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Here's David Cramer's notpology: http://justcramer.com/2013/01/24/being-wrong-on-the-internet/ http://justcramer.com/2013/01/24/being-wrong-on-the-internet...

dos1 14y ago
Wow, David Cramer is a total asshole! That Steve Klabnik guy is also an asshole. The only one who doesn't appear to a complete dick is Corey Haines, whose apology was better. Not great, but better. Here's the thing - if you ever even consider saying things like this to someone on the internet, you're an asshole. It's not a one time accidental thing. Nope, it's in your personality. I hope I never meet either of these two individuals, but if I ever meet them face to face I will make sure to tell them exactly what I think of them.
- Dylan16807 14y ago
  I'm sorry what? If you even consider saying that code is like an existing project but not good, or implying that a piece of code is badly written, you're an asshole!? Don't you think you're taking this a bit far?
  - dos1 14y ago
    He didn't merely say the project "wasn't good", he implied it in a snarky, very unconstructive way. Here's his quote from twitter: >Ever wanted to make sed or grep worse? http://github.com/harthur/replace http://github.com/harthur/replace In the world I live in, that's called being an asshole. Look, I'm not saying these guys should apologize (in fact, if this is how they apologize it's probably best they don't), I'm simply stating that they're dicks. I know a lot of computer programmers just like them. Edit: And I hate working with people like them. I don't care how brilliant they are, programming is a team sport in most places. If you're a jerk I don't want you on my team, no matter how many awesome sed scripts you can whip up.
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      It shouldn't matter if it's unconstructive. He's not talking to the author of the code. I still don't see how being snarky, or god forbid considering being snarky, makes you an asshole. It's just some code; he's not insulting anybody.
      - dos1 14y ago
        So you don't take pride or feel a sense of ownership over your code? That would put you in the minority I surmise. Fact: The vast majority of people would take the twitter conversation Heather posted as a personal attack. Not many people are able to separate attacks on their work product from attacks on themselves (for good reason - since I feel like most people derive a sense of pride from their work). I dare say it would also take an asshole to not recognize this fact and make rude comments and not realize someone would be personally offended even though "it's just some code".
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - Gigablah 14y ago
        Ever wanted to see a bad argument? Read the post by Dylan16807!
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        As long as you're linking a specific post, go for it. I've made mistakes. But I'm going to hope it's not just a post you disagree with. Just like I hope you don't call code bad because it uses OTB or omits semicolons. It should be failing to solve the problem it sets out to solve, and in an interesting manner. (Note: I have not looked at the code tweeted about.) Edit: Wait how did THIS post get downvoted? I can understand the earlier posts but I can't even imagine what's objectionable about this one.
        cygx 14y ago
        Don't know, but possibly because you're derailing the discussion. The outrage is not about constructive (or even unconstructive) criticism of the code itself (which appears to be fine): At least one of the guys ridiculed the author and questioned her competence for the sole reason of implementing a subset of the features of GNU find+sed on top of Node.js.
- mikecane 14y ago
  >>>and what separates people is how they deal with it. That.
- awj 14y ago
  Meanwhile calling people assholes and declaring that the reason is "in [their] personality" based on what they may have considered saying, that's perfectly ok? Have you really never made a comment without fully thinking out the ramifications, without missing some of the consequences, or just simply without really thinking period? People say shitty things sometimes, but labeling them as an asshole for all time based on that is patently ridiculous.
  - dos1 14y ago
    Oh sure, I've made plenty of stupid comments, but that's not what these guys did. They picked a repo on Github that they thought was duplicating functionality in Unix (oh the horror!) and engaged in classic schoolyard bullying. Publicly shaming the code and the author, apparently to make themselves feel better and show the world how smart they were. And at the end of it, the apologies they issued after the internet turned against them were poor. So yes, I do occasionally say dumb things, but I'm never a bully. If I say something mean it's because it was provoked. And if I need to apologize for something, I do it with real contrition.
    - awj 14y ago
      I can comfortably say, based on more than a few arguments and discussions, that Steve Klabnik is not a bully. This situation sucked all around for a lot of reasons, but "that's it, this guy is an asshole end of store" is a poor reaction to it. If you want to judge a person with any degree of finality by one isolated incident that you barely were involved in, that's your prerogative. I think that speaks more about you than it does the person. Hopefully you'll give me some evidence that changes my mind, I'm at least still open to that.
      - dos1 14y ago
        How can you begrudge me my opinion when the only facts I have corroborate it? http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2010-09-24-trolling-is-a-art http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2010-09-24-trolling-is-a-... This post was from 2010 where he admits he's a jerk and can't help it. I think that pretty clearly is a victory for my thesis.
- im3w1l 14y ago
  >Wow, David Cramer is a total asshole! That Steve Klabnik guy is also an asshole. Since we are talking about insults, reputation and constructive criticism: Does HN think the quoted text is appropriate? Personally I think it is about on par with "makes my eyes bleed".
  - Gigablah 14y ago
    To be fair, that criticism is backed up by evidence. Whereas the main reason harthur's code made their "eyes bleed" was because it was written in node.js.
- triplesec 14y ago
  cramer's apology does imply that he didn't apologise properly the first time, and it was his lack of communication that did it. of course that could just be damage limitation
ceol 14y ago
He really spent a lot of time not apologizing. In fact, not once in his entire post did he even begin to apologize. Most of it was him trying (and failing) to excuse his behavior in the most childish way possible: by blaming everyone but himself. Seriously, what an asshole.
donohoe 14y ago
Hate to say it but I think his post is fair and to the point. You don't have to like what he said but he puts it in context and within the realm of Twitter - a 140 limited space of communication. His original tweet was "Ever wanted to make sed or grep worse?". Really. Can we not be critical on the internet any more? And here is EVERYONE saying worse things about him in the comments!? Go look in the mirror people. I'll take the downvotes. [updated: typos]
- potatolicious 14y ago
  > "You don't have to like that he said but he puts it in context and within the realm of Twitter - a 140 limited space of communication." This is part of why I dislike Twitter - the 140-char restriction supposedly makes you to the point and concise, but in reality it just encourages snark and imprecision. It's a world of sound bites, and "Ever wanted to make sed or grep worse" sounds wittier and has more jazz than "I really dislike this open source project and here's why." That said, if a platform disallows you from being clear and fair to fellow people, don't use it. Ultimately the responsibility to be good to one another is your own to enforce, not Twitter's. > "Can we not be critical on the internet any more?" Honestly? No. The internet is full of flippant, callous, outright dismissals. It's reached epidemic scale - and it extends far beyond our little corner of tech. Everyone wants to have their little sound bite hating on something, and it's juvenile. Given the current state of things, IMO criticism demands a higher standard than ever before. It's not that we can't be critical, it's that we can't be critical without qualifying and substantiating said criticism - there's just too much "hurr this sucks" floating around. This may necessitate using communications platforms that permit more than 140 chars at a time ;)
  - nollidge 14y ago
    I don't disagree with your larger point, but as an official member of the Twitter Defense Squadron (got a badge and everything): > the 140-char restriction supposedly makes you to the point and concise, but in reality it just encourages snark and imprecision. This is, of course, a false dichotomy. It does both, depending on the author, and the author's mood. The solution to this problem is to not follow jerks on Twitter. Follow cool people whose tweets have wit, poetry, interesting facts, and/or links to the same. 140 characters forces only minimalism, which exaggerates any number of latent traits, good and bad.
calinet6 14y ago
This is bound to be an unpopular opinion, but why exactly does anyone have to apologize? He's absolutely right. Criticism comes from every corner, especially in the software world. Your code stands for itself. Simple as that. And I tell this to almost every programmer I work with at some point or another. If they have an emotional response to a code review, or criticism of any kind—"Code is never personal. Whatever I say about your code has nothing to do with you. All I want is for us to improve this together, and we do that by exchanging ideas." Criticisms are never directed at people, they are never intended to be personal attacks—they are simply evaluations of quality, and we're all trying to achieve higher quality. When you put code out there, you open it up to response. If people decide that it's good, then great; if people decide that it's bad, then great! You have an opportunity to improve it. That is a godsend. It's a million times better than if you received no feedback at all. Male, female, good coder, bad coder, I don't care who you are: if you go sob in a corner because you receive criticism, then you're not going to improve. You have to join the discussion like an adult. Cramer may have an asshole opinion here, but sometimes assholes are right. Sometimes the world is harsh, but through adversity we can become better. Deal with it. * Update: Well, I've read up more. These criticisms were not the productive kind, and were tactless and mean. I stand by what I said, but the people in question didn't criticize right, and they deserve the vitriol being directed at them. Shame.
- kenneth_reitz 14y ago
  Constructive criticism should always be welcome. These comments weren't constructive, by any means.
- xentronium 14y ago
  > You have to join the discussion like an adult You don't start "discussion" with "how to make sed and grep worse", you just don't. She (harthur) even attempted to get some real feedback out of the snarky twitter mob, but it turns out that "nothing's _wrong_ with it, but I don't want to build my app on top of others' code who are at this level of understanding".
  - calinet6 14y ago
doktrin 14y ago
> notpology That basically summed it up. I guess it's clear the 140 character limit was never the issue.

dos1 14y ago

Wow, David Cramer is a total asshole! That Steve Klabnik guy is also an asshole. The only one who doesn't appear to a complete dick is Corey Haines, whose apology was better. Not great, but better. Here's the thing - if you ever even consider saying things like this to someone on the internet, you're an asshole. It's not a one time accidental thing. Nope, it's in your personality. I hope I never meet either of these two individuals, but if I ever meet them face to face I will make sure to tell them exactly what I think of them.

Dylan16807 14y ago
I'm sorry what? If you even consider saying that code is like an existing project but not good, or implying that a piece of code is badly written, you're an asshole!? Don't you think you're taking this a bit far?
- dos1 14y ago
  He didn't merely say the project "wasn't good", he implied it in a snarky, very unconstructive way. Here's his quote from twitter: >Ever wanted to make sed or grep worse? http://github.com/harthur/replace http://github.com/harthur/replace In the world I live in, that's called being an asshole. Look, I'm not saying these guys should apologize (in fact, if this is how they apologize it's probably best they don't), I'm simply stating that they're dicks. I know a lot of computer programmers just like them. Edit: And I hate working with people like them. I don't care how brilliant they are, programming is a team sport in most places. If you're a jerk I don't want you on my team, no matter how many awesome sed scripts you can whip up.
  - Dylan16807 14y ago
    It shouldn't matter if it's unconstructive. He's not talking to the author of the code. I still don't see how being snarky, or god forbid considering being snarky, makes you an asshole. It's just some code; he's not insulting anybody.
    - dos1 14y ago
      So you don't take pride or feel a sense of ownership over your code? That would put you in the minority I surmise. Fact: The vast majority of people would take the twitter conversation Heather posted as a personal attack. Not many people are able to separate attacks on their work product from attacks on themselves (for good reason - since I feel like most people derive a sense of pride from their work). I dare say it would also take an asshole to not recognize this fact and make rude comments and not realize someone would be personally offended even though "it's just some code".
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - Gigablah 14y ago
      Ever wanted to see a bad argument? Read the post by Dylan16807!
      - Dylan16807 14y ago
        As long as you're linking a specific post, go for it. I've made mistakes. But I'm going to hope it's not just a post you disagree with. Just like I hope you don't call code bad because it uses OTB or omits semicolons. It should be failing to solve the problem it sets out to solve, and in an interesting manner. (Note: I have not looked at the code tweeted about.) Edit: Wait how did THIS post get downvoted? I can understand the earlier posts but I can't even imagine what's objectionable about this one.
        cygx 14y ago
        Don't know, but possibly because you're derailing the discussion. The outrage is not about constructive (or even unconstructive) criticism of the code itself (which appears to be fine): At least one of the guys ridiculed the author and questioned her competence for the sole reason of implementing a subset of the features of GNU find+sed on top of Node.js.
mikecane 14y ago
>>>and what separates people is how they deal with it. That.
awj 14y ago
Meanwhile calling people assholes and declaring that the reason is "in [their] personality" based on what they may have considered saying, that's perfectly ok? Have you really never made a comment without fully thinking out the ramifications, without missing some of the consequences, or just simply without really thinking period? People say shitty things sometimes, but labeling them as an asshole for all time based on that is patently ridiculous.
- dos1 14y ago
  Oh sure, I've made plenty of stupid comments, but that's not what these guys did. They picked a repo on Github that they thought was duplicating functionality in Unix (oh the horror!) and engaged in classic schoolyard bullying. Publicly shaming the code and the author, apparently to make themselves feel better and show the world how smart they were. And at the end of it, the apologies they issued after the internet turned against them were poor. So yes, I do occasionally say dumb things, but I'm never a bully. If I say something mean it's because it was provoked. And if I need to apologize for something, I do it with real contrition.
  - awj 14y ago
    I can comfortably say, based on more than a few arguments and discussions, that Steve Klabnik is not a bully. This situation sucked all around for a lot of reasons, but "that's it, this guy is an asshole end of store" is a poor reaction to it. If you want to judge a person with any degree of finality by one isolated incident that you barely were involved in, that's your prerogative. I think that speaks more about you than it does the person. Hopefully you'll give me some evidence that changes my mind, I'm at least still open to that.
    - dos1 14y ago
      How can you begrudge me my opinion when the only facts I have corroborate it? http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2010-09-24-trolling-is-a-art http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2010-09-24-trolling-is-a-... This post was from 2010 where he admits he's a jerk and can't help it. I think that pretty clearly is a victory for my thesis.
im3w1l 14y ago
>Wow, David Cramer is a total asshole! That Steve Klabnik guy is also an asshole. Since we are talking about insults, reputation and constructive criticism: Does HN think the quoted text is appropriate? Personally I think it is about on par with "makes my eyes bleed".
- Gigablah 14y ago
  To be fair, that criticism is backed up by evidence. Whereas the main reason harthur's code made their "eyes bleed" was because it was written in node.js.
triplesec 14y ago
cramer's apology does imply that he didn't apologise properly the first time, and it was his lack of communication that did it. of course that could just be damage limitation

ceol 14y ago

He really spent a lot of time not apologizing. In fact, not once in his entire post did he even begin to apologize. Most of it was him trying (and failing) to excuse his behavior in the most childish way possible: by blaming everyone but himself. Seriously, what an asshole.

donohoe 14y ago

Hate to say it but I think his post is fair and to the point. You don't have to like what he said but he puts it in context and within the realm of Twitter - a 140 limited space of communication. His original tweet was "Ever wanted to make sed or grep worse?". Really. Can we not be critical on the internet any more? And here is EVERYONE saying worse things about him in the comments!? Go look in the mirror people. I'll take the downvotes. [updated: typos]

potatolicious 14y ago
> "You don't have to like that he said but he puts it in context and within the realm of Twitter - a 140 limited space of communication." This is part of why I dislike Twitter - the 140-char restriction supposedly makes you to the point and concise, but in reality it just encourages snark and imprecision. It's a world of sound bites, and "Ever wanted to make sed or grep worse" sounds wittier and has more jazz than "I really dislike this open source project and here's why." That said, if a platform disallows you from being clear and fair to fellow people, don't use it. Ultimately the responsibility to be good to one another is your own to enforce, not Twitter's. > "Can we not be critical on the internet any more?" Honestly? No. The internet is full of flippant, callous, outright dismissals. It's reached epidemic scale - and it extends far beyond our little corner of tech. Everyone wants to have their little sound bite hating on something, and it's juvenile. Given the current state of things, IMO criticism demands a higher standard than ever before. It's not that we can't be critical, it's that we can't be critical without qualifying and substantiating said criticism - there's just too much "hurr this sucks" floating around. This may necessitate using communications platforms that permit more than 140 chars at a time ;)
- nollidge 14y ago
  I don't disagree with your larger point, but as an official member of the Twitter Defense Squadron (got a badge and everything): > the 140-char restriction supposedly makes you to the point and concise, but in reality it just encourages snark and imprecision. This is, of course, a false dichotomy. It does both, depending on the author, and the author's mood. The solution to this problem is to not follow jerks on Twitter. Follow cool people whose tweets have wit, poetry, interesting facts, and/or links to the same. 140 characters forces only minimalism, which exaggerates any number of latent traits, good and bad.

calinet6 14y ago

This is bound to be an unpopular opinion, but why exactly does anyone have to apologize? He's absolutely right. Criticism comes from every corner, especially in the software world. Your code stands for itself. Simple as that. And I tell this to almost every programmer I work with at some point or another. If they have an emotional response to a code review, or criticism of any kind—"Code is never personal. Whatever I say about your code has nothing to do with you. All I want is for us to improve this together, and we do that by exchanging ideas." Criticisms are never directed at people, they are never intended to be personal attacks—they are simply evaluations of quality, and we're all trying to achieve higher quality. When you put code out there, you open it up to response. If people decide that it's good, then great; if people decide that it's bad, then great! You have an opportunity to improve it. That is a godsend. It's a million times better than if you received no feedback at all. Male, female, good coder, bad coder, I don't care who you are: if you go sob in a corner because you receive criticism, then you're not going to improve. You have to join the discussion like an adult. Cramer may have an asshole opinion here, but sometimes assholes are right. Sometimes the world is harsh, but through adversity we can become better. Deal with it. * Update: Well, I've read up more. These criticisms were not the productive kind, and were tactless and mean. I stand by what I said, but the people in question didn't criticize right, and they deserve the vitriol being directed at them. Shame.

kenneth_reitz 14y ago
Constructive criticism should always be welcome. These comments weren't constructive, by any means.
xentronium 14y ago
> You have to join the discussion like an adult You don't start "discussion" with "how to make sed and grep worse", you just don't. She (harthur) even attempted to get some real feedback out of the snarky twitter mob, but it turns out that "nothing's _wrong_ with it, but I don't want to build my app on top of others' code who are at this level of understanding".
- calinet6 14y ago

doktrin 14y ago

> notpology That basically summed it up. I guess it's clear the 140 character limit was never the issue.