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You don't. You can't. As PG wrote in "Great Hackers": I've seen occasional articles about how to manage programmers. Really there should be two articles: one a

You don't. You can't. As PG wrote in "Great Hackers": I've seen occasional articles about how to manage programmers. Really there should be two articles: one about what to do if you are yourself a programmer, and one about what to do if you're not. And the second could probably be condensed into two words: give up.

kingkongrevenge 18y ago
> You don't. You can't. I call bullshit. There are many, many examples of successful technical teams organized by people without deep relevant technical expertise. All this PHB stereotyping around here is just arrogant vanity.
- Brushfire 18y ago
  Agreed. The fact remains that it is possible to be a business person AND a hacker. And you dont have to be that great at either to hire experts on either side. For example, you could be primarily business with a little hacking, and that would make you qualified enough to hire good hackers. On the other side, I'd love to see an article about hackers hiring salespeople. I somehow doubt most hackers would see themselves as absolute idiots at finding a good salesperson, they would just be new to it the first couple times. Its not how you categorize yourself, its how you approach the problem, and your ability to research/network/analyze. This should be true REGARDLESS of what you are hiring for.
- ksvs 18y ago
  There are many, many examples Which ones were you thinking of when you wrote this?
- anamax 18y ago
  > I call bullshit. WTF. Is this some sort of playground? > There are many, many examples of successful technical teams organized by people without deep relevant technical expertise. And there are many many more that are complete disasters. As they say, a blind pig occasionally finds an acorn. > All this PHB stereotyping around here is just arrogant vanity. Actually, it's experience. The interesting difference is that technical folk don't claim any particular skill in the domain of PHBs but the PHBs claim incredible skill in technical domains. If both are correct, there's something interesting going on, but let's see some evidence.
  - teej 18y ago
    >> I call bullshit. > WTF. Is this some sort of playground? Calling people out is an important part of a healthy, critical discussion focused on the exchange of ideas. I might not share someone's opionion, but I aplaud fighting against groupthink. >> All this PHB stereotyping around here is just arrogant vanity. > Actually, it's experience. Both sides of this discussion have pointed to ethereal "examples", "experience" without giving any meat. Show the evidence - empirical or anecdotal - to support your opinion. > Let's see some evidence. Let's see some evidence from your side too.
    - anamax 18y ago
      >>> I call bullshit. >> WTF. Is this some sort of playground? >Calling people out , Now you're escalating to a physical challenge. Like I said, playground. > is an important part of a healthy, critical discussion Actually, it isn't. In fact, calling someone out is one of the best indicators that "healty, critical discussion" isn't anywhere near. >>> All this PHB stereotyping around here is just arrogant vanity. >> Actually, it's experience. >Show the evidence - empirical or anecdotal - to support your opinion. If you haven't read the other posts, citing them won't make any difference. If you have and still think that there's no evidence, citing them won't make any difference. >> Let's see some evidence. >Let's see some evidence from your side too. For what? I wrote that technical people don't believe that they're good at evaluating biz people. Which part of that is under dispute? You seem to believe that biz people are good at evaluating technical people. The sole piece of evidence is that there are successful teams "led" by biz people, but that doesn't imply that said biz people evaluated the technical people.
      - replicatorblog 18y ago
        This idea that there is no history of business types starting technical businesses seems so silly. It is well beyond the "blind squirrel finding a nut". A great manager can assemble a great team and the world of successful companies show that. EA - Trip Hawkins was a business guy, but somehow they dominate software. eHarmony - A good sized web based business with a doc at the helm. McDonalds - Everytime you order a big mac anywhere in the world a bun, patty, slice of cheese, two pickles and a squirt of ketchup come out of inventory. All of the airlines - May not lead to great business results, but they certainly know software. And of course these from my earlier comment: Walmart FedEx Disney Bank of America For all the people who think it is impossible for non-hackers to hire a hacker, why don't you comb through the Fortune 500 and prove your point, or write a program to do so.
vinutheraj 18y ago
These criteria can maybe distinguish the good coders from the bad but not necessarily the great from the good though !

kingkongrevenge 18y ago

> You don't. You can't. I call bullshit. There are many, many examples of successful technical teams organized by people without deep relevant technical expertise. All this PHB stereotyping around here is just arrogant vanity.

Brushfire 18y ago
Agreed. The fact remains that it is possible to be a business person AND a hacker. And you dont have to be that great at either to hire experts on either side. For example, you could be primarily business with a little hacking, and that would make you qualified enough to hire good hackers. On the other side, I'd love to see an article about hackers hiring salespeople. I somehow doubt most hackers would see themselves as absolute idiots at finding a good salesperson, they would just be new to it the first couple times. Its not how you categorize yourself, its how you approach the problem, and your ability to research/network/analyze. This should be true REGARDLESS of what you are hiring for.
ksvs 18y ago
There are many, many examples Which ones were you thinking of when you wrote this?
anamax 18y ago
> I call bullshit. WTF. Is this some sort of playground? > There are many, many examples of successful technical teams organized by people without deep relevant technical expertise. And there are many many more that are complete disasters. As they say, a blind pig occasionally finds an acorn. > All this PHB stereotyping around here is just arrogant vanity. Actually, it's experience. The interesting difference is that technical folk don't claim any particular skill in the domain of PHBs but the PHBs claim incredible skill in technical domains. If both are correct, there's something interesting going on, but let's see some evidence.
- teej 18y ago
  >> I call bullshit. > WTF. Is this some sort of playground? Calling people out is an important part of a healthy, critical discussion focused on the exchange of ideas. I might not share someone's opionion, but I aplaud fighting against groupthink. >> All this PHB stereotyping around here is just arrogant vanity. > Actually, it's experience. Both sides of this discussion have pointed to ethereal "examples", "experience" without giving any meat. Show the evidence - empirical or anecdotal - to support your opinion. > Let's see some evidence. Let's see some evidence from your side too.
  - anamax 18y ago
    >>> I call bullshit. >> WTF. Is this some sort of playground? >Calling people out , Now you're escalating to a physical challenge. Like I said, playground. > is an important part of a healthy, critical discussion Actually, it isn't. In fact, calling someone out is one of the best indicators that "healty, critical discussion" isn't anywhere near. >>> All this PHB stereotyping around here is just arrogant vanity. >> Actually, it's experience. >Show the evidence - empirical or anecdotal - to support your opinion. If you haven't read the other posts, citing them won't make any difference. If you have and still think that there's no evidence, citing them won't make any difference. >> Let's see some evidence. >Let's see some evidence from your side too. For what? I wrote that technical people don't believe that they're good at evaluating biz people. Which part of that is under dispute? You seem to believe that biz people are good at evaluating technical people. The sole piece of evidence is that there are successful teams "led" by biz people, but that doesn't imply that said biz people evaluated the technical people.
    - replicatorblog 18y ago
      This idea that there is no history of business types starting technical businesses seems so silly. It is well beyond the "blind squirrel finding a nut". A great manager can assemble a great team and the world of successful companies show that. EA - Trip Hawkins was a business guy, but somehow they dominate software. eHarmony - A good sized web based business with a doc at the helm. McDonalds - Everytime you order a big mac anywhere in the world a bun, patty, slice of cheese, two pickles and a squirt of ketchup come out of inventory. All of the airlines - May not lead to great business results, but they certainly know software. And of course these from my earlier comment: Walmart FedEx Disney Bank of America For all the people who think it is impossible for non-hackers to hire a hacker, why don't you comb through the Fortune 500 and prove your point, or write a program to do so.

vinutheraj 18y ago

These criteria can maybe distinguish the good coders from the bad but not necessarily the great from the good though !