the article would veer into the IQ explanation after discussing self-selection, which is sufficient to explain the success of Indian Americans as well as the observed memory test scores.
- mynameishere 18y ago
  The forward digit test is a memory test. The backward digit test is a staple of IQ tests and correlates pretty well with the whole. I think the article used that because it was the best data available.
dangoldin 18y ago
The suggested action ("A new immigration policy that prioritizes skills over family reunification could bring more successful immigrants to the U.S. By emphasizing education, work experience and IQ in our immigration policy, immigrant groups from other national backgrounds could join the list of model minorities.") is similar to Australia's immigration policies which is based on a point system. They even have an immigration point calculator: http://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_calculator.htm http://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_calculator.htm
- aditya 18y ago
  As is Canada's: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/tool/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/tool/index.as...
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
biohacker42 18y ago
Again with the pseudo science IQ crap! Here's a much better metric for immigrant quality what ever that means. The more expensive the trip is, which has very good correlation with distance, the higher IQ the immigrants will have on average. Bonus points if the only way to get here involves a plane. No wonder Indian immigrants are doing so well in America. Considering they are located on opposite end of the earth, and given the average income in in India vs the price of plane tickets, it's fairly obvious you'd have to be pretty extraordinary to even make to the US.
- g__g 18y ago
  I live in India. Although it's not really hard for me to get a plane ticket to America, your reasoning I think correctly sums up everything.
ajju 18y ago
Here's a suggestion from an Indian American on immigration policy: Don't force skilled immigrants (even those with graduate degrees from US universities) to work at the same employer for 5-8 years just to get a permit to stay in the country. I have to stay with the same employer on an H-1B visa while my application for a greencard is pending (currently, people who applied in 2001 with a bachelors degree or 2004 with a masters degree are being considered). Half of my immigrant classmates (Indian or not) from gradschool would have started a startup if they didn't have to stay stuck with the same employers to be in this country.
- unexpected 18y ago
  I'm okay with this as long as you're willing to pay the H1-B and greencard fees if you decide to bail and start a startup. All those costs add up- it's about 10-15k per employee.
  - ajju 18y ago
    Define "bail". I think it's actually illegal to pay for your own H-1B to discourage fake applications or something, but wrt the Greencard, there is usually a negotiated agreement between the employer and the employee about who pays the cost (or what fraction of it). So there is no bailing out. I fully intend to honor mine and wouldn't actually mind paying the H-1B costs either, were it legal.
    - unexpected 18y ago
      bail = you leave. With a greencard you're forced to stay, but with an H-1B, you can get your visa transferred to the new company you're working for (if you have another job). In such instances, it's only fair that you re-imburse your employer for the fees that they incurred while processing your H-1B.
      - ajju 18y ago
        Why is it "only fair" that I reimburse them if I am employed on an at-will contract? The legal expenses are no different from any other one time expense such as a sign-on bonus. As such, just like sign on bonuses, if an employer believes they would be compensated for their legal expenses only if I stay there for X years, they should put it on a contract. If I think it's fair as well, I'll sign it.
chiffonade 18y ago
This whole "model minority" concept is so incredibly degrading and haughty. It's a bunch of white people thinking they are doing a group of people a favor by applying a label to them. Oh you should be so proud - you're not like how most other dark skinned people are! So smart and able to succeed!
- katz 18y ago
  Why? I think the "model minority" label fits. If a minority is fairly successful (low crime, high achievement, etc...) it makes sense to increase immigration from those countries. Also, once a minority is a "model minority" things such as affirmative action can be changed to only apply to struggling minorities. > Oh you should be so proud - you're not like how most other dark skinned people are! Aren't most "model minorities" in the USA far more successful than white people?
  - mechanical_fish 18y ago
    If a minority is fairly successful (low crime, high achievement, etc...) it makes sense to increase immigration from those countries. The reason the "model minority" label is bad is that it's designed to help the human mind draw racist conclusions. Like the one that you appear to have just drawn. The logic seems to go something like this: A. The average Indian-American in the United States is more successful than the average member of Group X. B. Therefore, smartness and success must have something to do with being from India. C. Therefore, if a person is from India, we should give them a preferred immigration status over someone from another country. But C is explicitly racist. It discriminates against (e.g.) a smart and potentially successful African, or Mexican-American, or American Indian by holding him or her responsible for the "average" success and test scores of an entire U.S. ethnic group. (As if the woman standing before you were somehow responsible for the test scores of every other U.S. resident who looks like her!) And it ignores a very, very obvious alternative theory: That Indian-Americans living in the United States are successful "on average" because the "average" person of Indian descent lives in India and can't afford to move to the United States. Another problem with the "model minority" label is: Who designs this "model"? The editors of Forbes? I note that, this week, winning a spelling bee in English is a "model" behavior, whereas hairstyling, short-order cooking, psychological counseling in non-English languages, installing ceramic tile, picking strawberries for minimum wage, or volunteering to serve in the military are absent from the list of American civic virtues.
sanj 18y ago
A new immigration policy that prioritizes skills over family reunification could bring more successful immigrants to the U.S. And they would earn as much money as they could, and then they would leave. Because people like being with their families, especially parents, especially when they kids.
bluishgreen 18y ago
"A new immigration policy that prioritizes skills over family reunification could bring more successful immigrants to the U.S." So if I can code and spell, and my wife cannot I get stuck without a family? How many of your wives can spell Guerdon or whatever.
tokenadult 18y ago
Oh, yeesh, not yet more junk science on IQ. First of all, digit span is exquisitely subject to training effects http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ762777&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ762777 http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordD... (this is just one citation among many for this often-replicated result) and digit span is not related to important cognitive functions that sum up to "rationality" as distinct from IQ. http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300123852 http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=97803001238... http://www.amazon.com/What-Intelligence-Tests-Miss-Psychology/dp/030012385X http://www.amazon.com/What-Intelligence-Tests-Miss-Psycholog... But in general about articles in the popular press posted to Hacker News about IQ, what I say is that the obligatory link for any discussion of a report on a research result like that is the article by Peter Norvig, director of research at Google, on how to interpret scientific research. http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html Check each news story you read for how many of the important issues in interpreting research are NOT discussed in the story.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
tokenadult 18y ago
The most successful hack of the founders of the United States was to found a constitutional and economic system that could bring in people from different countries all over the world, and have them all work hard to build up a new nation. There must be some reason that the smartest people (however we define smart behavior) in many other countries see more opportunity in the United States than they see in the countries where they grew up. Read the Federalist Papers to become a better political hacker.
gclaramunt 18y ago
At the end it could be read as just another lobby attempt. Using the same statistics, we can say that the majority of H1B visa fraud is committed by Indians, and 100% of the arrested for that kind of fraud are Indians too... that proves anything?
known 18y ago
Isn't it desirable to include Indians in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

47 points by queensnake 18y ago

ajju 18y ago

As an Indian American, I appreciate the attention. I truly do. But comparing an IQ score derived from the average score of immigrant Indian American kids on an arbitrary memory test (it was 112) to the average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews (110, claims the article) to show them in better light is scientifically wrong in so many ways, (not to mention, an indicator of nothing) it made me want to stop reading the article.

vizard 18y ago
112 was quoted as IQ score for Indian-Americans.
- ajju 18y ago
  "When statistical adjustments are used to convert the backward digit span results to full-scale IQ scores, Indian Americans place at about 112" I don't know how you can meaningfully relate a score on a "backward digit" memory test to an exact IQ score. Nevertheless, I am editing my comment to reflect that it's an IQ score derived from the test and not the score on the test.
randomwalker 18y ago
I came here to say exactly that. Since you already said it, I will merely add that it is bizarre that the article would veer into the IQ explanation after discussing self-selection, which is sufficient to explain the success of Indian Americans as well as the observed memory test scores.
mynameishere 18y ago
The forward digit test is a memory test. The backward digit test is a staple of IQ tests and correlates pretty well with the whole. I think the article used that because it was the best data available.

dangoldin 18y ago

The suggested action ("A new immigration policy that prioritizes skills over family reunification could bring more successful immigrants to the U.S. By emphasizing education, work experience and IQ in our immigration policy, immigrant groups from other national backgrounds could join the list of model minorities.") is similar to Australia's immigration policies which is based on a point system. They even have an immigration point calculator: http://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_calculator.htm http://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_calculator.htm

aditya 18y ago
As is Canada's: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/tool/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/tool/index.as...

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

biohacker42 18y ago

Again with the pseudo science IQ crap! Here's a much better metric for immigrant quality what ever that means. The more expensive the trip is, which has very good correlation with distance, the higher IQ the immigrants will have on average. Bonus points if the only way to get here involves a plane. No wonder Indian immigrants are doing so well in America. Considering they are located on opposite end of the earth, and given the average income in in India vs the price of plane tickets, it's fairly obvious you'd have to be pretty extraordinary to even make to the US.

g__g 18y ago
I live in India. Although it's not really hard for me to get a plane ticket to America, your reasoning I think correctly sums up everything.

ajju 18y ago

Here's a suggestion from an Indian American on immigration policy: Don't force skilled immigrants (even those with graduate degrees from US universities) to work at the same employer for 5-8 years just to get a permit to stay in the country. I have to stay with the same employer on an H-1B visa while my application for a greencard is pending (currently, people who applied in 2001 with a bachelors degree or 2004 with a masters degree are being considered). Half of my immigrant classmates (Indian or not) from gradschool would have started a startup if they didn't have to stay stuck with the same employers to be in this country.

unexpected 18y ago
I'm okay with this as long as you're willing to pay the H1-B and greencard fees if you decide to bail and start a startup. All those costs add up- it's about 10-15k per employee.
- ajju 18y ago
  Define "bail". I think it's actually illegal to pay for your own H-1B to discourage fake applications or something, but wrt the Greencard, there is usually a negotiated agreement between the employer and the employee about who pays the cost (or what fraction of it). So there is no bailing out. I fully intend to honor mine and wouldn't actually mind paying the H-1B costs either, were it legal.
  - unexpected 18y ago
    bail = you leave. With a greencard you're forced to stay, but with an H-1B, you can get your visa transferred to the new company you're working for (if you have another job). In such instances, it's only fair that you re-imburse your employer for the fees that they incurred while processing your H-1B.
    - ajju 18y ago
      Why is it "only fair" that I reimburse them if I am employed on an at-will contract? The legal expenses are no different from any other one time expense such as a sign-on bonus. As such, just like sign on bonuses, if an employer believes they would be compensated for their legal expenses only if I stay there for X years, they should put it on a contract. If I think it's fair as well, I'll sign it.

chiffonade 18y ago

This whole "model minority" concept is so incredibly degrading and haughty. It's a bunch of white people thinking they are doing a group of people a favor by applying a label to them. Oh you should be so proud - you're not like how most other dark skinned people are! So smart and able to succeed!

katz 18y ago
Why? I think the "model minority" label fits. If a minority is fairly successful (low crime, high achievement, etc...) it makes sense to increase immigration from those countries. Also, once a minority is a "model minority" things such as affirmative action can be changed to only apply to struggling minorities. > Oh you should be so proud - you're not like how most other dark skinned people are! Aren't most "model minorities" in the USA far more successful than white people?
- mechanical_fish 18y ago
  If a minority is fairly successful (low crime, high achievement, etc...) it makes sense to increase immigration from those countries. The reason the "model minority" label is bad is that it's designed to help the human mind draw racist conclusions. Like the one that you appear to have just drawn. The logic seems to go something like this: A. The average Indian-American in the United States is more successful than the average member of Group X. B. Therefore, smartness and success must have something to do with being from India. C. Therefore, if a person is from India, we should give them a preferred immigration status over someone from another country. But C is explicitly racist. It discriminates against (e.g.) a smart and potentially successful African, or Mexican-American, or American Indian by holding him or her responsible for the "average" success and test scores of an entire U.S. ethnic group. (As if the woman standing before you were somehow responsible for the test scores of every other U.S. resident who looks like her!) And it ignores a very, very obvious alternative theory: That Indian-Americans living in the United States are successful "on average" because the "average" person of Indian descent lives in India and can't afford to move to the United States. Another problem with the "model minority" label is: Who designs this "model"? The editors of Forbes? I note that, this week, winning a spelling bee in English is a "model" behavior, whereas hairstyling, short-order cooking, psychological counseling in non-English languages, installing ceramic tile, picking strawberries for minimum wage, or volunteering to serve in the military are absent from the list of American civic virtues.

sanj 18y ago

A new immigration policy that prioritizes skills over family reunification could bring more successful immigrants to the U.S. And they would earn as much money as they could, and then they would leave. Because people like being with their families, especially parents, especially when they kids.

bluishgreen 18y ago

"A new immigration policy that prioritizes skills over family reunification could bring more successful immigrants to the U.S." So if I can code and spell, and my wife cannot I get stuck without a family? How many of your wives can spell Guerdon or whatever.

tokenadult 18y ago

Oh, yeesh, not yet more junk science on IQ. First of all, digit span is exquisitely subject to training effects http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ762777&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ762777 http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordD... (this is just one citation among many for this often-replicated result) and digit span is not related to important cognitive functions that sum up to "rationality" as distinct from IQ. http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300123852 http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=97803001238... http://www.amazon.com/What-Intelligence-Tests-Miss-Psychology/dp/030012385X http://www.amazon.com/What-Intelligence-Tests-Miss-Psycholog... But in general about articles in the popular press posted to Hacker News about IQ, what I say is that the obligatory link for any discussion of a report on a research result like that is the article by Peter Norvig, director of research at Google, on how to interpret scientific research. http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html Check each news story you read for how many of the important issues in interpreting research are NOT discussed in the story.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]

tokenadult 18y ago

The most successful hack of the founders of the United States was to found a constitutional and economic system that could bring in people from different countries all over the world, and have them all work hard to build up a new nation. There must be some reason that the smartest people (however we define smart behavior) in many other countries see more opportunity in the United States than they see in the countries where they grew up. Read the Federalist Papers to become a better political hacker.

gclaramunt 18y ago

At the end it could be read as just another lobby attempt. Using the same statistics, we can say that the majority of H1B visa fraud is committed by Indians, and 100% of the arrested for that kind of fraud are Indians too... that proves anything?

known 18y ago

Isn't it desirable to include Indians in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India