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> It's not obvious that they are wrong in that assessment. Any entity with the reach of the United States is naturally going to have connections with all kinds

by wololo 14y ago

> It's not obvious that they are wrong in that assessment. Any entity with the reach of the United States is naturally going to have connections with all kinds of actors. While the idea of Americans/Zionists/Illuminati/Nibiru pulling the strings behind every major event is no doubt very exciting for conspiracy theorists (eg. I'm getting 2.28 million google hits for ["dalai lama * a cia agent"]), and simpler (ignoring the agency of the citizens of those countries), that doesn't mean sane people should believe extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence. It's not in anyone's interest to topple the PRC, even if it were possible, which it is not.

temphn 14y ago
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/world/africa/weapons-sent-to-libyan-rebels-with-us-approval-fell-into-islamist-hands.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/world/africa/weapons-sent-... But in the months before, the Obama administration clearly was worried about the consequences of its hidden hand in helping arm Libyan militants, concerns that have not previously been reported. The weapons and money from Qatar strengthened militant groups in Libya, allowing them to become a destabilizing force since the fall of the Qaddafi government. http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/16/us-iran-election-twitter-usa-idUSWBT01137420090616 http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/16/us-iran-election-t... U.S. State Department speaks to Twitter over Iran The U.S. State Department said on Tuesday it had contacted the social networking service Twitter to urge it to delay a planned upgrade that would have cut daytime service to Iranians who are disputing their election. http://judiciary.house.gov/news/Hearing%20Statement%20hr2121.html http://judiciary.house.gov/news/Hearing%20Statement%20hr2121... China Democracy Promotion Act of 2011 By denying visas to certain Chinese nationals in the government who promote human rights abuses, we might as well assist Chinese patriots who work to end the lack of accountability for government officials who are part of the Chinese Communist Party. This legislation will send a message that abuses by these officials that go unchecked within China will not be ignored by the international community. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/world/asia/chinese-communist-party-faces-calls-for-democracy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/world/asia/chinese-communi... But they say the party’s agenda, as it stands today, is not visionary enough to set China on the path to stability. What is needed, they say, is a comprehensive strategy to gradually extricate the Communist Party, which has more than 80 million members, from its heavy-handed control of the economy, the courts, the news media, the military, educational institutions, civic life and just the plain day-to-day affairs of citizens. Only then, the critics argue, can the government start to address the array of issues facing China http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674008793 http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674008793 By examining the growth in individual rights, the public sphere, democratic processes, and pluralization, the author seeks to answer questions concerning the relevance of liberal democratic ideas for China and the relationship between a democratic political culture and a democratic political system. http://csis.org/files/publication/TWQ_13Winter_He.pdf http://csis.org/files/publication/TWQ_13Winter_He.pdf China represents an uncomfortable thorn in U.S. efforts to promote democracy around the world. While some projects have been successful, a large gap exists between the increasing U.S. funding in China and its "limited impact." [1] Moreover, U.S. democracy promotion in China has contributed to strategic distrust between China and the United States; Beijing perceives it as a strategic move to destabilize the rise of China and sabotage the Communist Party’s leadership. Given countless public statements like this, the PRC thinks with some justification that all these American institutions - Twitter, the State Department, the New York Times, Harvard - would like to see their government changed and replaced with a democracy. Despite their obvious internal differences, said institutions do share the assumption that exporting Western democracy will be good for China. But China sees what it has done for the Middle East and may have its own opinions. that doesn't mean sane people should believe extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence Move along, nothing to see here? Yet the NYT itself admits: "Diplomatic cables report how American officials frequently assured skeptical [Arab] governments that the training was aimed at reform, not promoting revolutions." Much of this is out in the open, so it's more coordination than conspiracy. As for the phrase "conspiracy theory", the implication of that phrase is that conspiracies don't exist. And to entertain the idea that Americans (let alone Zionists!) could possibly conspire is equated by you to believing in the Illuminati and the Nibiru. Yet in this selfsame article the NYT implies that the Chinese government engaged in a conspiracy against them. Perhaps then you believe it is only Americans that never conspire. What then to make of "the Obama administration clearly was worried about the consequences of its hidden hand in helping arm Libyan militants"?
- mylittlepony 14y ago
  > As for the phrase "conspiracy theory", the implication of that phrase is that conspiracies don't exist. Exactly this. Or that all theories are not worth our time, since they are just that, "just a theory" (implying there is no proof?), like creationists (of which, America is filled with) like to say.
  - wololo 14y ago
    > Or that all theories are not worth our time, since they are just that, "just a theory" (implying there is no proof?), like creationists (of which, America is filled with) like to say. congratulations on the beautiful ad hominem
    - mylittlepony 14y ago
      I don't see it. I was adding to the argument that you are using the word "theory" with a negative connotation, which makes absolutely no sense. And that mistake is very common in America, since you have religious folks spreading misinformation all over the country, including schools. On the other hand, I can see an ad hominem here: > the idea of Americans/Zionists/Illuminati/Nibiru pulling the strings behind every major event is no doubt very exciting for conspiracy theorists Someone is a "conspiracy theorist", so whatever he finds exciting must be wrong.
      - wololo 14y ago
        It's ad hominem because (a) bringing up creationism make the US look bad and (b) has nothing to do with conspiracy theories about the US having orchestrated the Arab Spring and plotting to overthrow the PRC. Are you saying I'm a creationist, or am being secretly influenced by them? In fact, believing in creationism fundamentally relies on conspiracy theories and makes one more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. > Someone is a "conspiracy theorist", so whatever he finds exciting must be wrong. From a Bayesian perspective, I would get behind "much more likely", yes. I'm claiming the conspiracy theories involving those four all assume magical powers in similar ways and are just as unlikely, so I think they're OK to associate with each other, as they inform on each other.

by wololo 14y ago

temphn 14y ago

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/world/africa/weapons-sent-to-libyan-rebels-with-us-approval-fell-into-islamist-hands.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/world/africa/weapons-sent-... But in the months before, the Obama administration clearly was worried about the consequences of its hidden hand in helping arm Libyan militants, concerns that have not previously been reported. The weapons and money from Qatar strengthened militant groups in Libya, allowing them to become a destabilizing force since the fall of the Qaddafi government. http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/16/us-iran-election-twitter-usa-idUSWBT01137420090616 http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/16/us-iran-election-t... U.S. State Department speaks to Twitter over Iran The U.S. State Department said on Tuesday it had contacted the social networking service Twitter to urge it to delay a planned upgrade that would have cut daytime service to Iranians who are disputing their election. http://judiciary.house.gov/news/Hearing%20Statement%20hr2121.html http://judiciary.house.gov/news/Hearing%20Statement%20hr2121... China Democracy Promotion Act of 2011 By denying visas to certain Chinese nationals in the government who promote human rights abuses, we might as well assist Chinese patriots who work to end the lack of accountability for government officials who are part of the Chinese Communist Party. This legislation will send a message that abuses by these officials that go unchecked within China will not be ignored by the international community. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/world/asia/chinese-communist-party-faces-calls-for-democracy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/world/asia/chinese-communi... But they say the party’s agenda, as it stands today, is not visionary enough to set China on the path to stability. What is needed, they say, is a comprehensive strategy to gradually extricate the Communist Party, which has more than 80 million members, from its heavy-handed control of the economy, the courts, the news media, the military, educational institutions, civic life and just the plain day-to-day affairs of citizens. Only then, the critics argue, can the government start to address the array of issues facing China http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674008793 http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674008793 By examining the growth in individual rights, the public sphere, democratic processes, and pluralization, the author seeks to answer questions concerning the relevance of liberal democratic ideas for China and the relationship between a democratic political culture and a democratic political system. http://csis.org/files/publication/TWQ_13Winter_He.pdf http://csis.org/files/publication/TWQ_13Winter_He.pdf China represents an uncomfortable thorn in U.S. efforts to promote democracy around the world. While some projects have been successful, a large gap exists between the increasing U.S. funding in China and its "limited impact." [1] Moreover, U.S. democracy promotion in China has contributed to strategic distrust between China and the United States; Beijing perceives it as a strategic move to destabilize the rise of China and sabotage the Communist Party’s leadership. Given countless public statements like this, the PRC thinks with some justification that all these American institutions - Twitter, the State Department, the New York Times, Harvard - would like to see their government changed and replaced with a democracy. Despite their obvious internal differences, said institutions do share the assumption that exporting Western democracy will be good for China. But China sees what it has done for the Middle East and may have its own opinions. that doesn't mean sane people should believe extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence Move along, nothing to see here? Yet the NYT itself admits: "Diplomatic cables report how American officials frequently assured skeptical [Arab] governments that the training was aimed at reform, not promoting revolutions." Much of this is out in the open, so it's more coordination than conspiracy. As for the phrase "conspiracy theory", the implication of that phrase is that conspiracies don't exist. And to entertain the idea that Americans (let alone Zionists!) could possibly conspire is equated by you to believing in the Illuminati and the Nibiru. Yet in this selfsame article the NYT implies that the Chinese government engaged in a conspiracy against them. Perhaps then you believe it is only Americans that never conspire. What then to make of "the Obama administration clearly was worried about the consequences of its hidden hand in helping arm Libyan militants"?

mylittlepony 14y ago
> As for the phrase "conspiracy theory", the implication of that phrase is that conspiracies don't exist. Exactly this. Or that all theories are not worth our time, since they are just that, "just a theory" (implying there is no proof?), like creationists (of which, America is filled with) like to say.
- wololo 14y ago
  > Or that all theories are not worth our time, since they are just that, "just a theory" (implying there is no proof?), like creationists (of which, America is filled with) like to say. congratulations on the beautiful ad hominem
  - mylittlepony 14y ago
    I don't see it. I was adding to the argument that you are using the word "theory" with a negative connotation, which makes absolutely no sense. And that mistake is very common in America, since you have religious folks spreading misinformation all over the country, including schools. On the other hand, I can see an ad hominem here: > the idea of Americans/Zionists/Illuminati/Nibiru pulling the strings behind every major event is no doubt very exciting for conspiracy theorists Someone is a "conspiracy theorist", so whatever he finds exciting must be wrong.
    - wololo 14y ago
      It's ad hominem because (a) bringing up creationism make the US look bad and (b) has nothing to do with conspiracy theories about the US having orchestrated the Arab Spring and plotting to overthrow the PRC. Are you saying I'm a creationist, or am being secretly influenced by them? In fact, believing in creationism fundamentally relies on conspiracy theories and makes one more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. > Someone is a "conspiracy theorist", so whatever he finds exciting must be wrong. From a Bayesian perspective, I would get behind "much more likely", yes. I'm claiming the conspiracy theories involving those four all assume magical powers in similar ways and are just as unlikely, so I think they're OK to associate with each other, as they inform on each other.