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Should we talk about the fact that founder Jody Sherman didn't just die?

186 points by danboarder 14y ago

hect0r 14y ago
This seems to me to simply be a gratuitous speculation on Jody's death with no other purpose than to try and generate traffic by appearing to be some sort of brave, dissenting voice. It is completely unnecessary and in bad taste to pontificate on his cause of death and, even if it was suicide, I really struggle to see the benefit of discussing what is ultimately a private matter for his family. The argument that discussing the circumstances of Jody's death is necessary because there is a systemic issue of founders killing themselves is outrageous and an insult to the reader's intelligence. Is there any evidence at all that founders are more likely to kill themselves than, say, the unemployed or indeed any other vocational group? Sure, being a founder is stressful but then so are many other vocations in life...
- shardling 14y ago
  The author seems completely certain of the cause of death -- it certainly isn't presented as speculation.
  - hect0r 14y ago
    By his own admission, he had only had "dozens" of emails with Jody over a few years and wasn't a close friend. Given Jody's family and close friends haven't spoken on this topic, I still consider the internet pontification of someone with only a sparse email-based connection to Jody to be speculation since he presents absolutely no evidence to support his allegations nor is there any corroboration from those with a confirmed connection to Jody.
    - clicks 14y ago
      It was confirmed earlier this week by a news station local to his area, Jody used a gun. http://www.lvrj.com/business/jody-sherman-ecomom-founder-and-tech-entrepreneur-dies-at-47-188929801.html http://www.lvrj.com/business/jody-sherman-ecomom-founder-and... -- "The Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner confirmed that Sherman, Ecomom's chairman and CEO, died early Monday morning. It was ruled a suicide."
      - hect0r 14y ago
        Even if that is true, it doesn't change the fact that when the person's own family and friends are not discussing this matter, it doesn't behoove a stranger (more or less) blogging about it. It just strikes me as being in bad taste.
        danso 14y ago
        I think you have really, really missed the point of the OP. First of all, what family and friends want is not the sole factor in what should be publicly discussed. If I die because I am drunk behind the wheel tomorrow, I bet none of my loved ones would want to focus on that aspect of my passing, and yet I think a case could be made that it is a legitimate topic of public concern. Of course what Jody did was a private decision...and yet that is the problem the OP is alluding to. From all reports, Jody was a wonderful engaging person with a lot to live for. And yet he killed himself? If there is something about the tech world that causes such wonderful people to be untreated and lost, then is is a topic that should be considered publicly, and not hushed on the grounds of "bad taste"
        lisper 14y ago
        I don't want to speak ill of the dead, but I knew Jody, and while he had many terrific qualities, he was not a saint. He had issues. And his biggest problem (at least when I knew him) was his unwillingness to admit he had a problem. It's all but impossible to help someone who won't help themselves.
    - richardjordan 14y ago
      When a prominent member of the startup community commits suicide I think it is clearly in the public interest for the leading media voices in the startup community to discuss how this is impacted by the culture o that startup community. I am afraid I'm not understanding the beef here.
- patgarner 14y ago
  Why do you take this article so personally? I feel like your comment is way overblown. My personal impression is that this person felt affected by what happened and that this blog post is one way of expressing that. I think it's natural when someone dies this way for someone who feels that loss to question why it happened. I certainly felt that way about Aaron Swartz and I didn't know him at all. That's all I see here and I have a hard time understanding why you are so offended.
- hypnocode 14y ago
  I think you're missing the point, that perhaps we need to examine the culture we're creating. The benefit of discussing the matter is that we may be able to prevent future tragedies from occurring if we find thing we can do differently to relieve the pressure of being a founder.
- rm999 14y ago
  I think the attitude of your comment is what he is dissenting against. Why should we ignore the fact that prominent people in our community have committed suicide? Why should people who bring it up have to deal with anger? My take on this blog entry is that the writer wants constructive dialogue. I'm personally fine with that. Suicide is a touchy subject and I understand some people aren't comfortable discussing it. But I think your accusations against the author are unreasonable.
DuskStar 14y ago
The post title to me has the possibility of him still being alive... I find the full title much more clear. "Should We Talk about the Fact That Jody Sherman Didn't Just Die, But That He Killed Himself?"
- danboarder 14y ago
  The title was truncated to fit in the allotted HN title field (80 characters). I agree it could be re-written for further clarity though.
  - DuskStar 14y ago
    Ah, that makes sense. I was half expecting an article on how they haven't recovered his body and there were plane tickets to Guatemala purchased in his name...
  - iNate2000 14y ago
    How about changing it to "didn't only die" or "didn't merely die"? I first thought it was about someone who hadn't died. Then I started reading the article and thought it was about someone with the same name. THEN I realized what I was reading.
    - danboarder 14y ago
      @iNate2000 good suggestions, I had considered a similar edit but then found the edit link was no longer available due to HN's time limit for making edits.
arram 14y ago
"I keep saying how brutally hard this is. Each time you crest the rise in front of you, it just makes it clear the size of the even larger hill that looms beyond it. It goes on for a long time. I pissed blood for years keeping Netflix alive while we figured that shit out – as did every other successful entrepreneur in the valley." - Marc Randolph, Founder/CEO, Netflix.
- mattmaroon 14y ago
  And that's when things are going well.
- 23david 14y ago
  It breaks you mentally bit by bit, and I personally experiencing this a few years ago on a startup. It was horrible and unexpected to find myself mentally unable to get my work done. Essentially it seems that the stress hormones released by constant physical & mental stress physically damages/alters the emotional centers of your brain. And over time the damage becomes more-or-less permanent. There is some research to support this, but it's a very new field (Some good research is coming out of the PTSD research being funded by the military.) I don't think it's far off to say that at least mentally, starting a company is a lot like going off to war. Less risk of physical injury perhaps, but similar risks for mental injury. For healthy people, but particularly people genetically susceptible to stress-related disorders, startup work can trigger full-blown depression and bi-polar manic/depressive cycles. That's just part of the job, and you need to be prepared for it and take care of yourself. IMO, successful founders are the ones that successfully cope with the inevitable manic/depressive cycles. Self-awareness of our limitations, and good medication are life-savers. Once you start testing out different medication options, prepare to spend up to a year finding a combination that works to help keep you stable through the most stressful and depressed times. Don't give up hope. Ever.
  - foenix 14y ago
    In after the 1991 Gulf War, PTSD rates spiked beyond rates ever seen in the US Army. A study commissioned to examine the effects of PTSD found that this long-term stress was actually causing the hippocampus (the short-to-med/long term memory module of the brain, amongst other things) to atrophy. This confirmed a similar effect they had found with mice a few years earlier. The next push is to replicate the more positive result of environment enrichment, which has been shown in mice but not people. Basically, environment enrichment has been shown to help facilitate LTP (long-term potentiation — an extreme period of neurogenosis) and makes the hippocampus less prone to stress-induced atrophy. I've personally been a few very high stress work environments, but I use this knowledge to help convince myself to relax productively.
nicksergeant 14y ago
I said this on Twitter and I think it's worth mentioning here. This stuff is sad. And it makes me think that true startup founders aren't doing it right. If your startup is so central to your life experiences that without it, life isn't worth living, then you have a problem, and you should seek professional help. Making this worse is the culture of startup founders gloating about how hard they work and how much of a mental toll it takes on them (and those around them). Work smarter, not harder.
- richardjordan 14y ago
  The system in Silicon Valley pretty much forces startup founders to make this all or nothing approach - at least for the first several years of a startup's life - it is virtually impossible to compete without doing so (and yes there are rare exceptions). The same VCs that laud founders also push them to these extremes while claiming to support balance. I know few founders who haven't experienced that.
  - nicksergeant 14y ago
    That's incredibly sad. There's more to life, but this brainwashing of startup founders seems to be stripping more lives than it enriches.
    - richardjordan 14y ago
      It's not so much brainwashing founders - well I suppose it is with the young 'uns that come in and are told this is an easy way to riches just follow steps 1, 2, 3. It's just the reality of choosing this career path, which some of us old enough to know better, still choose - for whatever our reasons. This is why one should be skeptical when dealing with the investor side of ht equation. They will talk a good game, about their love for entrepreneurs, but what they love is those who make them money. They don't really care about those left burnt out. Similarly the media which fetishizes startup success/failure and creates the false narrative, from the safety of a paycheck and never having put it all on the line. [Insert obligatory MAN IN TH ARENA quotes here..]
benatkin 14y ago
No, all the other posts I've read about him are very good. When you give a eulogy you don't criticize the other people giving a eulogy. The lack of details didn't take away from the message, in most cases. For an example of this, see Mark Suster's two posts. I think both of his posts stand alone.
richardjordan 14y ago
Jason raises a good point. The stresses of startups often go unmentioned, or certainly minimized, in the myth-of-the -heroic-founder out startup narratives become after the fact of a success. Failure and hardship are rites of passage, right? But the collateral damage is real. Going out on a limb financially is celebrated but most stories don't end with a win - just the ones we tell. Most startups fail and a lot of these risk takers we celebrate end up with financial strains for years to come, busted relationships or broken marriages. Anything can derail the startup process. Experienced entrepreneurs are acutely aware of this and if the end comes when you're out on that limb it can be devastating. I am sure there are many more suicides and countless lives broken that we just don't hear about because they never achieved prominence or success. It's worth pausing a moment to think about that. To the criticism of Jason's post. He has his haters for whatever reasons, though I find them to be highly unfair - I think it's clear that he genuinely loves startups and will do whatever he can to help the ecosystem succeed. I've met him twice and he's been nothing but generous. I think it's wrong to accuse him of using this for traffic. It's an important point he's making, and he's right nobody was talking about it in this case, for some reason.
- Zimahl 14y ago
  Ilya's mother reportedly said, "I strongly believe that if Ilya did not start this project and stayed in school, he would be well and alive today." I agree on the startup stress but you have to admit that the above quote isn't fair either. College kids attempt suicide at a pretty regular clip - be it from social or institutional pressures. I personally believe that suicidal people are prone and it's not their circumstances so much as it's them.
  - einhverfr 14y ago
    > I agree on the startup stress but you have to admit that the above quote isn't fair either. College kids attempt suicide at a pretty regular clip - be it from social or institutional pressures. I personally believe that suicidal people are prone and it's not their circumstances so much as it's them. But you can't separate social context from this, can you? College students, for example, are very much liminal figures. One essentially enter adolescence somewhere around high school and becomes a full adult after graduating college in our society. This extended adolescence is very likely a part of the problem, and it keeps people in this liminal state. The same problem exists in start-ups. We think of the start-up phase as being sort of an extended rite of passage, which involves insane work schedules, personal sacrifices, and the like and which lasts from founding to IPO or acquisition. But that puts people through the same basic problems just to a greater extent. Again, I have nothing against insane work schedules and personal sacrifices. These can be helpful in this rite of passage process but one has to admit that they are not sustainable, and therefore one goal needs to narrow the scope. I would prefer to see the scope narrowed to be from launch to first customer delivery. Sure, put in 160 hr workweeks between those points, have bunk beds in the break room, or whatever you need to do. An extended hackathon isn't a bad way to look at it. Let everyone live in the office for all I care, but make it a short and reasonable time for this. Don't let it stretch on for five months let alone five years. (In reality two weeks is probably optimal.) Then get back to a normal work week, and running a proper business.
antirez 14y ago
I'm not sure the problem is with being a founder. Actually this can be a very stimulating experience in your life, and may even bring some economical boost that is not bad for stability. I think the problem is with the culture of being founder: there is agreement that you can sacrifice almost everything for your work. It is not true. As long as you enjoy what you do, it's ok to work long hours at critical stages of your startup, but it is also ok to take pauses, go to drink with friends, and avoid the pressure in general. Another thing that always makes me a bit suspicious is that "we are going to change the world". This is a good recipe for pressure. Maybe there is another way to take it, and is simply, I work without too expectations, I try to do my best, but well it's not a drama if this does not work as expected. I'm also worth as an individual, outside my work, outside the business. Maybe we are building a too aggressive culture and this is the result? I think that "back to technology" should be the motto for the next 10 years.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  I think that "back to technology" should be the motto for the next 10 years. Yes, I agree. I am really hoping to see a Flight to Substance. I am doubtful, however, because I think the "cool kids" malignancy-- the VC darlings, the investor in-crowd who all collude on terms-- has taken over the organism. I am very optimistic about the long-term future of the technological economy, but I think there's going to be some short-term bleeding and pain before we get there, because nothing good is going to happen until some established players are removed from power and they won't go down without a fight. The "change the world" bullshit coming from most of these VC darlings is an excuse to underpay and exploit people, especially fresh college kids. Bill Gates is fucking changing the world. Some build-to-flip IUsedThisToilet app that exists to get some idiot a hiring bonus along with his douchey PM job is not.
  - javert 14y ago
    In a free market, nobody truly has power. If they suck, they just cease to matter and can safely be ignored. Only the _competition_ matters, and people who suck usually aren't the competition (if they are, they are easy pickings). Now, none of this applies if we're talking about big business vendor/regulatory lock-in type situations, but that's not the part of the economy I think you're talking about. So what makes you thnk that the current VC "organism" has "power" and that "nothing good is going to happen" until they are removed? I mean, why can't people just ignore them and go do things separately?
klpa 14y ago
Mental health care is 1) unaffordable 2) inaccessible and 3) socially unacceptable. I'm a well-paid white-collar professional and I'd still find the financial burden of between $150 to $250 a week or more hard to swallow. Seriously, who has an extra $600/month lying around? And that's a conservative cost - heaven help you if your insurance isn't up to snuff or if you need meds. Not to mention the extra time out of one's day, because most therapists will not do house calls. How much does an hour of your time cost? How much more that of an entrepreneur? Let's talk social acceptability: how many people want to invest in a person (which is really what entrepreneurship is all about) who is seeing a therapist? How many people want to have relationships with those they know have mental health issues?
- mercutio2 14y ago
  Hmm. In the US it really depends on your insurance. I was annoyed when my excellent therapist's copay went up from $15 to $20... I don't know anyone in my social circle who feels any stigma about therapy, it's fantastic!
- einhverfr 14y ago
  > Mental health care is 1) unaffordable 2) inaccessible and 3) socially unacceptable. 4) incomplete. There is inadequate (and declining!) consideration to social context in the question of mental health.
astine 14y ago
The reason, I think, that people are being so circumspect about Jody's death, is because it is so close on the heels of Aaron Swartz's own demise. Suicide tends to happen in waves where the first one tends to encourage copycats. Aaron received a lot of publicity and it's not impossible that Jody was partly inspired/encouraged to follow through as a result. I think a lot of people are concerned about encouraging more potential suicides in the startup community. Whether or not this is the way to do that, I do not know.
- EvanKelly 14y ago
  When I saw the post on Jody's death, I almost made a comment similar to this, but I didn't know how to phrase it. I'm afraid the terms "inspired" and "encouraged" don't properly convey the mechanism of "suicide waves". I'm still having a hard time describing it, but I think seeing suicides from people in a similar situation to you almost reminds you that suicide is an option at your disposal
  - tossacct 14y ago
    >>> I almost made a comment similar to this, but I didn't know how to phrase it. Really? >>>I think seeing suicides from people in a similar situation to you almost reminds you that suicide is an option at your disposal Seems like a pretty damn good comment. Make it a top level on the next suicide thread, maybe it will help someone think more rationally about WHY they are suddenly looking at suicide as an option.
- ajaymehta 14y ago
  But maybe -- making this discussion more public would lead the surrounding friends/family of people like Aaron and Jody to be extra aware of this possibility? I think either way, public or (relatively) private, similar people in a bad mental place are going to hear about this.
j_s 14y ago
I've never read a blog post at launch.co before, interesting that the author chooses not to include any bio.
- bostonpete 14y ago
  The author is Jason Calacanis.
dmoney 14y ago
Not to take away from the tragedy of these founders' deaths, or from the negative effects of unrealistic expectations, but is there evidence that these expectations or the pressure they were under caused their suicides? Is their any data on the suicide rate in the startup community vs. the population at large?
guard-of-terra 14y ago
Maybe Wil Shipley nailed the problem in his "On Being Crazy": http://blog.wilshipley.com/2005/05/on-being-crazy.html http://blog.wilshipley.com/2005/05/on-being-crazy.html So, is genius linked with craziness? Is this why we aren't all geniuses? Is mankind only so smart because if we get any smarter, we cease to function correctly? Maybe it's just not evolutionarily advantageous to be smarter than we are; it makes us mopey, and we end up cutting our ears off when we're trying to woo girls, which rarely results in offspring.
endlessvoid94 14y ago
I care very deeply for my mental health and part of that is balance. My parents always taught me to maintain balance, and it's turning out to be the most important (and hardest) pursuit of my life right now, as I do a startup of my own. Get up early, go home at a reasonable hour (5 or 6pm) and leave your computer at work. Read a book, go out with friends, have a social life when you have the energy. Do not sacrifice your health for extended periods of time -- it's not worth your mental, physical, and social health to get a bunch of money.
ahoyhere 14y ago
Yes, we should. Thank you for bringing it up. The OP makes some good points about the risks and ridiculous time/energy expenditures of "startups," but he misses the most dangerous element. Grandiosity is a problem in the startup space. Grandiosity can be a sign of personality disorders… or, if you ask me, it can be a sign of hanging out with people who exhibit grandiosity, tell you it's what you have to have to achieve what you want, who laud you for having it, and who mysteriously aren't there to help you when you fall on your ass. In fact, who tear you up when you do. Yeah, it sounds like high school, doesn't it? Only the stakes are a lot higher. Every time I hear somebody say they are going to "change the world," I cringe. I imagine those people as some combination of arrogant fucks (pardon my english) and/or depression waiting to happen. Please, please be reasonable. If you want to change the world, start by volunteering at a soup kitchen. Don't expect your startup to "change the world." Don't think you have to, to achieve your dreams and help people, either. Don't talk yourself up. If you're insecure, let yourself be insecure, don't slap a layer of grandiosity and self-aggrandizement on top. Please, don't be somebody to other people who you aren't… the more you pretend to be confident to others, while being insecure inside, the less you feel like anyone KNOWS you, or cares about you, the more alone you feel, the more likely you are to really, desperately feel the pain of isolation. The best way to be happy is to be grateful for what you have, not to constantly anticipate becoming famous or rich or having an outsized impact on the world when you haven't even made a tiny, local impact first. Have perspective. Volunteer. Spend time with your friends, and your family if you like them. If your friends exhibit all of the above symptoms, make a few new friends who are totally disconnected to the whole "ecosystem" so you can simply be real with them. (Note: not saying you should drop your grandiose friends. But consider whether they're healthy for you.) Otherwise you risk being caught up in a spiral of obsession and disconnection, a constant raising of stakes ("Who's going to change the world more!? Who's more ridiculously confident?! Who can work longer and harder?!") which will, statistically speaking, never pay off.
- pyre 14y ago
  | Every time I hear somebody say they are going to | "change the world," I cringe. I imagine those | people as some combination of arrogant fucks | (pardon my english) and/or depression waiting | to happen. During a 'cultural fit' interview, I was asked, "How I Was Changing The World(tm)." They went on to talk about how they were changing the world because someone on the other side of the globe was using their app on a smart phone to manage their business. I just remember thinking that it was a pretty arrogant stance and question. (If the person on the other side of the world has a business and smart phone, they probably doing pretty well...)
foenix 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide#Journalism_codes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide#Journalism_code...
Mz 14y ago
You know, I know the copycat thing is a real phenomenon, but let me suggest that it could also just be that we all live in the same world and are often subjected to additional stress around the same time. The so called "January Effect", of a dip in sales, can be pretty directly tied to overspending for Christmas the month before. January is also a time when people start looking at the paperwork involved in filing taxes, a big UGH for most people. And many people put on a happy face for the holidays while feeling worse than ever because the merriment around them often reminds them how empty and unhappy they are. It isn't unusual for people to delay announcing ugly decisions, like a decision to divorce, until after the holidays. Maybe this was a long time coming* for both Aaron and Jody, for completely unrelated reasons, and perhaps the close timing is "coincidental" in that we are all subjected to some of the same larger trends, no matter who we are. * I do not necessarily mean years. I am more suggesting weeks, in other words maybe they both decided Christmas was not the time to do this to other people.
- patmcguire 14y ago
  There's a big post-holidays suicide bump, as well as one in the spring. Events that are supposed to mean things are getting better and then don't.
danbmil99 14y ago
I am reminded of the debate going on around American football. The big "concussions" are obvious, and in a good situation you will have friends, family and colleagues on your side (although disappointed), because the event and its impact are big and obvious to everyone around you. But the slow buildup of damage due to the everyday smashing of your head against one brick wall or another, is both hard to measure, and difficult to communicate to people outside the startup bubble world. And even if you do get some sympathy, inevitably they say something like "you're so smart and talented, you can get a job anywhere and live a normal, relaxed life!" They're trying to help, but to your ears it just sounds like "PLEASE, QUIT NOW BEFORE YOU FAIL AND ALL YOUR DREAMS COME CRASHING DOWN AND YOU FALL APART IN FRONT OF EVERYONE WHO LOVES AND ADMIRES YOU!" and it has the paradoxical effect of making you even more depressed. Just saying.
oh_sigh 14y ago
So what lawsuit was Jody Sherman involved in? That must have been the reason he killed himself. We should take down that prosecutor, where ever they may be.
- lisper 14y ago
  What a bone-headed thing to say. Just because one prosecutor went rogue on a geek doesn't mean they've all gone rogue.
  - oh_sigh 14y ago
    I'm sorry that you thought I was being serious. My point was this: Just because someone commits suicide doesn't mean that there is some looming external threat that makes them kill themselves. It was taken as a given on hackernews, and the tech community as a whole, that Aaron killed himself because of the lawsuit against him. Very few people brought up that it might have been the crippling depression that he suffered from, and those who did were downvoted rapidly.
    - lisper 14y ago
      Sorry, I guess my iron-o-meter needs calibrating. (Someone should invent an emoticon for irony.)
orionblastar 14y ago
Look I have talked about this before but was ignored. There is a lot of stress in the industry, and if people don't know how to handle that stress a mental illness may develop from it. In my case I developed schzioaffective disorder, and ended up in a hospital and short-term disability. After that I was fired after having a panic attack. When others discovered I was mentally ill they bullied and harassed me. Yes adult bullying, and harassing, and adult social kliqs and all that exist. It is not just teenagers who are abused by bullies but adults as well. In your startup you have to have a way to treat people who develop a mental illness and find a way to get them therapy and medication to get better and accommodate them and support them. You should not consider them of less value and demote them and cut their salary, you should not fire them, or consider it a weakness or personality flaw. The way classical management treats the mentally ill, it is no wonder that suicides are up, and that some became workplace shooters, and many others just go on disability or become homeless or end up in an endless cycle of jails and mental hospitals. You need to have management deal with mental illnesses better than it currently does and it can even effect the CEO of your business as well. It would do you well to hire some people with psychology, and sociology skills that can work with therapy that any employee can go to for help. You also need people who can watch out for warning signs as well. This should be a function of your HR department and your EAP (Employee Assistance Program) with the state or some other government agency. Yes I've been suicidal in the past, yes I had friends kill themselves over issues of not finding work, stress from the job, and other stuff. I am a member of Generation-X the suicide generation and in my early 40's. It is a miracle that I am still alive, but since I am mentally ill no startup or community wants me. Being excluded can lead to suicidal thoughts as well you know.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
Evbn 14y ago
Should we talk about the fact that President Obama didn't just die?

186 points by danboarder 14y ago

This seems to me to simply be a gratuitous speculation on Jody's death with no other purpose than to try and generate traffic by appearing to be some sort of brave, dissenting voice. It is completely unnecessary and in bad taste to pontificate on his cause of death and, even if it was suicide, I really struggle to see the benefit of discussing what is ultimately a private matter for his family. The argument that discussing the circumstances of Jody's death is necessary because there is a systemic issue of founders killing themselves is outrageous and an insult to the reader's intelligence. Is there any evidence at all that founders are more likely to kill themselves than, say, the unemployed or indeed any other vocational group? Sure, being a founder is stressful but then so are many other vocations in life...

shardling 14y ago
The author seems completely certain of the cause of death -- it certainly isn't presented as speculation.
- hect0r 14y ago
  By his own admission, he had only had "dozens" of emails with Jody over a few years and wasn't a close friend. Given Jody's family and close friends haven't spoken on this topic, I still consider the internet pontification of someone with only a sparse email-based connection to Jody to be speculation since he presents absolutely no evidence to support his allegations nor is there any corroboration from those with a confirmed connection to Jody.
  - clicks 14y ago
    It was confirmed earlier this week by a news station local to his area, Jody used a gun. http://www.lvrj.com/business/jody-sherman-ecomom-founder-and-tech-entrepreneur-dies-at-47-188929801.html http://www.lvrj.com/business/jody-sherman-ecomom-founder-and... -- "The Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner confirmed that Sherman, Ecomom's chairman and CEO, died early Monday morning. It was ruled a suicide."
    - hect0r 14y ago
      Even if that is true, it doesn't change the fact that when the person's own family and friends are not discussing this matter, it doesn't behoove a stranger (more or less) blogging about it. It just strikes me as being in bad taste.
      - danso 14y ago
        I think you have really, really missed the point of the OP. First of all, what family and friends want is not the sole factor in what should be publicly discussed. If I die because I am drunk behind the wheel tomorrow, I bet none of my loved ones would want to focus on that aspect of my passing, and yet I think a case could be made that it is a legitimate topic of public concern. Of course what Jody did was a private decision...and yet that is the problem the OP is alluding to. From all reports, Jody was a wonderful engaging person with a lot to live for. And yet he killed himself? If there is something about the tech world that causes such wonderful people to be untreated and lost, then is is a topic that should be considered publicly, and not hushed on the grounds of "bad taste"
        lisper 14y ago
        I don't want to speak ill of the dead, but I knew Jody, and while he had many terrific qualities, he was not a saint. He had issues. And his biggest problem (at least when I knew him) was his unwillingness to admit he had a problem. It's all but impossible to help someone who won't help themselves.
  - richardjordan 14y ago
    When a prominent member of the startup community commits suicide I think it is clearly in the public interest for the leading media voices in the startup community to discuss how this is impacted by the culture o that startup community. I am afraid I'm not understanding the beef here.
patgarner 14y ago
Why do you take this article so personally? I feel like your comment is way overblown. My personal impression is that this person felt affected by what happened and that this blog post is one way of expressing that. I think it's natural when someone dies this way for someone who feels that loss to question why it happened. I certainly felt that way about Aaron Swartz and I didn't know him at all. That's all I see here and I have a hard time understanding why you are so offended.
hypnocode 14y ago
I think you're missing the point, that perhaps we need to examine the culture we're creating. The benefit of discussing the matter is that we may be able to prevent future tragedies from occurring if we find thing we can do differently to relieve the pressure of being a founder.
rm999 14y ago
I think the attitude of your comment is what he is dissenting against. Why should we ignore the fact that prominent people in our community have committed suicide? Why should people who bring it up have to deal with anger? My take on this blog entry is that the writer wants constructive dialogue. I'm personally fine with that. Suicide is a touchy subject and I understand some people aren't comfortable discussing it. But I think your accusations against the author are unreasonable.

DuskStar 14y ago

The post title to me has the possibility of him still being alive... I find the full title much more clear. "Should We Talk about the Fact That Jody Sherman Didn't Just Die, But That He Killed Himself?"

danboarder 14y ago
The title was truncated to fit in the allotted HN title field (80 characters). I agree it could be re-written for further clarity though.
- DuskStar 14y ago
  Ah, that makes sense. I was half expecting an article on how they haven't recovered his body and there were plane tickets to Guatemala purchased in his name...
- iNate2000 14y ago
  How about changing it to "didn't only die" or "didn't merely die"? I first thought it was about someone who hadn't died. Then I started reading the article and thought it was about someone with the same name. THEN I realized what I was reading.
  - danboarder 14y ago
    @iNate2000 good suggestions, I had considered a similar edit but then found the edit link was no longer available due to HN's time limit for making edits.

arram 14y ago

"I keep saying how brutally hard this is. Each time you crest the rise in front of you, it just makes it clear the size of the even larger hill that looms beyond it. It goes on for a long time. I pissed blood for years keeping Netflix alive while we figured that shit out – as did every other successful entrepreneur in the valley." - Marc Randolph, Founder/CEO, Netflix.

mattmaroon 14y ago
And that's when things are going well.
23david 14y ago
It breaks you mentally bit by bit, and I personally experiencing this a few years ago on a startup. It was horrible and unexpected to find myself mentally unable to get my work done. Essentially it seems that the stress hormones released by constant physical & mental stress physically damages/alters the emotional centers of your brain. And over time the damage becomes more-or-less permanent. There is some research to support this, but it's a very new field (Some good research is coming out of the PTSD research being funded by the military.) I don't think it's far off to say that at least mentally, starting a company is a lot like going off to war. Less risk of physical injury perhaps, but similar risks for mental injury. For healthy people, but particularly people genetically susceptible to stress-related disorders, startup work can trigger full-blown depression and bi-polar manic/depressive cycles. That's just part of the job, and you need to be prepared for it and take care of yourself. IMO, successful founders are the ones that successfully cope with the inevitable manic/depressive cycles. Self-awareness of our limitations, and good medication are life-savers. Once you start testing out different medication options, prepare to spend up to a year finding a combination that works to help keep you stable through the most stressful and depressed times. Don't give up hope. Ever.
- foenix 14y ago
  In after the 1991 Gulf War, PTSD rates spiked beyond rates ever seen in the US Army. A study commissioned to examine the effects of PTSD found that this long-term stress was actually causing the hippocampus (the short-to-med/long term memory module of the brain, amongst other things) to atrophy. This confirmed a similar effect they had found with mice a few years earlier. The next push is to replicate the more positive result of environment enrichment, which has been shown in mice but not people. Basically, environment enrichment has been shown to help facilitate LTP (long-term potentiation — an extreme period of neurogenosis) and makes the hippocampus less prone to stress-induced atrophy. I've personally been a few very high stress work environments, but I use this knowledge to help convince myself to relax productively.

nicksergeant 14y ago

I said this on Twitter and I think it's worth mentioning here. This stuff is sad. And it makes me think that true startup founders aren't doing it right. If your startup is so central to your life experiences that without it, life isn't worth living, then you have a problem, and you should seek professional help. Making this worse is the culture of startup founders gloating about how hard they work and how much of a mental toll it takes on them (and those around them). Work smarter, not harder.

richardjordan 14y ago
The system in Silicon Valley pretty much forces startup founders to make this all or nothing approach - at least for the first several years of a startup's life - it is virtually impossible to compete without doing so (and yes there are rare exceptions). The same VCs that laud founders also push them to these extremes while claiming to support balance. I know few founders who haven't experienced that.
- nicksergeant 14y ago
  That's incredibly sad. There's more to life, but this brainwashing of startup founders seems to be stripping more lives than it enriches.
  - richardjordan 14y ago
    It's not so much brainwashing founders - well I suppose it is with the young 'uns that come in and are told this is an easy way to riches just follow steps 1, 2, 3. It's just the reality of choosing this career path, which some of us old enough to know better, still choose - for whatever our reasons. This is why one should be skeptical when dealing with the investor side of ht equation. They will talk a good game, about their love for entrepreneurs, but what they love is those who make them money. They don't really care about those left burnt out. Similarly the media which fetishizes startup success/failure and creates the false narrative, from the safety of a paycheck and never having put it all on the line. [Insert obligatory MAN IN TH ARENA quotes here..]

benatkin 14y ago

No, all the other posts I've read about him are very good. When you give a eulogy you don't criticize the other people giving a eulogy. The lack of details didn't take away from the message, in most cases. For an example of this, see Mark Suster's two posts. I think both of his posts stand alone.

richardjordan 14y ago

Jason raises a good point. The stresses of startups often go unmentioned, or certainly minimized, in the myth-of-the -heroic-founder out startup narratives become after the fact of a success. Failure and hardship are rites of passage, right? But the collateral damage is real. Going out on a limb financially is celebrated but most stories don't end with a win - just the ones we tell. Most startups fail and a lot of these risk takers we celebrate end up with financial strains for years to come, busted relationships or broken marriages. Anything can derail the startup process. Experienced entrepreneurs are acutely aware of this and if the end comes when you're out on that limb it can be devastating. I am sure there are many more suicides and countless lives broken that we just don't hear about because they never achieved prominence or success. It's worth pausing a moment to think about that. To the criticism of Jason's post. He has his haters for whatever reasons, though I find them to be highly unfair - I think it's clear that he genuinely loves startups and will do whatever he can to help the ecosystem succeed. I've met him twice and he's been nothing but generous. I think it's wrong to accuse him of using this for traffic. It's an important point he's making, and he's right nobody was talking about it in this case, for some reason.

Zimahl 14y ago
Ilya's mother reportedly said, "I strongly believe that if Ilya did not start this project and stayed in school, he would be well and alive today." I agree on the startup stress but you have to admit that the above quote isn't fair either. College kids attempt suicide at a pretty regular clip - be it from social or institutional pressures. I personally believe that suicidal people are prone and it's not their circumstances so much as it's them.
- einhverfr 14y ago
  > I agree on the startup stress but you have to admit that the above quote isn't fair either. College kids attempt suicide at a pretty regular clip - be it from social or institutional pressures. I personally believe that suicidal people are prone and it's not their circumstances so much as it's them. But you can't separate social context from this, can you? College students, for example, are very much liminal figures. One essentially enter adolescence somewhere around high school and becomes a full adult after graduating college in our society. This extended adolescence is very likely a part of the problem, and it keeps people in this liminal state. The same problem exists in start-ups. We think of the start-up phase as being sort of an extended rite of passage, which involves insane work schedules, personal sacrifices, and the like and which lasts from founding to IPO or acquisition. But that puts people through the same basic problems just to a greater extent. Again, I have nothing against insane work schedules and personal sacrifices. These can be helpful in this rite of passage process but one has to admit that they are not sustainable, and therefore one goal needs to narrow the scope. I would prefer to see the scope narrowed to be from launch to first customer delivery. Sure, put in 160 hr workweeks between those points, have bunk beds in the break room, or whatever you need to do. An extended hackathon isn't a bad way to look at it. Let everyone live in the office for all I care, but make it a short and reasonable time for this. Don't let it stretch on for five months let alone five years. (In reality two weeks is probably optimal.) Then get back to a normal work week, and running a proper business.

antirez 14y ago

I'm not sure the problem is with being a founder. Actually this can be a very stimulating experience in your life, and may even bring some economical boost that is not bad for stability. I think the problem is with the culture of being founder: there is agreement that you can sacrifice almost everything for your work. It is not true. As long as you enjoy what you do, it's ok to work long hours at critical stages of your startup, but it is also ok to take pauses, go to drink with friends, and avoid the pressure in general. Another thing that always makes me a bit suspicious is that "we are going to change the world". This is a good recipe for pressure. Maybe there is another way to take it, and is simply, I work without too expectations, I try to do my best, but well it's not a drama if this does not work as expected. I'm also worth as an individual, outside my work, outside the business. Maybe we are building a too aggressive culture and this is the result? I think that "back to technology" should be the motto for the next 10 years.

michaelochurch 14y ago
I think that "back to technology" should be the motto for the next 10 years. Yes, I agree. I am really hoping to see a Flight to Substance. I am doubtful, however, because I think the "cool kids" malignancy-- the VC darlings, the investor in-crowd who all collude on terms-- has taken over the organism. I am very optimistic about the long-term future of the technological economy, but I think there's going to be some short-term bleeding and pain before we get there, because nothing good is going to happen until some established players are removed from power and they won't go down without a fight. The "change the world" bullshit coming from most of these VC darlings is an excuse to underpay and exploit people, especially fresh college kids. Bill Gates is fucking changing the world. Some build-to-flip IUsedThisToilet app that exists to get some idiot a hiring bonus along with his douchey PM job is not.
- javert 14y ago
  In a free market, nobody truly has power. If they suck, they just cease to matter and can safely be ignored. Only the _competition_ matters, and people who suck usually aren't the competition (if they are, they are easy pickings). Now, none of this applies if we're talking about big business vendor/regulatory lock-in type situations, but that's not the part of the economy I think you're talking about. So what makes you thnk that the current VC "organism" has "power" and that "nothing good is going to happen" until they are removed? I mean, why can't people just ignore them and go do things separately?

klpa 14y ago

Mental health care is 1) unaffordable 2) inaccessible and 3) socially unacceptable. I'm a well-paid white-collar professional and I'd still find the financial burden of between $150 to $250 a week or more hard to swallow. Seriously, who has an extra $600/month lying around? And that's a conservative cost - heaven help you if your insurance isn't up to snuff or if you need meds. Not to mention the extra time out of one's day, because most therapists will not do house calls. How much does an hour of your time cost? How much more that of an entrepreneur? Let's talk social acceptability: how many people want to invest in a person (which is really what entrepreneurship is all about) who is seeing a therapist? How many people want to have relationships with those they know have mental health issues?

mercutio2 14y ago
Hmm. In the US it really depends on your insurance. I was annoyed when my excellent therapist's copay went up from $15 to $20... I don't know anyone in my social circle who feels any stigma about therapy, it's fantastic!
einhverfr 14y ago
> Mental health care is 1) unaffordable 2) inaccessible and 3) socially unacceptable. 4) incomplete. There is inadequate (and declining!) consideration to social context in the question of mental health.

astine 14y ago

The reason, I think, that people are being so circumspect about Jody's death, is because it is so close on the heels of Aaron Swartz's own demise. Suicide tends to happen in waves where the first one tends to encourage copycats. Aaron received a lot of publicity and it's not impossible that Jody was partly inspired/encouraged to follow through as a result. I think a lot of people are concerned about encouraging more potential suicides in the startup community. Whether or not this is the way to do that, I do not know.

EvanKelly 14y ago
When I saw the post on Jody's death, I almost made a comment similar to this, but I didn't know how to phrase it. I'm afraid the terms "inspired" and "encouraged" don't properly convey the mechanism of "suicide waves". I'm still having a hard time describing it, but I think seeing suicides from people in a similar situation to you almost reminds you that suicide is an option at your disposal
- tossacct 14y ago
  >>> I almost made a comment similar to this, but I didn't know how to phrase it. Really? >>>I think seeing suicides from people in a similar situation to you almost reminds you that suicide is an option at your disposal Seems like a pretty damn good comment. Make it a top level on the next suicide thread, maybe it will help someone think more rationally about WHY they are suddenly looking at suicide as an option.
ajaymehta 14y ago
But maybe -- making this discussion more public would lead the surrounding friends/family of people like Aaron and Jody to be extra aware of this possibility? I think either way, public or (relatively) private, similar people in a bad mental place are going to hear about this.

j_s 14y ago

I've never read a blog post at launch.co before, interesting that the author chooses not to include any bio.

bostonpete 14y ago
The author is Jason Calacanis.

dmoney 14y ago

Not to take away from the tragedy of these founders' deaths, or from the negative effects of unrealistic expectations, but is there evidence that these expectations or the pressure they were under caused their suicides? Is their any data on the suicide rate in the startup community vs. the population at large?

guard-of-terra 14y ago

Maybe Wil Shipley nailed the problem in his "On Being Crazy": http://blog.wilshipley.com/2005/05/on-being-crazy.html http://blog.wilshipley.com/2005/05/on-being-crazy.html So, is genius linked with craziness? Is this why we aren't all geniuses? Is mankind only so smart because if we get any smarter, we cease to function correctly? Maybe it's just not evolutionarily advantageous to be smarter than we are; it makes us mopey, and we end up cutting our ears off when we're trying to woo girls, which rarely results in offspring.

endlessvoid94 14y ago

I care very deeply for my mental health and part of that is balance. My parents always taught me to maintain balance, and it's turning out to be the most important (and hardest) pursuit of my life right now, as I do a startup of my own. Get up early, go home at a reasonable hour (5 or 6pm) and leave your computer at work. Read a book, go out with friends, have a social life when you have the energy. Do not sacrifice your health for extended periods of time -- it's not worth your mental, physical, and social health to get a bunch of money.

ahoyhere 14y ago

Yes, we should. Thank you for bringing it up. The OP makes some good points about the risks and ridiculous time/energy expenditures of "startups," but he misses the most dangerous element. Grandiosity is a problem in the startup space. Grandiosity can be a sign of personality disorders… or, if you ask me, it can be a sign of hanging out with people who exhibit grandiosity, tell you it's what you have to have to achieve what you want, who laud you for having it, and who mysteriously aren't there to help you when you fall on your ass. In fact, who tear you up when you do. Yeah, it sounds like high school, doesn't it? Only the stakes are a lot higher. Every time I hear somebody say they are going to "change the world," I cringe. I imagine those people as some combination of arrogant fucks (pardon my english) and/or depression waiting to happen. Please, please be reasonable. If you want to change the world, start by volunteering at a soup kitchen. Don't expect your startup to "change the world." Don't think you have to, to achieve your dreams and help people, either. Don't talk yourself up. If you're insecure, let yourself be insecure, don't slap a layer of grandiosity and self-aggrandizement on top. Please, don't be somebody to other people who you aren't… the more you pretend to be confident to others, while being insecure inside, the less you feel like anyone KNOWS you, or cares about you, the more alone you feel, the more likely you are to really, desperately feel the pain of isolation. The best way to be happy is to be grateful for what you have, not to constantly anticipate becoming famous or rich or having an outsized impact on the world when you haven't even made a tiny, local impact first. Have perspective. Volunteer. Spend time with your friends, and your family if you like them. If your friends exhibit all of the above symptoms, make a few new friends who are totally disconnected to the whole "ecosystem" so you can simply be real with them. (Note: not saying you should drop your grandiose friends. But consider whether they're healthy for you.) Otherwise you risk being caught up in a spiral of obsession and disconnection, a constant raising of stakes ("Who's going to change the world more!? Who's more ridiculously confident?! Who can work longer and harder?!") which will, statistically speaking, never pay off.

pyre 14y ago
| Every time I hear somebody say they are going to | "change the world," I cringe. I imagine those | people as some combination of arrogant fucks | (pardon my english) and/or depression waiting | to happen. During a 'cultural fit' interview, I was asked, "How I Was Changing The World(tm)." They went on to talk about how they were changing the world because someone on the other side of the globe was using their app on a smart phone to manage their business. I just remember thinking that it was a pretty arrogant stance and question. (If the person on the other side of the world has a business and smart phone, they probably doing pretty well...)

foenix 14y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide#Journalism_codes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide#Journalism_code...

Mz 14y ago

You know, I know the copycat thing is a real phenomenon, but let me suggest that it could also just be that we all live in the same world and are often subjected to additional stress around the same time. The so called "January Effect", of a dip in sales, can be pretty directly tied to overspending for Christmas the month before. January is also a time when people start looking at the paperwork involved in filing taxes, a big UGH for most people. And many people put on a happy face for the holidays while feeling worse than ever because the merriment around them often reminds them how empty and unhappy they are. It isn't unusual for people to delay announcing ugly decisions, like a decision to divorce, until after the holidays. Maybe this was a long time coming* for both Aaron and Jody, for completely unrelated reasons, and perhaps the close timing is "coincidental" in that we are all subjected to some of the same larger trends, no matter who we are. * I do not necessarily mean years. I am more suggesting weeks, in other words maybe they both decided Christmas was not the time to do this to other people.

patmcguire 14y ago
There's a big post-holidays suicide bump, as well as one in the spring. Events that are supposed to mean things are getting better and then don't.

danbmil99 14y ago

I am reminded of the debate going on around American football. The big "concussions" are obvious, and in a good situation you will have friends, family and colleagues on your side (although disappointed), because the event and its impact are big and obvious to everyone around you. But the slow buildup of damage due to the everyday smashing of your head against one brick wall or another, is both hard to measure, and difficult to communicate to people outside the startup bubble world. And even if you do get some sympathy, inevitably they say something like "you're so smart and talented, you can get a job anywhere and live a normal, relaxed life!" They're trying to help, but to your ears it just sounds like "PLEASE, QUIT NOW BEFORE YOU FAIL AND ALL YOUR DREAMS COME CRASHING DOWN AND YOU FALL APART IN FRONT OF EVERYONE WHO LOVES AND ADMIRES YOU!" and it has the paradoxical effect of making you even more depressed. Just saying.

oh_sigh 14y ago

So what lawsuit was Jody Sherman involved in? That must have been the reason he killed himself. We should take down that prosecutor, where ever they may be.

lisper 14y ago
What a bone-headed thing to say. Just because one prosecutor went rogue on a geek doesn't mean they've all gone rogue.
- oh_sigh 14y ago
  I'm sorry that you thought I was being serious. My point was this: Just because someone commits suicide doesn't mean that there is some looming external threat that makes them kill themselves. It was taken as a given on hackernews, and the tech community as a whole, that Aaron killed himself because of the lawsuit against him. Very few people brought up that it might have been the crippling depression that he suffered from, and those who did were downvoted rapidly.
  - lisper 14y ago
    Sorry, I guess my iron-o-meter needs calibrating. (Someone should invent an emoticon for irony.)

orionblastar 14y ago

Look I have talked about this before but was ignored. There is a lot of stress in the industry, and if people don't know how to handle that stress a mental illness may develop from it. In my case I developed schzioaffective disorder, and ended up in a hospital and short-term disability. After that I was fired after having a panic attack. When others discovered I was mentally ill they bullied and harassed me. Yes adult bullying, and harassing, and adult social kliqs and all that exist. It is not just teenagers who are abused by bullies but adults as well. In your startup you have to have a way to treat people who develop a mental illness and find a way to get them therapy and medication to get better and accommodate them and support them. You should not consider them of less value and demote them and cut their salary, you should not fire them, or consider it a weakness or personality flaw. The way classical management treats the mentally ill, it is no wonder that suicides are up, and that some became workplace shooters, and many others just go on disability or become homeless or end up in an endless cycle of jails and mental hospitals. You need to have management deal with mental illnesses better than it currently does and it can even effect the CEO of your business as well. It would do you well to hire some people with psychology, and sociology skills that can work with therapy that any employee can go to for help. You also need people who can watch out for warning signs as well. This should be a function of your HR department and your EAP (Employee Assistance Program) with the state or some other government agency. Yes I've been suicidal in the past, yes I had friends kill themselves over issues of not finding work, stress from the job, and other stuff. I am a member of Generation-X the suicide generation and in my early 40's. It is a miracle that I am still alive, but since I am mentally ill no startup or community wants me. Being excluded can lead to suicidal thoughts as well you know.

deleted 14y ago

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Evbn 14y ago

Should we talk about the fact that President Obama didn't just die?