3 ms·

Who cares? If you don't want to pay an economic penalty speak standard English.

by tsotha 14y ago

orangethirty 14y ago
Define standard English.
- tsotha 14y ago
  The kind of English you hear from newscasters. No slang, correct grammar, and full enunciation.
  - Snoptic 14y ago
    Which newscasters? They don't all sound the same to me. And where can I buy that book of "correct" grammar?
    - tsotha 14y ago
      Very few professional newscasters use their normal speech patterns on the air. They deliberately train out regional dialects. As for grammar, everybody who's been to high school in the US has had a grammar book that teaches correct (not "correct") grammar. There really is a right way and a wrong way.
      - Dylan16807 14y ago
        Yes. There are definitely choices in word use but grammar is straightforward.
  - InclinedPlane 14y ago
    Just not the black newscasters, mind.
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      What are you talking about? Black newscasters are perfectly good at diction.
    - tsotha 14y ago
      I don't see any indication this is true.
- wwweston 14y ago
  English as I speak it, of course.
- nerdfiles 14y ago
  Orwell defined it in http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/politics-and-the-english-language http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/politics-and-the-e...
saosebastiao 14y ago
You should really put a comma between "penalty" and "speak". Oh, and there is no standard English.
- tsotha 14y ago
  >You should really put a comma between "penalty" and "speak". It's optional. >Oh, and there is no standard English. This is wrong. There absolutely is a standard American English. Jesus Christ, no wonder young people can't get jobs. They don't teach English in school any more.
  - saosebastiao 14y ago
    > It's optional. Of course it is optional. Use of the word "ain't" is sanctioned by most English dictionaries, and is thus optional as well. Omitting the comma undermines your point. > This is wrong. There absolutely is a standard American English. Jesus Christ, no wonder young people can't get jobs. They don't teach English in school any more. You said Standard English, not Standard American English. Regardless, Standard American English is an accent. It is not a grammar specification, nor a vocabulary. As such, its use does not preclude slang, and it doesn't preclude cultural modification of grammar. You might want to stop before you embarrass yourself further.
    - tsotha 14y ago
      >Use of the word "ain't" is sanctioned by most English dictionaries, and is thus optional as well. This is the dumbest thing you've said yet, and that's jumping a pretty high bar. >You might want to stop before you embarrass yourself further. I was just going to suggest this to you. You're talking in circles. You know what? You're right. There's no reason to try to persuade people to speak standard English. After all, the world needs ditch diggers too.
      - saosebastiao 14y ago
        Funny, but entirely incorrect. The only reason why outsourced call centers are taught Standard American English is because ditch diggers need to be able to understand them. In most well paid professional contexts, English speakers are expected to be able to understand other English accents, including the most common accents from England, Ireland, Scotland, India, New Zealand, and Australia. They are also expected to be able to communicate with people who still have major shortcomings in their English, due to the fact that English may not be a native language. Standard American English is nothing more than regionally distinct lowest common denominator of intelligibility. It's use does not signify intelligence nor education any more than other accents.
grahamsletter 14y ago
Have you ever tried to learn another language as an adult? If you do, you're going to speak it in an accent that is going to be extremely hard/impossible to get rid of. That is the type of thing the article is talking about. Once your speech patterns are set (by age 10 or so), barring a concerted effort, that's the way you're going to talk for the rest of your life. Note: I'm not talking about the (legitimate) lexical and grammatical differences between Standard American and AAVE, I mean the way speech sounds. The accent. The way that you can tell someone born and raised in Texas from someone from New Jersey just by listening to them. The point of the article is that if you happen to have grown up in an environment that leads you to sound identifiably Black, then all else equal, you will have lower wages. You can say that you don't care; that's fine. You're allowed to be callous. But you can't imply that the person who sounds Black has only to change their (ingrained) accent to solve their problem. That takes the blame from society and places it on the victim, thus perpetuating the evil. You're not allowed to be evil.
- tsotha 14y ago
  >I'm not talking about the (legitimate) lexical and grammatical differences between Standard American and AAVE, I mean the way speech sounds. But the article doesn't distinguish between accent and things like grammar and word choice. I agree an accent is just an indicator of your origins, but poor grammar and slang are a legitimate indicator of a substandard education. That's what I meant about speaking standard English. Employers aren't charities - they have a legitimate interest in hiring people who sound professional. The study would have been a whole lot more useful if it made some attempt to separate accent from grammar and slang. If you read the article (you did read the article, right?) you'll see they mention (in passing, of course, because it's the NYT and coastal liberals don't care) people who "sound southern" have the same pay disparities. Which makes me wonder how well controlled the underlying study is, frankly. This may all just be a statistical artifact of the fact that bankers and stockbrokers in NYC make a lot of money compared to everyone else.

Who cares? If you don't want to pay an economic penalty speak standard English.

by tsotha 14y ago

Who cares? If you don't want to pay an economic penalty speak standard English.

orangethirty 14y ago

Define standard English.

tsotha 14y ago
The kind of English you hear from newscasters. No slang, correct grammar, and full enunciation.
- Snoptic 14y ago
  Which newscasters? They don't all sound the same to me. And where can I buy that book of "correct" grammar?
  - tsotha 14y ago
    Very few professional newscasters use their normal speech patterns on the air. They deliberately train out regional dialects. As for grammar, everybody who's been to high school in the US has had a grammar book that teaches correct (not "correct") grammar. There really is a right way and a wrong way.
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      Yes. There are definitely choices in word use but grammar is straightforward.
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  Just not the black newscasters, mind.
  - Dylan16807 14y ago
    What are you talking about? Black newscasters are perfectly good at diction.
  - tsotha 14y ago
    I don't see any indication this is true.
wwweston 14y ago
English as I speak it, of course.
nerdfiles 14y ago
Orwell defined it in http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/politics-and-the-english-language http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/politics-and-the-e...

saosebastiao 14y ago

You should really put a comma between "penalty" and "speak". Oh, and there is no standard English.

tsotha 14y ago
>You should really put a comma between "penalty" and "speak". It's optional. >Oh, and there is no standard English. This is wrong. There absolutely is a standard American English. Jesus Christ, no wonder young people can't get jobs. They don't teach English in school any more.
- saosebastiao 14y ago
  > It's optional. Of course it is optional. Use of the word "ain't" is sanctioned by most English dictionaries, and is thus optional as well. Omitting the comma undermines your point. > This is wrong. There absolutely is a standard American English. Jesus Christ, no wonder young people can't get jobs. They don't teach English in school any more. You said Standard English, not Standard American English. Regardless, Standard American English is an accent. It is not a grammar specification, nor a vocabulary. As such, its use does not preclude slang, and it doesn't preclude cultural modification of grammar. You might want to stop before you embarrass yourself further.
  - tsotha 14y ago
    >Use of the word "ain't" is sanctioned by most English dictionaries, and is thus optional as well. This is the dumbest thing you've said yet, and that's jumping a pretty high bar. >You might want to stop before you embarrass yourself further. I was just going to suggest this to you. You're talking in circles. You know what? You're right. There's no reason to try to persuade people to speak standard English. After all, the world needs ditch diggers too.
    - saosebastiao 14y ago
      Funny, but entirely incorrect. The only reason why outsourced call centers are taught Standard American English is because ditch diggers need to be able to understand them. In most well paid professional contexts, English speakers are expected to be able to understand other English accents, including the most common accents from England, Ireland, Scotland, India, New Zealand, and Australia. They are also expected to be able to communicate with people who still have major shortcomings in their English, due to the fact that English may not be a native language. Standard American English is nothing more than regionally distinct lowest common denominator of intelligibility. It's use does not signify intelligence nor education any more than other accents.

grahamsletter 14y ago

Have you ever tried to learn another language as an adult? If you do, you're going to speak it in an accent that is going to be extremely hard/impossible to get rid of. That is the type of thing the article is talking about. Once your speech patterns are set (by age 10 or so), barring a concerted effort, that's the way you're going to talk for the rest of your life. Note: I'm not talking about the (legitimate) lexical and grammatical differences between Standard American and AAVE, I mean the way speech sounds. The accent. The way that you can tell someone born and raised in Texas from someone from New Jersey just by listening to them. The point of the article is that if you happen to have grown up in an environment that leads you to sound identifiably Black, then all else equal, you will have lower wages. You can say that you don't care; that's fine. You're allowed to be callous. But you can't imply that the person who sounds Black has only to change their (ingrained) accent to solve their problem. That takes the blame from society and places it on the victim, thus perpetuating the evil. You're not allowed to be evil.

tsotha 14y ago
>I'm not talking about the (legitimate) lexical and grammatical differences between Standard American and AAVE, I mean the way speech sounds. But the article doesn't distinguish between accent and things like grammar and word choice. I agree an accent is just an indicator of your origins, but poor grammar and slang are a legitimate indicator of a substandard education. That's what I meant about speaking standard English. Employers aren't charities - they have a legitimate interest in hiring people who sound professional. The study would have been a whole lot more useful if it made some attempt to separate accent from grammar and slang. If you read the article (you did read the article, right?) you'll see they mention (in passing, of course, because it's the NYT and coastal liberals don't care) people who "sound southern" have the same pay disparities. Which makes me wonder how well controlled the underlying study is, frankly. This may all just be a statistical artifact of the fact that bankers and stockbrokers in NYC make a lot of money compared to everyone else.