7 ms·

All of Debian is available in Ubuntu. His objections appear to be: He doesn't like Ubuntu switching away from GNOME (presumably 2) by default. Except that Deb

by rlpb 14y ago

All of Debian is available in Ubuntu. His objections appear to be: He doesn't like Ubuntu switching away from GNOME (presumably 2) by default. Except that Debian have moved to GNOME 3 as well, which is why GNOME 2 is no longer available in Ubuntu. However, GNOME 3 is available in Ubuntu, so all he's really complaining about is the default. He doesn't like Ubuntu One, except that in Ubuntu it's merely something that's available. Your experience is exactly the same as Debian's if you don't use it. He doesn't like Ubuntu Software Centre. Except that you don't have to use it. apt-get and Synaptic are available and work just fine in Ubuntu. Software available from the Software Centre includes software not part of Ubuntu itself. Thus it doesn't violate any rules about Ubuntu itself. Debian is the same - third parties publish .deb files, and these don't have to comply with any Debian guidelines either. Yet Debian ships dpkg, which allows one to install them. He complains that he can't find the "Ubuntu Manifesto". I'm not sure of the exact document he's referring to, but the principles he's referring to and quotes can be found in one click from http://www.ubuntu.com http://www.ubuntu.com: http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/our-philosophy [edit: apologies, two clicks; "About Ubuntu" and then "Philosophy". Still, not exactly hidden] Then he complains about Unity again, except that he doesn't need to use it. GNOME 3 is available in Ubuntu, along with Xfce and LXDE, and you can get these by default if you use Xubuntu or Lubuntu install images. Then he complains about Ubuntu not focusing on privacy. Ubuntu introduced a single central place to manage your privacy settings in 12.04 (http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/privacy-controls-minor-ui-tweaks-land-in-ubuntu-12-04 http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/privacy-controls-minor-ui...). The privacy settings he's complaining about can be controlled from here. Again, all his complaint boils down to is what the default is. So, given that everything in Debian is available in Ubuntu, his article "Why I'm Leaving Ubuntu for Debian" can be summarised to one word: "principle". And perhaps you might want to add "defaults", except that Xubuntu and Lubuntu are available and provide defaults that eliminate all of his complaints. He's entitled to this view, of course, but the rest is FUD.

holri 14y ago
Trust is an important factor in choosing software and justifiable so. Ubuntu is no longer trustworthy for a lot of people.
- fiendsan 14y ago
  you hit the nail! they certainly dont act like people you can trust, their motto now is the same as apple! that they know best!
gejjaxxita 14y ago
The only point I slightly disagree with you on is privacy - here's my reasoning: Some defaults are visible, you see them and think "that's annoying, I'd better figure out a way to change it". Invisible defaults like privacy settings can be a lot more insidious, especially when (for better or worse) you expect your OS to treat your information very privately. Ubuntu seem to hide the privacy settings a little bit (even that link you sent, the privacy section isn't properly explained, just a vague reference to "files activity"). When I read your post about the central place to manage privacy settings I thought "wow really?" went there and changed them. Now on the other hand, you might argue this is all my fault for not taking the time to find out about my privacy settings...
- rlpb 14y ago
  > Invisible defaults like privacy settings can be a lot more insidious, especially when (for better or worse) you expect your OS to treat your information very privately. It is treated privately - it gets anonymized, so there's no privacy violation going on in the first place. There's a notice on the Dash that gives you the details, which is visible any time the search box is visible. And the box is a global search box. Do you expect privacy when you search in a Google search box also? > Now on the other hand, you might argue this is all my fault for not taking the time to find out about my privacy settings... No. My argument is that your privacy isn't violated with default settings in the first place. For the truly paranoid, you can still turn it off. But if you have that level of paranoia, you'd better audit all the source code on your system yourself. Do you know, for example, the details of how Chrome and Firefox anonymize URLs you visit for blacklist warning purposes?
  - peeters 14y ago
    > It is treated privately - it gets anonymized, so there's no privacy violation going on in the first place. Fat chance. Say I wanted to edit my resume, so I pop open Dash and search for "John Smith Resume". As long as they send up "John Smith Resume", they know a) my name, and b) that I'm looking for a new job. > Do you expect privacy when you search in a Google search box also? Apples and oranges. I have different expectations when searching local data than when searching public data. If something's indexed by Google, it's not secret obviously. If something's on my hard drive, it might be secret.
a3_nm 14y ago
> All of Debian is available in Ubuntu. Less is more. If everything he needs is available in Debian and he doesn't need the extra stuff provided by Ubuntu, then the default choice should be to use Debian.
- illbert 14y ago
  amen
- sigkill 14y ago
  Exactly. I'm not exactly a power user, but once I heard about Ubuntu being based on Debian, and the whole Linux being modular thing, along with learning how decoupled 'Linux' is from the GUI I quite literally made the switch to Debian cold-turkey. It doesn't have things I don't want, and Debian stable is relatively stable(understatement I know). For other purposes, I boot into Windows.
- shrughes 14y ago
  If you think that way, then you're reasoning about it wrong. Replace the words "doesn't need" with "probably won't need" and then you're asking the right question.
- bad_user 14y ago
  Last time I used Debian on an older Dell Inspiron, the wifi wasn't working and making it work meant I had to recompile the kernel. I also tried a Wifi stick and the same thing happened. The drivers weren't open-source and so I was out of luck on both Debian and OpenSuse. Out of frustration I installed Ubuntu and in Ubuntu my Wifi just worked out of the box. And that's when I switched. Of course, Ubuntu does make mistakes. Nouveau for instance is better for my old laptop's Geforce and yet Ubuntu still asks me to install the proprietary Nvidia drivers, drivers which have brought me nothing but frustration. But regardless, Ubuntu does have the best hardware support.
sink 14y ago
I wouldn't call it FUD. Ubuntu's terrible initial state as well as principles are completely valid reasons to drop allegiance to a free operating system. His reasoning and motivation are clear as day and it does not seem to me that he is trying to make any untrue, dubious, or over-reaching claims. I of course, am sympathetic to his view point. Without having ever heard of this guy, I had the exact same experience while returning to Ubuntu after some time. I really, really did not like how Ubuntu was initially packaged after a fresh install. Of course, I can make it into anything I want -- no use complaining! So I spent a few hours on this process, molding it into the operating system I wanted it to be. But then I started to think, why wasn't I doing this on Debian, or Arch, or FreeBSD? Since the moment I went to download Ubuntu, the web page was in my face to buy shit. I don't mind paying for software and I believe certain things have intrinsic value. But this approach to selling an operating system started needling a pit of dread into my stomach. If I'm already taking the time to undue everything I hate about the default Ubuntu install, and if I am already building up a healthy loathing at the way the operating system wants to sell my attention and information at every opportunity, how does it offer any value at all? Then the question occurred to me: What awful thing that I am going to have to undue is going to come out of the next release of Ubuntu? For me Ubuntu has solidly become the wrong choice. I don't mind spending the time to customize my computing environment. But if I need to do that I'm going to choose an OS that aligns better with my principles.
buster 14y ago
Exactly. I am using Ubuntu without Unity (Gnome3) or the Softwarecenter (aptitude) or Ubuntu One (wtf) for a while now. I must admit i haven't touched Debian as a Desktop Operating System for many years but i appreciate the Desktop Experience that is available with Ubuntu out of the box very very much. All _my_ stuff just works (hello binary blob drivers at Debian?), most stuff nowadays has those private package archives, yet i still don't need to run debian unstable to get relatively recent software. I know i have 6 months until a new version comes along, as opposed to many years of waiting. I admit i frequently reinstall Ubuntu (like every 1 or 2 releases), but that's no hazzle while keeping /home. I still get to test btrfs (changed back to ext4 one release afterwards), i still can screw around with the system a little bit.. nahh.. i don't see me going back to Debian on the Desktop.. Ubuntu may be only a redesign of if, but they make it working nicely on my laptop, the community is huge.. I must admit i wouldn't want to sit down an afternoon with Debian to figure out why my graphics is screwed or my Wifi isn't working, etc. Not anymore, it was fine 10 years ago, ,not 2013.. That said, i'd choose Debian as a server OS any time!
- SkyMarshal 14y ago
  Ditto everything. I also use gnome-do launcher and vim keybindings for everything, making my UI 95% keyboard driven and whatever the window manager is irrevelant. Unity? Gnome3? Mate? Etc. Couldn't care less, all the same to me. >private package archives Personal Package Archives [1] actually, but another good point. Between the Debian and Ubuntu repos, Ubuntu PPAs, and the awesome Debian tool Update Alternatives [2], I can install any piece of software, packaged or not, and even multiple versions simultaneously and change the active version with a single command line command [3]. I don't know if the Red Hat or Open Suse ecosystem has something like this, but I'd have a hard time switching to something else without an equivalent. [1]: https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA [2]: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-customizing.en.html http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-customizing.... [3]: https://github.com/byrongibson/scripts/tree/master/install/haskell https://github.com/byrongibson/scripts/tree/master/install/h...
- micahflee 14y ago
  When was the last time you tried Debian on your desktop? It's much better than it used to be. The only piece of hardware that didn't work out of the box for me was wifi, but I just had to enable the nonfree repo to install my wifi driver. Other than that, it's a lot like Ubuntu.
jff 14y ago
Ubuntu is, for me, Debian plus an unending parade of annoyances slapped on top. Mistyped a command? Let's wait 5 seconds for the prompt to come back because Ubuntu is going to search the repositories for packages that may match "friefox". Want to use a window manager or login manager besides the defaults? Hope you like pain--the last time I tried that on Ubuntu, only the default window manager was configured to shut off the program that draws the little "loading" dots on the screen as you boot, meaning my new FVWM desktop had glowing dots marching across the center over and over. Oh, sorry, my bad, if I wanted to use a window manager that isn't Unity, I should have downloaded an entirely different fucking ISO because apparently the way Debian has done things for years isn't good enough. But hey, at least the community is a cesspool of idiots cargo-culting their way to oblivion! Edit: Ooh, almost forgot: http://i.imgur.com/2sCYFvh.png http://i.imgur.com/2sCYFvh.png Ubuntu has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. Have you tried turning it off and on again?
- Nursie 14y ago
  search the repositories for packages that may match "friefox" After having used Xubuntu for a while I'm getting really tempted to just ln -s /bin/grep /bin/grerp :)
- epochwolf 14y ago
  Edit: Ooh, almost forgot: http://i.imgur.com/2sCYFvh.png http://i.imgur.com/2sCYFvh.png Ubuntu has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. Have you tried turning it off and on again? Would you prefer seeing a terminal login prompt after X crashed?
  - ziel 14y ago
    Um... I would? Then I can reattach to my tmux sessions, keep working, and restart at my leisure... or just restart x. But I haven't used ubuntu in a while, so perhaps this is just a case of I'm not in the right user group for the distro.
  - tedunangst 14y ago
    Obviously x didn't crash, since the window appears in x. I get the same thing every time I start Ubuntu. When I ask for details, it's like "oh, I don't actually know what crashed, but I think something did."
Zak 14y ago
People who like Gnome2 might want to try MATE, Mint's fork of Gnome2. People who liked Ubuntu when it was pretty much just Debian with a simpler installer and better defaults for a desktop might want to try Mint Debian Edition.
- hhw 14y ago
  Agreed, Mint mostly has all the benefits that Ubuntu has to offer over Debian, while removing the drawbacks introduced as of late. I still prefer straight Debian on servers, but out-of-the-box Mint makes for an excellent desktop or HTPC.
technomancy 14y ago
> All of Debian is available in Ubuntu Except two things: higher standards around packaging/stability and the DFSG. These are the things I value most in Debian, especially the way they stick to their guns and refuse to release until it's ready.
- gems 14y ago
  Again, can't you get these same packages on Ubuntu?
  - cbs 14y ago
    No. They're similar because Ubuntu forks (mostly) from debian's unstable branch. After that point they diverge on both points the parent poster mentions.
dbaupp 14y ago
In addition to the things others have pointed out, Debian offers two things over Ubuntu: you can choose to be very stable with a fairly strong guarantee that software won't crash, or be much closer to the cutting-edge with sooner updates and rolling releases.
juan_juarez 14y ago
It's just another "I'm leaving and taking my toys" rant. I don't really get why these things get so much traction here.
jxdxbx 14y ago
So you're a Linux user who doesn't think "principle" is important? :)

by rlpb 14y ago

holri 14y ago

Trust is an important factor in choosing software and justifiable so. Ubuntu is no longer trustworthy for a lot of people.

fiendsan 14y ago
you hit the nail! they certainly dont act like people you can trust, their motto now is the same as apple! that they know best!

gejjaxxita 14y ago

The only point I slightly disagree with you on is privacy - here's my reasoning: Some defaults are visible, you see them and think "that's annoying, I'd better figure out a way to change it". Invisible defaults like privacy settings can be a lot more insidious, especially when (for better or worse) you expect your OS to treat your information very privately. Ubuntu seem to hide the privacy settings a little bit (even that link you sent, the privacy section isn't properly explained, just a vague reference to "files activity"). When I read your post about the central place to manage privacy settings I thought "wow really?" went there and changed them. Now on the other hand, you might argue this is all my fault for not taking the time to find out about my privacy settings...

rlpb 14y ago
> Invisible defaults like privacy settings can be a lot more insidious, especially when (for better or worse) you expect your OS to treat your information very privately. It is treated privately - it gets anonymized, so there's no privacy violation going on in the first place. There's a notice on the Dash that gives you the details, which is visible any time the search box is visible. And the box is a global search box. Do you expect privacy when you search in a Google search box also? > Now on the other hand, you might argue this is all my fault for not taking the time to find out about my privacy settings... No. My argument is that your privacy isn't violated with default settings in the first place. For the truly paranoid, you can still turn it off. But if you have that level of paranoia, you'd better audit all the source code on your system yourself. Do you know, for example, the details of how Chrome and Firefox anonymize URLs you visit for blacklist warning purposes?
- peeters 14y ago
  > It is treated privately - it gets anonymized, so there's no privacy violation going on in the first place. Fat chance. Say I wanted to edit my resume, so I pop open Dash and search for "John Smith Resume". As long as they send up "John Smith Resume", they know a) my name, and b) that I'm looking for a new job. > Do you expect privacy when you search in a Google search box also? Apples and oranges. I have different expectations when searching local data than when searching public data. If something's indexed by Google, it's not secret obviously. If something's on my hard drive, it might be secret.

a3_nm 14y ago

> All of Debian is available in Ubuntu. Less is more. If everything he needs is available in Debian and he doesn't need the extra stuff provided by Ubuntu, then the default choice should be to use Debian.

illbert 14y ago
amen
sigkill 14y ago
Exactly. I'm not exactly a power user, but once I heard about Ubuntu being based on Debian, and the whole Linux being modular thing, along with learning how decoupled 'Linux' is from the GUI I quite literally made the switch to Debian cold-turkey. It doesn't have things I don't want, and Debian stable is relatively stable(understatement I know). For other purposes, I boot into Windows.
shrughes 14y ago
If you think that way, then you're reasoning about it wrong. Replace the words "doesn't need" with "probably won't need" and then you're asking the right question.
bad_user 14y ago
Last time I used Debian on an older Dell Inspiron, the wifi wasn't working and making it work meant I had to recompile the kernel. I also tried a Wifi stick and the same thing happened. The drivers weren't open-source and so I was out of luck on both Debian and OpenSuse. Out of frustration I installed Ubuntu and in Ubuntu my Wifi just worked out of the box. And that's when I switched. Of course, Ubuntu does make mistakes. Nouveau for instance is better for my old laptop's Geforce and yet Ubuntu still asks me to install the proprietary Nvidia drivers, drivers which have brought me nothing but frustration. But regardless, Ubuntu does have the best hardware support.

sink 14y ago

I wouldn't call it FUD. Ubuntu's terrible initial state as well as principles are completely valid reasons to drop allegiance to a free operating system. His reasoning and motivation are clear as day and it does not seem to me that he is trying to make any untrue, dubious, or over-reaching claims. I of course, am sympathetic to his view point. Without having ever heard of this guy, I had the exact same experience while returning to Ubuntu after some time. I really, really did not like how Ubuntu was initially packaged after a fresh install. Of course, I can make it into anything I want -- no use complaining! So I spent a few hours on this process, molding it into the operating system I wanted it to be. But then I started to think, why wasn't I doing this on Debian, or Arch, or FreeBSD? Since the moment I went to download Ubuntu, the web page was in my face to buy shit. I don't mind paying for software and I believe certain things have intrinsic value. But this approach to selling an operating system started needling a pit of dread into my stomach. If I'm already taking the time to undue everything I hate about the default Ubuntu install, and if I am already building up a healthy loathing at the way the operating system wants to sell my attention and information at every opportunity, how does it offer any value at all? Then the question occurred to me: What awful thing that I am going to have to undue is going to come out of the next release of Ubuntu? For me Ubuntu has solidly become the wrong choice. I don't mind spending the time to customize my computing environment. But if I need to do that I'm going to choose an OS that aligns better with my principles.

buster 14y ago

Exactly. I am using Ubuntu without Unity (Gnome3) or the Softwarecenter (aptitude) or Ubuntu One (wtf) for a while now. I must admit i haven't touched Debian as a Desktop Operating System for many years but i appreciate the Desktop Experience that is available with Ubuntu out of the box very very much. All _my_ stuff just works (hello binary blob drivers at Debian?), most stuff nowadays has those private package archives, yet i still don't need to run debian unstable to get relatively recent software. I know i have 6 months until a new version comes along, as opposed to many years of waiting. I admit i frequently reinstall Ubuntu (like every 1 or 2 releases), but that's no hazzle while keeping /home. I still get to test btrfs (changed back to ext4 one release afterwards), i still can screw around with the system a little bit.. nahh.. i don't see me going back to Debian on the Desktop.. Ubuntu may be only a redesign of if, but they make it working nicely on my laptop, the community is huge.. I must admit i wouldn't want to sit down an afternoon with Debian to figure out why my graphics is screwed or my Wifi isn't working, etc. Not anymore, it was fine 10 years ago, ,not 2013.. That said, i'd choose Debian as a server OS any time!

SkyMarshal 14y ago
Ditto everything. I also use gnome-do launcher and vim keybindings for everything, making my UI 95% keyboard driven and whatever the window manager is irrevelant. Unity? Gnome3? Mate? Etc. Couldn't care less, all the same to me. >private package archives Personal Package Archives [1] actually, but another good point. Between the Debian and Ubuntu repos, Ubuntu PPAs, and the awesome Debian tool Update Alternatives [2], I can install any piece of software, packaged or not, and even multiple versions simultaneously and change the active version with a single command line command [3]. I don't know if the Red Hat or Open Suse ecosystem has something like this, but I'd have a hard time switching to something else without an equivalent. [1]: https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA [2]: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-customizing.en.html http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-customizing.... [3]: https://github.com/byrongibson/scripts/tree/master/install/haskell https://github.com/byrongibson/scripts/tree/master/install/h...
micahflee 14y ago
When was the last time you tried Debian on your desktop? It's much better than it used to be. The only piece of hardware that didn't work out of the box for me was wifi, but I just had to enable the nonfree repo to install my wifi driver. Other than that, it's a lot like Ubuntu.

jff 14y ago

Ubuntu is, for me, Debian plus an unending parade of annoyances slapped on top. Mistyped a command? Let's wait 5 seconds for the prompt to come back because Ubuntu is going to search the repositories for packages that may match "friefox". Want to use a window manager or login manager besides the defaults? Hope you like pain--the last time I tried that on Ubuntu, only the default window manager was configured to shut off the program that draws the little "loading" dots on the screen as you boot, meaning my new FVWM desktop had glowing dots marching across the center over and over. Oh, sorry, my bad, if I wanted to use a window manager that isn't Unity, I should have downloaded an entirely different fucking ISO because apparently the way Debian has done things for years isn't good enough. But hey, at least the community is a cesspool of idiots cargo-culting their way to oblivion! Edit: Ooh, almost forgot: http://i.imgur.com/2sCYFvh.png http://i.imgur.com/2sCYFvh.png Ubuntu has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. Have you tried turning it off and on again?

Nursie 14y ago
search the repositories for packages that may match "friefox" After having used Xubuntu for a while I'm getting really tempted to just ln -s /bin/grep /bin/grerp :)
epochwolf 14y ago
Edit: Ooh, almost forgot: http://i.imgur.com/2sCYFvh.png http://i.imgur.com/2sCYFvh.png Ubuntu has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. Have you tried turning it off and on again? Would you prefer seeing a terminal login prompt after X crashed?
- ziel 14y ago
  Um... I would? Then I can reattach to my tmux sessions, keep working, and restart at my leisure... or just restart x. But I haven't used ubuntu in a while, so perhaps this is just a case of I'm not in the right user group for the distro.
- tedunangst 14y ago
  Obviously x didn't crash, since the window appears in x. I get the same thing every time I start Ubuntu. When I ask for details, it's like "oh, I don't actually know what crashed, but I think something did."

Zak 14y ago

People who like Gnome2 might want to try MATE, Mint's fork of Gnome2. People who liked Ubuntu when it was pretty much just Debian with a simpler installer and better defaults for a desktop might want to try Mint Debian Edition.

hhw 14y ago
Agreed, Mint mostly has all the benefits that Ubuntu has to offer over Debian, while removing the drawbacks introduced as of late. I still prefer straight Debian on servers, but out-of-the-box Mint makes for an excellent desktop or HTPC.

technomancy 14y ago

> All of Debian is available in Ubuntu Except two things: higher standards around packaging/stability and the DFSG. These are the things I value most in Debian, especially the way they stick to their guns and refuse to release until it's ready.

gems 14y ago
Again, can't you get these same packages on Ubuntu?
- cbs 14y ago
  No. They're similar because Ubuntu forks (mostly) from debian's unstable branch. After that point they diverge on both points the parent poster mentions.

dbaupp 14y ago

In addition to the things others have pointed out, Debian offers two things over Ubuntu: you can choose to be very stable with a fairly strong guarantee that software won't crash, or be much closer to the cutting-edge with sooner updates and rolling releases.

juan_juarez 14y ago

It's just another "I'm leaving and taking my toys" rant. I don't really get why these things get so much traction here.

jxdxbx 14y ago

So you're a Linux user who doesn't think "principle" is important? :)