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I was honestly expecting a different sort of rant from Mark Cuban. It's nice to see someone taking on the business of college, without dismissing the need for

by timr 14y ago

I was honestly expecting a different sort of rant from Mark Cuban. It's nice to see someone taking on the business of college, without dismissing the need for a college education. Bravo to someone who gets it. That said, while I agree with his premise, I'll admit to being a little sad about the consequences: people in power rarely talk about it, but the kids who go to the "name schools" have a huge career advantage over the kids who go to Podunk University. I should know -- I went to a tiny school, and somehow managed to end up in silicon valley, where the leaders and power brokers are (wait for it)...almost exclusively graduates of the Ivy League. And this isn't the only industry where that's true. It's disheartening. A hard-working, smart graduate from Oklahoma State with a degree in computer science degree will be at a substantial disadvantage when it comes to getting the best jobs -- the big boys (Google, Facebook, etc.) might send a recruiter to the campus career fair once a year, but they aren't hosting hackathons, sponsoring scholarships, or setting up permanent shop in the career center, like they'll do for Stanford or Berkeley or MIT. And when it comes time to reach for the management fast-track, those Ivy contacts go a long way. So, who wins when the ability to pay for college out-of-pocket determines the economic winners and losers? Not the poor. We're rapidly heading to a country with a rigid and unyielding class structure, thanks to the brutal realities of unfettered market capitalism.

hkmurakami 14y ago
Most of the "elite" schools offer fairly generous need based aid. Yes, there are problems like some middle class families getting caught in the gaps -- but the financial divide is a bigger problem in the younger years of a student, all the way from elementary school to high school, where the family's financial means makes a massive difference in the extra attention, extracurricular pursuits, and the quality of instruction at the school. I can only speak for Silicon Valley where I grew up, but there's a strong correlation between a school's quality and the income level of the school district. Your family's financial status impacts where you live, which impacts the quality of your education, which in turn deeply affects your odds of being accepted to an "elite" school in the first place.
- timr 14y ago
  "Most of the "elite" schools offer fairly generous need based aid. Yes, there are problems like some middle class families getting caught in the gaps." That's a huge problem. The "need" calculation takes into account things like your parents' savings for retirement, as if they're going to cash out their 401k to put you through school. The effect is to lock out the vast majority of students whose parents were responsible, but not rich. "but there's a strong correlation between a school's quality and the income level of the school district." Absolutely. That's probably the biggest source of institutionalized classism (and racism) in our society.
rdouble 14y ago
Facebook, Apple and Google campus recruitment is about half and half state schools and half private schools. They don't even bother with some of the Ivies like Yale and Dartmouth. There are quite a few Harvard MBAs at VCs like Sequoia but largely most people working in the valley are not Ivy League. Especially in engineering. If a kid was already a scion of the upper eschelons of the rigid class structure you're suggesting, why on earth would they squander their birthright to go work 15 hours a day with a bunch of tech weirdos? Rich kids don't go into engineering.
- mahyarm 14y ago
  vs. 16 hours a day with a bunch of finance & government type-a's with even worse hazing rituals?
  - rdouble 14y ago
    Yes
- timr 14y ago
  "Facebook, Apple and Google campus recruitment is about half and half state schools and half private schools. They don't even bother with some of the Ivies like Yale and Dartmouth." You're wrong. They may spend more time at MIT and Stanford, but they spend plenty of time at Brown and Yale and Harvard and the other top schools with CS programs. I know for a fact that Facebook hires a ton of people from Harvard. "Rich kids don't go into engineering." You're thinking Paris Hilton, when you should be thinking Moderately Well-Off Kid From Berkeley. That's more than sufficiently "rich", for the purposes of my argument. There are huge numbers of kids living in the suburban midwest for whom a Berkeley CS degree is a financial pipe dream. Dad might be an insurance salesman, and mom a teacher, and they barely have enough money to send junior to State U., let alone a top-tier CS school.
  - cafard 14y ago
    Well, yes, but in the midwest State U. could be Purdue, UIUC, Wisconsin, etc.
ceras 14y ago
This is only true if you think that the likelihood that an arbitrary student from Podunk University is qualified to work at competitive tech firms is the same as an arbitrary student from MIT. Do you think it's true? I don't, personally. These companies hire more from MIT because MIT has so many great candidates, but they are not shy about hiring qualified students from all over (as you personally demonstrate). There is some evidence (from Alan Krueger and Stacy Dale's study) to support the claim that where you go to school does not generally matter (with a few important caveats related to class and ethnicity -- poor black and hispanic kids do benefit a bit from brand name schools). EDIT: I should also add that since the elite schools have such great financial aid, the problem with the rigid class structure starts and ends in the K-12 years, like hkmurakami said. The middle and upper class kids get the best schools and academic support network while growing up, so they're the ones that go to Harvard, even though Harvard will always make sure you can afford to attend. This is very disheartening: I agree.
- timr 14y ago
  "This is only true if you think that the likelihood that an arbitrary student from Podunk University is qualified to work at competitive tech firms is the same as an arbitrary student from MIT." A brilliant, hard-working student who goes to Oklahoma State will have fewer opportunities than a brilliant student who goes to MIT. The "average student" is irrelevant to my argument.
  - ceras 14y ago
    It's relevant because, quite frankly, there aren't that many brilliant students at low-tier schools compared to the top ones. The only evidence you've given for your argument is that there are lots of top tier people in Silicon Valley, but this is a flawed application of conditional probability. What the study I linked suggests is that if the brilliant student was capable of getting into MIT, regardless of whether or not they did get accepted, they are likely to have a similar outcome to the ones who ended up going to MIT.
    - timr 14y ago
zerohp 14y ago
I'm back in college now at a top state university. Google, Facebook, etc are doing all of those things short of setting up permanent shop. I can get a free meal at least once a week for the entire semester just by attending technology company information sessions.
JoeAltmaier 14y ago
I went to Iowa State, and have participated in a dozen startups. In my experience the big-name school gets you an interview only. The rest is up to you. And I'm amused to see listed Standford, Berkely and MIT as 'Ivy'! Big, yes, famous, but Ivy?

by timr 14y ago

hkmurakami 14y ago

Most of the "elite" schools offer fairly generous need based aid. Yes, there are problems like some middle class families getting caught in the gaps -- but the financial divide is a bigger problem in the younger years of a student, all the way from elementary school to high school, where the family's financial means makes a massive difference in the extra attention, extracurricular pursuits, and the quality of instruction at the school. I can only speak for Silicon Valley where I grew up, but there's a strong correlation between a school's quality and the income level of the school district. Your family's financial status impacts where you live, which impacts the quality of your education, which in turn deeply affects your odds of being accepted to an "elite" school in the first place.

timr 14y ago
"Most of the "elite" schools offer fairly generous need based aid. Yes, there are problems like some middle class families getting caught in the gaps." That's a huge problem. The "need" calculation takes into account things like your parents' savings for retirement, as if they're going to cash out their 401k to put you through school. The effect is to lock out the vast majority of students whose parents were responsible, but not rich. "but there's a strong correlation between a school's quality and the income level of the school district." Absolutely. That's probably the biggest source of institutionalized classism (and racism) in our society.

rdouble 14y ago

Facebook, Apple and Google campus recruitment is about half and half state schools and half private schools. They don't even bother with some of the Ivies like Yale and Dartmouth. There are quite a few Harvard MBAs at VCs like Sequoia but largely most people working in the valley are not Ivy League. Especially in engineering. If a kid was already a scion of the upper eschelons of the rigid class structure you're suggesting, why on earth would they squander their birthright to go work 15 hours a day with a bunch of tech weirdos? Rich kids don't go into engineering.

mahyarm 14y ago
vs. 16 hours a day with a bunch of finance & government type-a's with even worse hazing rituals?
- rdouble 14y ago
  Yes
timr 14y ago
"Facebook, Apple and Google campus recruitment is about half and half state schools and half private schools. They don't even bother with some of the Ivies like Yale and Dartmouth." You're wrong. They may spend more time at MIT and Stanford, but they spend plenty of time at Brown and Yale and Harvard and the other top schools with CS programs. I know for a fact that Facebook hires a ton of people from Harvard. "Rich kids don't go into engineering." You're thinking Paris Hilton, when you should be thinking Moderately Well-Off Kid From Berkeley. That's more than sufficiently "rich", for the purposes of my argument. There are huge numbers of kids living in the suburban midwest for whom a Berkeley CS degree is a financial pipe dream. Dad might be an insurance salesman, and mom a teacher, and they barely have enough money to send junior to State U., let alone a top-tier CS school.
- cafard 14y ago
  Well, yes, but in the midwest State U. could be Purdue, UIUC, Wisconsin, etc.

ceras 14y ago

This is only true if you think that the likelihood that an arbitrary student from Podunk University is qualified to work at competitive tech firms is the same as an arbitrary student from MIT. Do you think it's true? I don't, personally. These companies hire more from MIT because MIT has so many great candidates, but they are not shy about hiring qualified students from all over (as you personally demonstrate). There is some evidence (from Alan Krueger and Stacy Dale's study) to support the claim that where you go to school does not generally matter (with a few important caveats related to class and ethnicity -- poor black and hispanic kids do benefit a bit from brand name schools). EDIT: I should also add that since the elite schools have such great financial aid, the problem with the rigid class structure starts and ends in the K-12 years, like hkmurakami said. The middle and upper class kids get the best schools and academic support network while growing up, so they're the ones that go to Harvard, even though Harvard will always make sure you can afford to attend. This is very disheartening: I agree.

timr 14y ago
"This is only true if you think that the likelihood that an arbitrary student from Podunk University is qualified to work at competitive tech firms is the same as an arbitrary student from MIT." A brilliant, hard-working student who goes to Oklahoma State will have fewer opportunities than a brilliant student who goes to MIT. The "average student" is irrelevant to my argument.
- ceras 14y ago
  It's relevant because, quite frankly, there aren't that many brilliant students at low-tier schools compared to the top ones. The only evidence you've given for your argument is that there are lots of top tier people in Silicon Valley, but this is a flawed application of conditional probability. What the study I linked suggests is that if the brilliant student was capable of getting into MIT, regardless of whether or not they did get accepted, they are likely to have a similar outcome to the ones who ended up going to MIT.
  - timr 14y ago

zerohp 14y ago

I'm back in college now at a top state university. Google, Facebook, etc are doing all of those things short of setting up permanent shop. I can get a free meal at least once a week for the entire semester just by attending technology company information sessions.

JoeAltmaier 14y ago

I went to Iowa State, and have participated in a dozen startups. In my experience the big-name school gets you an interview only. The rest is up to you. And I'm amused to see listed Standford, Berkely and MIT as 'Ivy'! Big, yes, famous, but Ivy?