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I said this on Twitter and I think it's worth mentioning here. This stuff is sad. And it makes me think that true startup founders aren't doing it right. If yo

I said this on Twitter and I think it's worth mentioning here. This stuff is sad. And it makes me think that true startup founders aren't doing it right. If your startup is so central to your life experiences that without it, life isn't worth living, then you have a problem, and you should seek professional help. Making this worse is the culture of startup founders gloating about how hard they work and how much of a mental toll it takes on them (and those around them). Work smarter, not harder.

richardjordan 14y ago
The system in Silicon Valley pretty much forces startup founders to make this all or nothing approach - at least for the first several years of a startup's life - it is virtually impossible to compete without doing so (and yes there are rare exceptions). The same VCs that laud founders also push them to these extremes while claiming to support balance. I know few founders who haven't experienced that.
- nicksergeant 14y ago
  That's incredibly sad. There's more to life, but this brainwashing of startup founders seems to be stripping more lives than it enriches.
  - richardjordan 14y ago
    It's not so much brainwashing founders - well I suppose it is with the young 'uns that come in and are told this is an easy way to riches just follow steps 1, 2, 3. It's just the reality of choosing this career path, which some of us old enough to know better, still choose - for whatever our reasons. This is why one should be skeptical when dealing with the investor side of ht equation. They will talk a good game, about their love for entrepreneurs, but what they love is those who make them money. They don't really care about those left burnt out. Similarly the media which fetishizes startup success/failure and creates the false narrative, from the safety of a paycheck and never having put it all on the line. [Insert obligatory MAN IN TH ARENA quotes here..]
    - nicksergeant 14y ago
      Yep. I'm not saying the lure of startup success is easy to defend yourself against, but we should be more vocal about when it's time to stop or get help when things aren't going right.
      - richardjordan 14y ago
        I don't think you're wrong there. I think a more honest dialogue about how things really are, when things are going bad, and better support structures would benefit us all. Sadly I think you'd find admissions of struggle are perceived as weakness by the VC community (who'd deny this), or that's certainly what most entrepreneurs believe, so they feel that reaching out for help would be a net lose. I think of the analogy with head injuries in the NFL. They're the cost of doing business if you want to exceed, and look at what happened to Alex Smith when he took a break to recover from a concussion. Benched. Replaced. Now out on his ear. So I agree with you, I want to get there. Just don't know how to get there from here. Make sense?
        nicksergeant 14y ago
        Yeah, absolutely. I like the analogy, too. But, unlike in the NFL, I think there are multiple roads to a successful business. One doesn't need to be a rocket that either lands on the boom or explodes in space :)
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- nhangen 14y ago
  The VC's are just one manifestation of the stress problem. I'm bootstrapped and have followed the same work patterns as many startups, trying to get the company off the ground. Building a successful company often requires extremes. I'm also not one that values balance. I'm more concerned about failing and being left without a paddle than working 24/7 and missing a personal life.
- rdouble 14y ago
  I've worked for 3 startups funded by firms like Sequoia, Matrix, General Atlantic and Greylock and the VCs were very hands off. In my experience, tech founders tend to push themselves to the extremes, rather than have it forced upon them.
  - richardjordan 14y ago
    Right. I'm upvoting you because I agree with you, however there's a BUT coming... Buuuuut I think this is one of those situations where cause/effect is a little muddied. As a founder you push yourself to an extreme. However when there's a world where the investors can place their money where they like ...and they fetishize and laud the founders who work to extremes ...where the stories of success involve near bankruptcies, second mortgages, maxed out credit cards, relationship difficulties and these things are seen as a mark of effort ...and where they pattern match to rather crazy degrees to cut through the stupid numbers of pitches they have to mine through to find a winner... then what seems to happen is that founders internalize that if you aren't making those huge sacricfices you just cannot compete. It'd be like the Tour De France, or steroids-era baseball. So long as the rewards are going to those who cheat and risk their lives with dangerous drugs, there's a perverse incentive for even elite athletes to cheat and take the same risks. Is it a choice? Sure. But it's sort of the only choice.
    - rdouble 14y ago
      The founders I worked with were already successful and moderately rich from working at or starting previous startups, so I didn't experience anything like what you are describing.
- hindsightbias 14y ago
  If Y-Comb and VC's really care about "the people" that make up a team, perhaps they should consider investing in training founders how to deal with the stresses of the career. Doesn't make much sense to sink a lot of money into a team and then have a bunch of 20-somethings who struggle with the reality of startup life.
  - nicksergeant 14y ago
    Absolutely. Cannot up-vote this enough.
  - amirmc 14y ago
    "Doesn't make much sense to sink a lot of money into a team and then have a bunch of 20-somethings who struggle with the reality of startup life." And the cynic in me says the trick is not to sink a lot of money in eg YC only funds a team for a few months. VC's etc can wait to see who survives in the 'sink or swim' game and the follow-on accordingly.
danboarder 14y ago
Agreed, though Jason (and many others) reiterate that being a founder is inherently "imbalanced", at least during the early days of running a startup. The idea of living a balanced life is not a priority in entrepreneur culture (perhaps just the opposite, with all-night hackathons etc). It would be great to see a new focus on "life-balance" that goes beyond 'work productivity' blog posts to look at emotional/mental health issues. Personally I find planning time to go out with friends and exercise helps a lot (I began running last year, also hiked the tallest peak in the area 4 times).
- nicksergeant 14y ago
  I completely agree. I'd rather work for a startup where the founders have a solid life balance than if they're Red Bull-fueled business owners running non-stop. There has to be measurable differences in the ability to make decisions when you have a well-balanced life than if you're laser-focused on your company for years. Even if that means I'd be working for a startup that grows slower, it's more controlled, intelligent growth. Growing smarter, not faster, if you will. Obviously people are going to disagree with this, and that's their thing, but the culture of giving up everything for the off-chance of succeeding at a startup and then having no clue what to do after you've failed... has to stop. Or it'll just stop naturally when all the startup founders have given up on life (which is what we should try to avoid).
mattmaroon 14y ago
I think that's true of anything, not just startups. Nothing out of your control should be so central to your life.

richardjordan 14y ago

The system in Silicon Valley pretty much forces startup founders to make this all or nothing approach - at least for the first several years of a startup's life - it is virtually impossible to compete without doing so (and yes there are rare exceptions). The same VCs that laud founders also push them to these extremes while claiming to support balance. I know few founders who haven't experienced that.

nicksergeant 14y ago
That's incredibly sad. There's more to life, but this brainwashing of startup founders seems to be stripping more lives than it enriches.
- richardjordan 14y ago
  It's not so much brainwashing founders - well I suppose it is with the young 'uns that come in and are told this is an easy way to riches just follow steps 1, 2, 3. It's just the reality of choosing this career path, which some of us old enough to know better, still choose - for whatever our reasons. This is why one should be skeptical when dealing with the investor side of ht equation. They will talk a good game, about their love for entrepreneurs, but what they love is those who make them money. They don't really care about those left burnt out. Similarly the media which fetishizes startup success/failure and creates the false narrative, from the safety of a paycheck and never having put it all on the line. [Insert obligatory MAN IN TH ARENA quotes here..]
  - nicksergeant 14y ago
    Yep. I'm not saying the lure of startup success is easy to defend yourself against, but we should be more vocal about when it's time to stop or get help when things aren't going right.
    - richardjordan 14y ago
      I don't think you're wrong there. I think a more honest dialogue about how things really are, when things are going bad, and better support structures would benefit us all. Sadly I think you'd find admissions of struggle are perceived as weakness by the VC community (who'd deny this), or that's certainly what most entrepreneurs believe, so they feel that reaching out for help would be a net lose. I think of the analogy with head injuries in the NFL. They're the cost of doing business if you want to exceed, and look at what happened to Alex Smith when he took a break to recover from a concussion. Benched. Replaced. Now out on his ear. So I agree with you, I want to get there. Just don't know how to get there from here. Make sense?
      - nicksergeant 14y ago
        Yeah, absolutely. I like the analogy, too. But, unlike in the NFL, I think there are multiple roads to a successful business. One doesn't need to be a rocket that either lands on the boom or explodes in space :)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
nhangen 14y ago
The VC's are just one manifestation of the stress problem. I'm bootstrapped and have followed the same work patterns as many startups, trying to get the company off the ground. Building a successful company often requires extremes. I'm also not one that values balance. I'm more concerned about failing and being left without a paddle than working 24/7 and missing a personal life.
rdouble 14y ago
I've worked for 3 startups funded by firms like Sequoia, Matrix, General Atlantic and Greylock and the VCs were very hands off. In my experience, tech founders tend to push themselves to the extremes, rather than have it forced upon them.
- richardjordan 14y ago
  Right. I'm upvoting you because I agree with you, however there's a BUT coming... Buuuuut I think this is one of those situations where cause/effect is a little muddied. As a founder you push yourself to an extreme. However when there's a world where the investors can place their money where they like ...and they fetishize and laud the founders who work to extremes ...where the stories of success involve near bankruptcies, second mortgages, maxed out credit cards, relationship difficulties and these things are seen as a mark of effort ...and where they pattern match to rather crazy degrees to cut through the stupid numbers of pitches they have to mine through to find a winner... then what seems to happen is that founders internalize that if you aren't making those huge sacricfices you just cannot compete. It'd be like the Tour De France, or steroids-era baseball. So long as the rewards are going to those who cheat and risk their lives with dangerous drugs, there's a perverse incentive for even elite athletes to cheat and take the same risks. Is it a choice? Sure. But it's sort of the only choice.
  - rdouble 14y ago
    The founders I worked with were already successful and moderately rich from working at or starting previous startups, so I didn't experience anything like what you are describing.
hindsightbias 14y ago
If Y-Comb and VC's really care about "the people" that make up a team, perhaps they should consider investing in training founders how to deal with the stresses of the career. Doesn't make much sense to sink a lot of money into a team and then have a bunch of 20-somethings who struggle with the reality of startup life.
- nicksergeant 14y ago
  Absolutely. Cannot up-vote this enough.
- amirmc 14y ago
  "Doesn't make much sense to sink a lot of money into a team and then have a bunch of 20-somethings who struggle with the reality of startup life." And the cynic in me says the trick is not to sink a lot of money in eg YC only funds a team for a few months. VC's etc can wait to see who survives in the 'sink or swim' game and the follow-on accordingly.

danboarder 14y ago

Agreed, though Jason (and many others) reiterate that being a founder is inherently "imbalanced", at least during the early days of running a startup. The idea of living a balanced life is not a priority in entrepreneur culture (perhaps just the opposite, with all-night hackathons etc). It would be great to see a new focus on "life-balance" that goes beyond 'work productivity' blog posts to look at emotional/mental health issues. Personally I find planning time to go out with friends and exercise helps a lot (I began running last year, also hiked the tallest peak in the area 4 times).

nicksergeant 14y ago
I completely agree. I'd rather work for a startup where the founders have a solid life balance than if they're Red Bull-fueled business owners running non-stop. There has to be measurable differences in the ability to make decisions when you have a well-balanced life than if you're laser-focused on your company for years. Even if that means I'd be working for a startup that grows slower, it's more controlled, intelligent growth. Growing smarter, not faster, if you will. Obviously people are going to disagree with this, and that's their thing, but the culture of giving up everything for the off-chance of succeeding at a startup and then having no clue what to do after you've failed... has to stop. Or it'll just stop naturally when all the startup founders have given up on life (which is what we should try to avoid).

mattmaroon 14y ago

I think that's true of anything, not just startups. Nothing out of your control should be so central to your life.