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So I'll be the guy to ask it: What's the problem with underage workers? As long as it's voluntary, the conditions are okay and the pay is fair, who does it hurt

• sdoowpilihp 14y ago
  I suspect the main issue is that the kind of people that forge documents to get children into a job may also be the kind of people that wouldn't worry about fair work conditions or fair pay.
  • JeremyKolb 14y ago
    Beyond that, slavery/human trafficking is likely a part of the problem. Sadly, Apple moving elsewhere will unlikely improve the lives of those left behind. The underage workers will just have to get a different job, which probably isn't as good.
    • gameshot911 14y ago
      From the article: "When new violations are found, Apple requires its suppliers to return the workers back to a school chosen by the family and finance their education. "In addition, the children must continue to receive income matching what they received when they were employed. We also follow up regularly to ensure that the children remain in school and that the suppliers continue to uphold their financial commitment," wrote Apple in its latest report."
      • bcoates 14y ago
        That's all fine for the handful of children involved here. The obvious plan is to deter further violations by firing the underage workers before they get caught, or not hiring them in the first place.
• hack_edu 14y ago
  The issue comes down to the legal and moral definition of consent. How old must a child be until they are wholly fit to make their own decisions? How do you define public policy around this, written to incorporate the whole of the public and not just the outliers? It is absolutely impossible to try to give special exceptions on such a large scale. This leads states to define a minimum age at which a child can give full consent and be legally bound to contracts.
  • shrughes 14y ago
    We send children to school without their consent.
    • baddox 14y ago
      In fact, we force parents to send children to school without their consent.
      • ams6110 14y ago
        We compel education. We don't mandate sending children to school.
    • king_jester 14y ago
      This can be argued to be morally unethical, although some people don't see it that way, but that has more to do with how people view children both as people and property.
  • randomdata 14y ago
    Children of any age are legally able to work on farms owned or operated by their parents, which would disagree with your premise. If parents are able to legally assume consent for their children to work on the farm, they would be able to consent for all employment opportunities. For what it is worth, working on the farm as a youngster brings some of my fondest memories of childhood. I find it rather sad that people outside of the agriculture communities do not have similar opportunities until they grow older.
  • 14y ago
• Ingaz 14y ago
  >> What's the problem with underage workers? CO: They are underage. >> As long as it's voluntary, the conditions are okay and the pay is fair, who does it hurt? CO: They are underage. They can overestimate short-running goals over theirs long-running goals: better education, better health. >>Should we work at fixing the root problems which drive children to work? Yes. Should we fire them and let them starve in the mean time? As I understood, Apple doing exactly as you said. They are not just firing them, Apple guarantee their income wo work. Can you propose the better way than Apple chose? (excuse me for my Runglish)
  • drcube 14y ago
    I mentioned in my comment that Apple was doing the right thing here. What's "CO" mean?
    • Ingaz 14y ago
      I supposed that "Captain Obvious" is international meme. I think that you answered most of your questions yourself. No offence: maybe you are ultimate libertarian or maybe you just do not have children. I think that Apple doing right thing, maybe it's not enough ... but I can't propose something better.
  • phaus 14y ago
    Apple requires its business partners to continue paying underage workers while they go to school. In this case, the company is no longer a business partner. Therefore, it would seem that the children aren't going to get paid.
    • pflats 14y ago
      Fourth paragraph of the article: >>As a result, Apple terminated its relationship with PZ and reported the labor agency (Shemzen Quanshun Human Resources) to the provincial governments of Shenzen and Henan. "The agency had its business license suspended and was fined. The children were returned to their families, and PZ was required to pay expenses to facilitate their successful return," wrote Apple. "In addition, the company that subcontracted its work to PZ was prompted by our findings to audit its other subcontractors for underage labor violations—proving that one discovery can have far-reaching impact." Remember, this company is breaking Chinese labor law. And committing fraud, to boot.
• skylan_q 14y ago
  >Some societies don't have the luxury of an idle childhood. I don't bother arguing this point because pretty much anyone who hasn't taken part in nor witnessed this won't be able to comprehend. For whatever reason, it's assumed de facto that child labor is bad. It took the great depression to restrict child labor in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United_...
• DanBC 14y ago
  The problem with underage workers is: 1) Education is a right which far too many people miss out on 2) Children's bodies and brains are still forming and so making them repeat actions many times per day is intrinsically harmful and the lack of mental development is similarly harmful 3) Children in factory jobs removes opportunities for adults to do the same jobs. 4) The pay is rarely "fair"; the conditions are rarely "okay". You're right that it's better that children earn a bit of cash to help with family bills. But that would be better done by paying the parents a fair wage.
  • drcube 14y ago
    You're right that children shouldn't have to work. But in the situations where they do anyway, it serves them better to fix the underlying problem -- poverty -- than to fire them and send them right back to the conditions they tried to escape. Because when legal means of earning money aren't available, what's left but gangs, robbery, drugs and prostitution? Again, I'm not talking about kids who are forced into work, aka slaves. I'm also not trying to implicate Apple here. It seems like they're doing the right thing by educating the underage workers and guaranteeing them their previous income.
    • DanBC 14y ago
      You're right - children tend to work because they need to work, not for fun or to get a bit of cash for nonsense. But that's why it's important to have strict laws. Desperate people are easy to exploit. I guess it's better that they're exploited in a clean factory rather than sold to be indentured slaves or worse.
  • ataggart 14y ago
    In a society with significant child labor, it's not clear to me how "just pay the parents more" is a serious response. When significant child labor exists, it does so for a reason. Given that parents would probably prefer their kids get an education instead of working, it's not clear to me that depriving them of the option to work in a factory will result in the child going to school. In all likelihood, the child will continue to work, albeit at their next-best (perhaps illicit) option; their best option (via revealed preference) having been removed by enlightened westerners who don't have to face the same constrained set of choices.
• youngerdryas 14y ago
  Do we really have to re-argue child labor laws. Should we be allowed to pollute their country because they are struggling? If they want to exploit their children let their companies do it, we already had that battle and made our decision.
  • kamjam 14y ago
    How about we not exploit their children or their adults? But of course, that will drive up the end cost of goods, which in turn hits everyones wallet directly and so everyone starts complaining. It's just easier to turn a blind eye and ignorance is bliss. I agree with the OP. I am originally from a 3rd world country (one of the poorest in the world) but had the fortune that my father managed to emigrate to a western country. It's no good reading about it in a book or newspaper, that stuff from Slumdog Millionaire does actually happen. When your next worry is where your next meal is going to come from you really don't care about child labor laws, education or better health. If you can't afford food, it's unlikely you can afford the other two. It seriously is a case of bringing in food for the whole family for some of these people.
    • youngerdryas 14y ago
      I understand your argument more than you suppose, but the reality is we already have made these laws. Until developing countries reach that level it is best that all the profits from such activity stay in that country, speeding their rise to parity. Edit: This may be too idealistic because Samsung and others seem to get a free pass, but no American company is going to get away with child labor regardless of how bad other countries companies are behaving, I have no problem with that fact. Let lesser countries take the low road.
      • kamjam 14y ago
        I agree it's idealistic, but as you say it's something we should be aiming for. Unfortunately the only way that will happen is if people make a conscience decision and talk with their wallet; whether it is Apple, Samsung or Starbucks etc.
• bcoates 14y ago
  Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier goes into this, among other things, in the context of 1930s England. I don't know how much the situation in China is similar: http://www.george-orwell.org/The_Road_to_Wigan_Pier/6.html http://www.george-orwell.org/The_Road_to_Wigan_Pier/6.html The time was when I used to lament over quite imaginary pictures of lads of fourteen dragged protesting from their lessons and set to work at dismal jobs. It seemed to me dreadful that the doom of a 'job' should descend upon anyone at fourteen. Of course I know now that there is not one working-class boy in a thousand who does not pine for the day when he will leave school. He wants to be doing real work, not wasting his time on ridiculous rubbish like history and geography. To the working class, the notion of staying at school till you are nearly grown-up seems merely contemptible and unmanly. The idea of a great big boy of eighteen, who ought to be bringing a pound a week home to his parents, going to school in a ridiculous uniform and even being caned for not doing his lessons! Just fancy a working-class boy of eighteen allowing himself to be caned! He is a man when the other is still a baby. Ernest Pontifex, in Samuel Butler's Way of All Flesh, after he had had a few glimpses of real life, looked back on his public school and university education and found it a 'sickly, debilitating debauch'. There is much in middle-class life that looks sickly and debilitating when you see it from a working-class angle.
• doctorpangloss 14y ago
  Should we work at fixing the root problems which drive children to work? Yes. Should we fire them and let them starve in the mean time? I don't think so. Most contemporary political philosophers disagree with the "who does it hurt" theory pretty simply: it hurts adults. What factory wouldn't prefer a pliant, cheaper, healthier 16 year old to a demanding, hungrier, ornery adult? There are lots of unemployed adults.