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> Now, I’m all for bad projects and bad code being called out. Bullshit, sorry. Questions to ask yourself before "calling out bad code". 1. Does this code be

• deleted 14y ago
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• MartinCron 14y ago
  How can we as a development community rationally expect to grow the open source ecosystem and encourage people with this type of snobbery? There's one lesson that I'm personally taking from this, after unsolicited ridicule, one sincere apology, one bullshit non-apology, and one arrogant I have nothing to apologize for! If I build a small thing to scratch my own itch (which I often do) I'm going to think twice about sharing it with the world at large. Or, more succinctly, I've become yet more of a misanthrope. Thanks guys!
  • CodeMage 14y ago
    Let's face it, there seems to be nothing anyone can share on the Internet without someone else demonstrating John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory [1]. I'm not saying everyone should always just let it slide, but try not to let it get to you, either. [1]: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19
    • MartinCron 14y ago
      I have shared literally thousands of photos on Flickr. Nobody has told me that my photos shouldn't exist of that my photos make their eyes bleed. Can we, as a community, be at least as nice as serious amateur photographers?
      • SyneRyder 14y ago
        Perhaps you haven't found "You Are Not A Photographer" yet. Some photography communities have a similar level of snark and calling out others, sadly.
        • MartinCron 14y ago
          I thought about that site, which is terrible. It feels a little different in that it seems to be fueled by insecure pro photogs who want to instill fear of hiring second-rate hacks. Maybe I should be, but I am generally unafraid of sharing my photos. http://Flickr.com/photos/martincron http://Flickr.com/photos/martincron
    • benatkin 14y ago
      This doesn't apply as neither Steve Klabnik nor Corey Haines are anonymous.
  • sillysaurus 14y ago
    This is in fact exactly why I use Bitbucket private repos.
  • reinhardt 14y ago
    Missing option: grow a thicker skin and don't take everything personally.
    • carbocation 14y ago
      I, for one, look forward to the day when someone stumbles across my code and finds it worthy of commentary. Good or bad, just not indifferent, please.
      • MartinCron 14y ago
        Do you want meaningful commentary or empty snarky ridicule?
        • carbocation 14y ago
          I'm simply saying that at the moment, either of those would be more interesting than total ignorance.
          • MartinCron 14y ago
            Actually, this makes me think... I don't think I've ever given feedback on an open source project. Maybe I, as someone horrified by Heather Arthur's story, have some sort of ethical obligation to provide constructive and helpful feedback to people. I'm not a great programmer, but I've been at this for long enough to have some useful opinions. Open invitation for my fellow HN community members: point me at a repo and I'll try to say something actually helpful.
            • ncallaway 14y ago
              This reminds me of the recent ShowHN of criticue (http://criticue.com/ http://criticue.com/). You could do something similar (or those guys could do it) where you provide feedback on other people's repositories in exchange for feedback on your repository. Sort of a community code review process.
  • dvo 14y ago
    Thinking about code in terms of "good" and "bad" is not very useful. Don't worry about what developers on the internet think about the quality of your code unless they offer specific suggestions in a constructive and instructive manner. If someone offers specific and thoughtful suggestions or criticism, learn everything you can from them.
• dangrossman 14y ago
  It's akin to someone judging the quality of "curb alert" listings in Craigslist's Free Stuff category -- I don't think discussing criteria is helpful.
• benatkin 14y ago
  Yes, the author came off as an Agile snob. Might be helpful to LivingSocial's plans (which lead nowhere BTW) but this attitude is toxic to the development community at large.
  • CodeMage 14y ago
    Agile? Could you elaborate on that?
    • benatkin 14y ago
      To me, both this and the original complaint, come from dogmatic sentiments like "Legacy Code is Code Without Tests". http://www.kjetilk.com/2009/02/legacy-code-is-code-without-tests.html http://www.kjetilk.com/2009/02/legacy-code-is-code-without-t...
      • MartinCron 14y ago
        The actual truth is that legacy code is code that works well enough for people to care about
• jiggy2011 14y ago
  That is the weird thing about github though. On the one hand you have big important apps there such as Linux and Rails which have quality standards and where developers at large should take a look and make their voices known if they can find things that suck. The argument I guess is, at what point does it become fair game for criticism? OTOH it is also a place for your crappy bash scripts. I've got plenty of hacky scripts that I would consider putting on github, just as a backup as much as anything else. I honestly wouldn't care what criticism they got, though criticism with accompanying pull requests would be vastly superior. My main hesitation though would be if a prospective employer goes and looks through it and goes "oh, this guy's code sucks".
  • chewxy 14y ago
    Which is why I put my shitty scripts in gist (in fact I am such a shitty programmer, I practically have an empty github public profile), I share them in my blog, and last week, I was actually horrified that someone used my shitty scripts and shitty methods that I outlined in my blog (http://blog.chewxy.com/2012/11/16/random-documents-from-couchdb/ http://blog.chewxy.com/2012/11/16/random-documents-from-couc...), I removed my gist. I don't want people to use my shitty methods or shitty code, I just want somewhere to put my thoughts.
• CodeMage 14y ago
  Bullshit, sorry. I can't help feeling that this kind of attitude is what caused Heather to feel bad in the first place. I agree with your points, but the way you present them leaves a lot (of politeness) to desire.
  • jussij 14y ago
    Politeness? The reply might have be forceful, might have use the word bullshit, but it what way did he offend anyone? I thought he hit the nail on the head. It's no body else’s business but your own what you choose to put in GitHub.
    • vacri 14y ago
      Calling someone's writings "bullshit" is pretty much the same as calling someone's code "eye-bleeding" -> "your product is of such low value it's worthless" Those that claim the genesis of this whole issue is offensive should take equal offense to the "bullshit" line.
      • jussij 14y ago
        I think that is drawing a fairly long bow. I read his use of the word bullshit as effectively saying rubbish, only in a more colourful way. So to paraphrase the OP I read him as saying: Rubbish, I don't agree with you and here is a list of reasons why?
        • CodeMage 14y ago
          I assume that "rubbish" or "bullshit" refer to what the other person said, so when you expand that paraphrase it turns out like this: "What you said is rubbish. I don't agree with you and here is a list of reasons why." Now, can you tell me what value there is in the "What you said is rubbish" part? Let's go one step further: what do you lose by omitting that part? Mind, I'm just as sick as the next guy of the whole "we must never be negative", politically correct thought police that has been taking politeness to unrecognizable and unreasonable extremes. Sometimes there are good reasons to be aggressive or less than polite, but "sometimes" is not the same as "always" or "most of the time" or "as often as I feel like it".
• dandelany 14y ago
  This, a million times this. Criticizing other people's code is a good idea if you have been asked for input, or if the developer is encouraging the public at large to use their code. Otherwise, it's just unwarranted negativity which has the net effect of discouraging other members of the community from sharing code which might be useful to someone. I have plenty of code that I'm not proud of but would push to Github anyway for the sake of an extra backup/convenience.
  • ionforce 14y ago
    Do you happen to know if the original developer did in fact ask for feedback?
    • dpark 14y ago
      No and yes. No, she did not ask anyone to post snarky comments on Twitter about her code. Yes, after said snarky comments were posted, she asked those posting the comments for constructive feedback. (I don't believe any of them actually gave her any constructive feedback, though.)
• nirvdrum 14y ago
  I guess it all comes down to how you present it (and yes, I'm ignoring the "replace" issue for the moment). I honestly don't think everything under the sun should be made publicly available just because you can or because it's easy. The reason being primarily because these sorts of things tend to be copied and re-used all over the place. So, a quick hack on a project you don't care much about can end up in many other projects. This is amplified by whatever your clout is. Having said that, a reasonable disclaimer about what your project really is more than assuages that concern for me. Or if it's small enough, rolling it up into a gist might be an option for proof-of-concept stuff.
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    • nirvdrum 14y ago
      This entire forum exists for the purpose of sharing fact and opinion alike. If you don't want people to share opinions (or is it just the ones that don't align with your world view?), fine, but you don't need to be an ass about it. Although part of me wonders if this is a joke, given the parallels to the situation at hand. Primarily, you clearly don't think all comments should be made public and felt the need to unhelpfully criticize mine. If so, well-played.
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        • nirvdrum 14y ago
          Whether that makes the world worse is highly subjective. I don't believe things are objectively any more valuable just because they're public. I have, however, seen a lot of bad patterns and code snippets copied and work their way into many codebases because one of the easiest ways to learn is to copy another source. I have seen people completely disown or neglect projects because it's "public", so what more do you want? I don't buy that these sorts of repositories are doing the world a favor and they increase the level of noise, helping drown out the good stuff. But, hey, like I said if you add a pretty reasonable disclaimer to your README so the expectations are at least framed properly, I can get on board with that.
• reinhardt 14y ago
  Translation: before calling out "bad code" (with or without scare quotes), run a quick cost-benefit analysis of what might cost you to speak your mind vs chuckling to yourself or sharing in private with someone. So much for claiming the moral high ground. In any case, the first three are most likely false in this case and the fourth is just silly. Do you appropriately, discretely and professionally inform the author of every tweet, blog, or page that is wrong on the internet?
• BCM43 14y ago
  I think adding "Does this code represent a risk to others in some way" to that is also valid. Especially in the security realm, but even in day to day stuff. If code is going to cause other people headaches, help them avoid that.
• VMG 14y ago
  > Github == "Developer Playground/Experimentation Lab". That doesn't preclude constructive criticism. I put my stuff on Github for review. Granted, I wouldn't like malicious comments but I sure as hell would like to know if I did something wrong. > Why in the hell should I have to feel that every piece of code I put up there 'must' adhere to 'your' standards or anyone else's? You don't have to feel that way if somebody points out your code has flaws. The issue in heathers case was (1) the code wasn't bad (2) the criticism was malicious.
• kristm 14y ago
  Maybe I'm an outsider, maybe I came from a different background, but I don't see how calling out bad code instantly becomes a type of snobbery. The author to me is leaning towards constructive criticism of code, which isn't what we all need from time to time? I don't mind, call out all the bad projects or bad code in my github repo