5 ms·

Reddit gay gamers to fight Gaymer trademark

37 points by jeffreyfox 14y ago

ck2 14y ago
I don't know whose side to take. Someone educate me? Bandaid is trademarked and people use it all the time, xerox too. Was the reddit group formed before 2007 ? I noticed the other day my pillow has a trademark on the word "Jumbo". Where are the people getting upset about that? Oh I see now from the EFF release: As today's petition notes, the term "gaymer" had been in widespread use for years before Vizzini applied for a trademark. In fact, there's even a GaymerCon conference.
- gabemart 14y ago
  > Was the reddit group formed before 2007 ? In early 2011, /r/gaymers had a mere 600 subscribers [1] so it was likely formed some time in 2010. Custom subreddits were added in 2008 [2] which is thus the earliest possible point that /r/gaymers could have been founded. However, there is certainly what I as a lay-person would call prior art. There's a Yahoo! group for "gaymers" founded in 2000 [3]. [1] http://web.archive.org/web/20110226103548/http://www.reddit.com/r/gaymers [2] http://blog.reddit.com/2008/01/new-features.html [3] http://games.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/gaymers/
  - ck2 14y ago
    Ah well then no trademark should be allowed then. That's obviously where he got the domain name idea then and did a trademark the following year. Remember the days when you could find a word that wasn't registered as a domain? Even the fact he went for the .org leads me to believe the .com had to be in use already. Yup, registered and paid parking since 2002. Interesting he didn't bother to try to use the trademark to grab the .com
    - RyanGWU82 14y ago
      Prior art is irrelevant for trademarks -- a trademark doesn't have to be unique for you to use it. There was an item called a "macintosh" before the name Macintosh was trademarked. The word "dropbox" had been used in file sharing software long before the YC startup existed. Even the creator of gaymer.org doesn't claim to have invented the word "gaymer." You can claim a trademark as long as no one else has already claimed the same name in the same context. Once you have established the trademark, you can prevent others from using that name, even if they have been using it for a long time. Note that the "same context" is why there's unlikely to be a conflict with Gaymers Cider. In particular, the gaymer.org trademark only applies to social networks. (IANAL, so I may have some details wrong here.)
      - brazzy 14y ago
        > Once you have established the trademark, you can prevent others from using that name, even if they have been using it for a long time. You can prevent others from using it in the field the trademark was registered for to identify a product or service not approved by the trademark holder. Most statements of trademark law being ridiculous for allowing people to "own" common words hinge on ignorance of these details.
  - deadairspace 14y ago
    It says in the sidebar "a community for 2 years".
- SEMW 14y ago
  If you don't know whose side to take in a trademark dispute, one heuristic is: default to whichever side is trying to get the trademark invalidated. Because getting a trademark invalidated doesn't stop you using it -- it just stops you from using the law to stop other using it. BTW, the key point in trademarks isn't whether there's prior use, technically. It's whether there's customary use, and (independently) whether the mark is purely descriptive. Widespread prior use is just evidence of those. (N.B. that's in the EU - I assume US law is similar, but don't actually know). > I noticed the other day my pillow has a trademark on the word "Jumbo". Where are the people getting upset about that? People are getting upset of this because they identify as gaymers - it's something they are. The word gets tied up with the identity. So naturally they get upset if someone tries to (from their POV) take the word away from them.
h2s 14y ago
Smells like a shitstorm brewing. I'd advise him to walk away from this one quietly. There's a real risk of invoking the wrath of Reddit's Internet Hate Machine on this issue. All it'll take is a few links to hit the front page and this could very suddenly become a lot more hassle than a trademark is worth.
- biot 14y ago
  Or license it to them for $1. The subreddit can then put a (R) sign next to it and say "Used under license from Chris Vizzini / gaymer.org". With some ingenuity, Vizzini could work with them to turn it into a community brand and make gaymer.org the central hub. Trying to fight the community rather than work with it is inconceivable!
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - uvdiv 14y ago
    Reddit will not react well to demands for free advertising.
  - tech-no-logical 14y ago
    as someone who follows /r/gaymers I can say that this will _never_ be accepted by that community. the cease-and-desist mr. vizzini sent was seen as a sort of declaration of war, and mr. vizzini's posts on reddit only added to that feeling.
    - biot 14y ago
      A classic blunder. Never get involved in a trademark war with Reddit.
  - fitzpasd 14y ago
    I believe they had an agreement similar to this already (without the charge). "...that the /gaymer sub-reddit had use of the word in exchange for a link to my site. Apparently that wasn’t enough for them because yesterday they filed a petition to have the trademark taken away." - Extract from a post by the trademarks owner. Full post - http://www.gaymer.org/index.html/_/site-news/help-save-gaymer-erase-the-hate-r72 http://www.gaymer.org/index.html/_/site-news/help-save-gayme...
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
eclipticplane 14y ago
Thanks to the EFF and everyone involved in this. Reddit itself is being very helpful in this, too.
Nursie 14y ago
Hmmm... is the trademark domain and/or country specific? Because there's a cider company in the UK that has a claim to that name going back well over 150 years.
- antihero 14y ago
  It's a different "category". Like Apple (hardware) and Apple (records), it was okay for them to share the name until Apple (hardware) moved into the music business.
fitzpasd 14y ago
I suggest people also read the trademark holders recent post on gaymer.org http://www.gaymer.org/index.html/_/site-news/help-save-gaymer-erase-the-hate-r72 http://www.gaymer.org/index.html/_/site-news/help-save-gayme...
- tech-no-logical 14y ago
  ... wherein mr. vizzini is the hero who personally wrested the term 'gaymer' from the evil claws of the bigoted internet. there's enogugh references from before 2003 to prove that this is a load of bs.
timdorr 14y ago
> Vizzini went on to add, "I had an idea 10 years ago, made it happen, put the money and hours into it, the idea picked up steam and I trademarked it. That's how the system works." Holy shit. You're building a community, not a product. The two operate very differently and you're going to get nowhere if you treat it like a commodity. He should do the smart thing and license the trademark to /r/gaymers.
sergiotapia 14y ago
I side with Vizzini on this one. He trademarked it plain and simple and shouldn't be stripped of his trademark. I hope the Reddit community members lose this one. It's not like the guy demanded they stop using the term, he even let them use his trademark on their subreddit. But for some people that's just not enough. Best wishes to Vizzini. --- > "The issue I have is when the Gaymer name is used. It takes 10 years of my work, money, blood, sweat and tears and directs it to another website. Trust me, there were many tears. When you have no idea about PHP/SQL and you have to figure out how to fix a database, you will end up in tears." Yeah, I'd be pissed if some random internet mob wanted to strip me of something I built. ---
- tech-no-logical 14y ago
  he initially demanded the subreddit change its name, which is technically hard to do, or so people from reddit said, which would mean the subreddit was to be deleted. he was never to be 'stripped' of something he built, the site and the subreddit have existed side by side for years. even if he loses his trademark, his site will continue to exist, and he's free to try and monetize that to his heart's content. also, the sob-story about php and mysql sounds a bit off since he uses Invision Powerboard to host the whole site.
- newishuser 14y ago
  A trademark is a legal monopoly on a name. The issue isn't whether he worked hard or not, it's whether he deserves to have a legal monopoly on the use of the word "Gaymer". As much as you argue "he trademarked it plain and simple" these people have the right to say "we don't think there should be a legal monopoly on that word, plain and simple." People should really think twice about what they try to remove from the public domain. It's a bit selfish and arrogant to think you can own words like "Gaymer".
  - pdeuchler 14y ago
    Completely agreed. It was incredibly selfish of Bill Gates to trademark "Windows", just like it was arrogant for Steve Jobs to trademark "Apple". I eat apples all the time! I look out windows all the time! These trademarks offend me. These words should not be trademarked. Plain and simple.

37 points by jeffreyfox 14y ago

ck2 14y ago

I don't know whose side to take. Someone educate me? Bandaid is trademarked and people use it all the time, xerox too. Was the reddit group formed before 2007 ? I noticed the other day my pillow has a trademark on the word "Jumbo". Where are the people getting upset about that? Oh I see now from the EFF release: As today's petition notes, the term "gaymer" had been in widespread use for years before Vizzini applied for a trademark. In fact, there's even a GaymerCon conference.

gabemart 14y ago
> Was the reddit group formed before 2007 ? In early 2011, /r/gaymers had a mere 600 subscribers [1] so it was likely formed some time in 2010. Custom subreddits were added in 2008 [2] which is thus the earliest possible point that /r/gaymers could have been founded. However, there is certainly what I as a lay-person would call prior art. There's a Yahoo! group for "gaymers" founded in 2000 [3]. [1] http://web.archive.org/web/20110226103548/http://www.reddit.com/r/gaymers [2] http://blog.reddit.com/2008/01/new-features.html [3] http://games.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/gaymers/
- ck2 14y ago
  Ah well then no trademark should be allowed then. That's obviously where he got the domain name idea then and did a trademark the following year. Remember the days when you could find a word that wasn't registered as a domain? Even the fact he went for the .org leads me to believe the .com had to be in use already. Yup, registered and paid parking since 2002. Interesting he didn't bother to try to use the trademark to grab the .com
  - RyanGWU82 14y ago
    Prior art is irrelevant for trademarks -- a trademark doesn't have to be unique for you to use it. There was an item called a "macintosh" before the name Macintosh was trademarked. The word "dropbox" had been used in file sharing software long before the YC startup existed. Even the creator of gaymer.org doesn't claim to have invented the word "gaymer." You can claim a trademark as long as no one else has already claimed the same name in the same context. Once you have established the trademark, you can prevent others from using that name, even if they have been using it for a long time. Note that the "same context" is why there's unlikely to be a conflict with Gaymers Cider. In particular, the gaymer.org trademark only applies to social networks. (IANAL, so I may have some details wrong here.)
    - brazzy 14y ago
      > Once you have established the trademark, you can prevent others from using that name, even if they have been using it for a long time. You can prevent others from using it in the field the trademark was registered for to identify a product or service not approved by the trademark holder. Most statements of trademark law being ridiculous for allowing people to "own" common words hinge on ignorance of these details.
- deadairspace 14y ago
  It says in the sidebar "a community for 2 years".
SEMW 14y ago
If you don't know whose side to take in a trademark dispute, one heuristic is: default to whichever side is trying to get the trademark invalidated. Because getting a trademark invalidated doesn't stop you using it -- it just stops you from using the law to stop other using it. BTW, the key point in trademarks isn't whether there's prior use, technically. It's whether there's customary use, and (independently) whether the mark is purely descriptive. Widespread prior use is just evidence of those. (N.B. that's in the EU - I assume US law is similar, but don't actually know). > I noticed the other day my pillow has a trademark on the word "Jumbo". Where are the people getting upset about that? People are getting upset of this because they identify as gaymers - it's something they are. The word gets tied up with the identity. So naturally they get upset if someone tries to (from their POV) take the word away from them.

h2s 14y ago

Smells like a shitstorm brewing. I'd advise him to walk away from this one quietly. There's a real risk of invoking the wrath of Reddit's Internet Hate Machine on this issue. All it'll take is a few links to hit the front page and this could very suddenly become a lot more hassle than a trademark is worth.

biot 14y ago
Or license it to them for $1. The subreddit can then put a (R) sign next to it and say "Used under license from Chris Vizzini / gaymer.org". With some ingenuity, Vizzini could work with them to turn it into a community brand and make gaymer.org the central hub. Trying to fight the community rather than work with it is inconceivable!
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- uvdiv 14y ago
  Reddit will not react well to demands for free advertising.
- tech-no-logical 14y ago
  as someone who follows /r/gaymers I can say that this will _never_ be accepted by that community. the cease-and-desist mr. vizzini sent was seen as a sort of declaration of war, and mr. vizzini's posts on reddit only added to that feeling.
  - biot 14y ago
    A classic blunder. Never get involved in a trademark war with Reddit.
- fitzpasd 14y ago
  I believe they had an agreement similar to this already (without the charge). "...that the /gaymer sub-reddit had use of the word in exchange for a link to my site. Apparently that wasn’t enough for them because yesterday they filed a petition to have the trademark taken away." - Extract from a post by the trademarks owner. Full post - http://www.gaymer.org/index.html/_/site-news/help-save-gaymer-erase-the-hate-r72 http://www.gaymer.org/index.html/_/site-news/help-save-gayme...

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

eclipticplane 14y ago

Thanks to the EFF and everyone involved in this. Reddit itself is being very helpful in this, too.

Nursie 14y ago

Hmmm... is the trademark domain and/or country specific? Because there's a cider company in the UK that has a claim to that name going back well over 150 years.

antihero 14y ago
It's a different "category". Like Apple (hardware) and Apple (records), it was okay for them to share the name until Apple (hardware) moved into the music business.

fitzpasd 14y ago

I suggest people also read the trademark holders recent post on gaymer.org http://www.gaymer.org/index.html/_/site-news/help-save-gaymer-erase-the-hate-r72 http://www.gaymer.org/index.html/_/site-news/help-save-gayme...

tech-no-logical 14y ago
... wherein mr. vizzini is the hero who personally wrested the term 'gaymer' from the evil claws of the bigoted internet. there's enogugh references from before 2003 to prove that this is a load of bs.

timdorr 14y ago

> Vizzini went on to add, "I had an idea 10 years ago, made it happen, put the money and hours into it, the idea picked up steam and I trademarked it. That's how the system works." Holy shit. You're building a community, not a product. The two operate very differently and you're going to get nowhere if you treat it like a commodity. He should do the smart thing and license the trademark to /r/gaymers.

sergiotapia 14y ago

I side with Vizzini on this one. He trademarked it plain and simple and shouldn't be stripped of his trademark. I hope the Reddit community members lose this one. It's not like the guy demanded they stop using the term, he even let them use his trademark on their subreddit. But for some people that's just not enough. Best wishes to Vizzini. --- > "The issue I have is when the Gaymer name is used. It takes 10 years of my work, money, blood, sweat and tears and directs it to another website. Trust me, there were many tears. When you have no idea about PHP/SQL and you have to figure out how to fix a database, you will end up in tears." Yeah, I'd be pissed if some random internet mob wanted to strip me of something I built. ---

tech-no-logical 14y ago
he initially demanded the subreddit change its name, which is technically hard to do, or so people from reddit said, which would mean the subreddit was to be deleted. he was never to be 'stripped' of something he built, the site and the subreddit have existed side by side for years. even if he loses his trademark, his site will continue to exist, and he's free to try and monetize that to his heart's content. also, the sob-story about php and mysql sounds a bit off since he uses Invision Powerboard to host the whole site.
newishuser 14y ago
A trademark is a legal monopoly on a name. The issue isn't whether he worked hard or not, it's whether he deserves to have a legal monopoly on the use of the word "Gaymer". As much as you argue "he trademarked it plain and simple" these people have the right to say "we don't think there should be a legal monopoly on that word, plain and simple." People should really think twice about what they try to remove from the public domain. It's a bit selfish and arrogant to think you can own words like "Gaymer".
- pdeuchler 14y ago
  Completely agreed. It was incredibly selfish of Bill Gates to trademark "Windows", just like it was arrogant for Steve Jobs to trademark "Apple". I eat apples all the time! I look out windows all the time! These trademarks offend me. These words should not be trademarked. Plain and simple.