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Then I see these people’s follower count, and I sob harder. I can’t help but think of potential future employers that are no longer potential. There's a big re

Then I see these people’s follower count, and I sob harder. I can’t help but think of potential future employers that are no longer potential. There's a big responsibility that comes with being well-liked and nice. When someone with a good reputation and the means to broadcast it speaks negatively about someone, it matters much more than someone who is routinely rude, frequently negative, or unknown. I know that if the most well-liked and nice person in my lab were to criticize my ability as a scientist (in the same manner), I would worry about what everyone else thought about me now, that someone who never seems to say mean things would so something like that. These individuals do good things: they contribute voluntarily to communities, they help high school kids learn to code, etc. And these individuals are visible. And if you search steveklabnik on HN, his comments don't seem mean or negative. It's easy to forget, and it's a little paradoxical, but when you're really nice, there's a different standard. Perhaps there shouldn't be, but it does have a different impact.

doktrin 14y ago
Fair point. Once I read the names of those involved, I was a little taken aback for this very reason. Friends I respect think quite highly of Corey, for instance. Also worth noting, both [Steve and Corey] have published apologies on their own blogs. Both are worth reading.
- darkxanthos 14y ago
  Here's a link to that apology: http://programmingtour.blogspot.com/2013/01/im-sorry.html http://programmingtour.blogspot.com/2013/01/im-sorry.html I know Corey and don't really know too much about what happened here, so I'll only say he's one of the most positive and supportive people I know.
  - ahi 14y ago
    -1 in my regard for being a jerk. +2 for a sincere apology. A reminder that owning up to a mistake can make that mistake go away and then some.
    - recycleme 14y ago
      People make mistakes all the time. If it's someone you know in person then you should probably give an apology (or vice-versa, depending on the situation). Someone has to own up because if it doesn't happen, you can end up with an ill workplace/relationship/whatever. But the internet can be a strange place. How do you apologize to strangers? With blogs? I mean, these pieces are going around being viewed by hundreds of people. Is it really helping? I'm not sure, but, at the very least, people are trying.
      - potatolicious 14y ago
        Email, Google+, Facebook, Twitter? There are many ways to apologize to someone without making a public spectacle of it.
      - eitland 14y ago
        There might be something like a rule of thumb that apologies should be as visible as the insult. If someone insult someone in a conversation, say sorry. If someone insult someone in front of their boss, go back and tell that you are honestly sorry. It hurts and it is why you think before you speak.
- cachvico 14y ago
  Here's the other apology, http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2013-01-23-node http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2013-01-23-node Heather, don't take it personally - your code is fine! JavaScript, on the other hand, is a wounded warrior by now..
  - brazzy 14y ago
    My takeaway: "Twitter makes it so hard not to accidentally be an asshole."
    - timinman 14y ago
      It's certainly not Twitter's fault. Lately, the open source community's underbelly has been exposed. "But open source is right and we are the good guys?!", or... "But I know those guys and they are usually really cool!" We want to categorize people as being bad or good, and it messes with our brain when we think we may have to re-categorize. It's more useful to realize that we all have a capacity to do both good and harm. It's also more useful to judge ourselves than others. Recognizing the need to change is the beginning. I know that I need Outside help to maximize the good and minimize the bad that I am capable of.
      - brazzy 14y ago
        Yes, it's partially Twitter's fault. Enforced brevity in a popularity contest setting encourages smartassery and discourages (or makes impossible) nuanced expression.
        anu_gupta 14y ago
        Twitter isn't coming up to anyone, twisting their arm and telling them to be a dick. Lots of people manage to use Twitter without coming across like assholes. If one feels that 140 characters isn't sufficient to correctly represent one's nuanced thoughts, then don't tweet.
        14y ago
- huhtenberg 14y ago
  How nice of them. Makes you wonder how many apologies are outstanding.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    Only one, from @zeeg.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - blatherard 14y ago
      Here's his non-apology http://justcramer.com/2013/01/24/being-wrong-on-the-internet/ http://justcramer.com/2013/01/24/being-wrong-on-the-internet...
  - huhtenberg 14y ago
    To clarify - apologies to other people. There's no such thing as accidental one-off snobbery.
    - brazzy 14y ago
      Sure you're not falling victim to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error ?
      - huhtenberg 14y ago
        > I cannot even make this stuff up: <url> You are clearly well versed in this subject. So, how would you attribute this remark?
        brazzy 14y ago
        Twitter; you don't have space for detailed (and possibly constructive) criticism, you substitute witticisms because that's what gets retweeted (i.e. what the environment rewards). Maybe you read another snarky tweet just before and want to one-up it. Maybe you just worked on some messy code and are a bit frustrated and this looked like the right place to vent. Off-hand snarkiness can be pretty mean, but that doesn't mean that everyone who engages in it is a fundamentally bad person; In fact I sincerely doubt anyone here has never written something similar.
- nollidge 14y ago
  Here's David Cramer's notpology: http://justcramer.com/2013/01/24/being-wrong-on-the-internet/ http://justcramer.com/2013/01/24/being-wrong-on-the-internet...
  - dos1 14y ago
    Wow, David Cramer is a total asshole! That Steve Klabnik guy is also an asshole. The only one who doesn't appear to a complete dick is Corey Haines, whose apology was better. Not great, but better. Here's the thing - if you ever even consider saying things like this to someone on the internet, you're an asshole. It's not a one time accidental thing. Nope, it's in your personality. I hope I never meet either of these two individuals, but if I ever meet them face to face I will make sure to tell them exactly what I think of them.
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      I'm sorry what? If you even consider saying that code is like an existing project but not good, or implying that a piece of code is badly written, you're an asshole!? Don't you think you're taking this a bit far?
      - dos1 14y ago
        He didn't merely say the project "wasn't good", he implied it in a snarky, very unconstructive way. Here's his quote from twitter: >Ever wanted to make sed or grep worse? http://github.com/harthur/replace http://github.com/harthur/replace In the world I live in, that's called being an asshole. Look, I'm not saying these guys should apologize (in fact, if this is how they apologize it's probably best they don't), I'm simply stating that they're dicks. I know a lot of computer programmers just like them. Edit: And I hate working with people like them. I don't care how brilliant they are, programming is a team sport in most places. If you're a jerk I don't want you on my team, no matter how many awesome sed scripts you can whip up.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
alexhektor 14y ago
tl;dr: With great power comes great responsibility.
lxt 14y ago
"Then I see these people’s follower count, and I sob harder. I can’t help but think of potential future employers that are no longer potential." Speaking as a hiring manager, if I see people behaving like assholes on Twitter or mailing lists, those people go on my do-not-hire list. Yes, we are all assholes from time to time, but for some people it's a pattern of behavior. Those are not people you want to work with, no matter how smart they are.
- solox3 14y ago
  There's a fine line between being critics (constructive) and being assholes (destructive). When hiring, be sure to differentiate the two.
  - Kroem3r 14y ago
    My experience and belief is different: It's clear and obvious where the line is. People who provide constructive criticism in such a way that you can tolerate repeated critiques are strikingly different than people who are assholes under cover of providing constructive criticism.
    - m0wfo 14y ago
      And the most constructive criticism here would be a pull request :)
  - kyro 14y ago
    No, it is a very thick line. Save for a few situations where you might question whether what you said was misconstrued, people for the most part know when they're being civil or not. "I'm just a straightforward guy", "I tell it like it is", and "I don't want to sugarcoat" are ways people justify being an asshole by acting as if they've got your best interests at heart and genuinely want to help. They damn well know how mean they're being.
    - jgon 14y ago
      A great quote I once heard is that people who claim they are just being "brutally honest" seem to be motivated by the brutality more so than the honesty.
cscurmudgeon 14y ago
The open source community surrounding popular languages such as Ruby and to a lesser extent Python has some really obnoxious behavior. They look more like popular girls at a high school than serious programmers interested in sharing good things with the world and helping others. Also, people who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others. What is to prevent someone from going all Dijkstra on them? So be kind to others, it won't take much for someone much smarter than you to trample you. This is nothing but bullying and can have a serious affect on the bullied person's mental health.

doktrin 14y ago

Fair point. Once I read the names of those involved, I was a little taken aback for this very reason. Friends I respect think quite highly of Corey, for instance. Also worth noting, both [Steve and Corey] have published apologies on their own blogs. Both are worth reading.

darkxanthos 14y ago
Here's a link to that apology: http://programmingtour.blogspot.com/2013/01/im-sorry.html http://programmingtour.blogspot.com/2013/01/im-sorry.html I know Corey and don't really know too much about what happened here, so I'll only say he's one of the most positive and supportive people I know.
- ahi 14y ago
  -1 in my regard for being a jerk. +2 for a sincere apology. A reminder that owning up to a mistake can make that mistake go away and then some.
  - recycleme 14y ago
    People make mistakes all the time. If it's someone you know in person then you should probably give an apology (or vice-versa, depending on the situation). Someone has to own up because if it doesn't happen, you can end up with an ill workplace/relationship/whatever. But the internet can be a strange place. How do you apologize to strangers? With blogs? I mean, these pieces are going around being viewed by hundreds of people. Is it really helping? I'm not sure, but, at the very least, people are trying.
    - potatolicious 14y ago
      Email, Google+, Facebook, Twitter? There are many ways to apologize to someone without making a public spectacle of it.
    - eitland 14y ago
      There might be something like a rule of thumb that apologies should be as visible as the insult. If someone insult someone in a conversation, say sorry. If someone insult someone in front of their boss, go back and tell that you are honestly sorry. It hurts and it is why you think before you speak.
cachvico 14y ago
Here's the other apology, http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2013-01-23-node http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2013-01-23-node Heather, don't take it personally - your code is fine! JavaScript, on the other hand, is a wounded warrior by now..
- brazzy 14y ago
  My takeaway: "Twitter makes it so hard not to accidentally be an asshole."
  - timinman 14y ago
    It's certainly not Twitter's fault. Lately, the open source community's underbelly has been exposed. "But open source is right and we are the good guys?!", or... "But I know those guys and they are usually really cool!" We want to categorize people as being bad or good, and it messes with our brain when we think we may have to re-categorize. It's more useful to realize that we all have a capacity to do both good and harm. It's also more useful to judge ourselves than others. Recognizing the need to change is the beginning. I know that I need Outside help to maximize the good and minimize the bad that I am capable of.
    - brazzy 14y ago
      Yes, it's partially Twitter's fault. Enforced brevity in a popularity contest setting encourages smartassery and discourages (or makes impossible) nuanced expression.
      - anu_gupta 14y ago
        Twitter isn't coming up to anyone, twisting their arm and telling them to be a dick. Lots of people manage to use Twitter without coming across like assholes. If one feels that 140 characters isn't sufficient to correctly represent one's nuanced thoughts, then don't tweet.
        14y ago
huhtenberg 14y ago
How nice of them. Makes you wonder how many apologies are outstanding.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  Only one, from @zeeg.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - blatherard 14y ago
    Here's his non-apology http://justcramer.com/2013/01/24/being-wrong-on-the-internet/ http://justcramer.com/2013/01/24/being-wrong-on-the-internet...
- huhtenberg 14y ago
  To clarify - apologies to other people. There's no such thing as accidental one-off snobbery.
  - brazzy 14y ago
    Sure you're not falling victim to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error ?
    - huhtenberg 14y ago
      > I cannot even make this stuff up: <url> You are clearly well versed in this subject. So, how would you attribute this remark?
      - brazzy 14y ago
        Twitter; you don't have space for detailed (and possibly constructive) criticism, you substitute witticisms because that's what gets retweeted (i.e. what the environment rewards). Maybe you read another snarky tweet just before and want to one-up it. Maybe you just worked on some messy code and are a bit frustrated and this looked like the right place to vent. Off-hand snarkiness can be pretty mean, but that doesn't mean that everyone who engages in it is a fundamentally bad person; In fact I sincerely doubt anyone here has never written something similar.
nollidge 14y ago
Here's David Cramer's notpology: http://justcramer.com/2013/01/24/being-wrong-on-the-internet/ http://justcramer.com/2013/01/24/being-wrong-on-the-internet...
- dos1 14y ago
  Wow, David Cramer is a total asshole! That Steve Klabnik guy is also an asshole. The only one who doesn't appear to a complete dick is Corey Haines, whose apology was better. Not great, but better. Here's the thing - if you ever even consider saying things like this to someone on the internet, you're an asshole. It's not a one time accidental thing. Nope, it's in your personality. I hope I never meet either of these two individuals, but if I ever meet them face to face I will make sure to tell them exactly what I think of them.
  - Dylan16807 14y ago
    I'm sorry what? If you even consider saying that code is like an existing project but not good, or implying that a piece of code is badly written, you're an asshole!? Don't you think you're taking this a bit far?
    - dos1 14y ago
      He didn't merely say the project "wasn't good", he implied it in a snarky, very unconstructive way. Here's his quote from twitter: >Ever wanted to make sed or grep worse? http://github.com/harthur/replace http://github.com/harthur/replace In the world I live in, that's called being an asshole. Look, I'm not saying these guys should apologize (in fact, if this is how they apologize it's probably best they don't), I'm simply stating that they're dicks. I know a lot of computer programmers just like them. Edit: And I hate working with people like them. I don't care how brilliant they are, programming is a team sport in most places. If you're a jerk I don't want you on my team, no matter how many awesome sed scripts you can whip up.
      - Dylan16807 14y ago

alexhektor 14y ago

tl;dr: With great power comes great responsibility.

lxt 14y ago

"Then I see these people’s follower count, and I sob harder. I can’t help but think of potential future employers that are no longer potential." Speaking as a hiring manager, if I see people behaving like assholes on Twitter or mailing lists, those people go on my do-not-hire list. Yes, we are all assholes from time to time, but for some people it's a pattern of behavior. Those are not people you want to work with, no matter how smart they are.

solox3 14y ago
There's a fine line between being critics (constructive) and being assholes (destructive). When hiring, be sure to differentiate the two.
- Kroem3r 14y ago
  My experience and belief is different: It's clear and obvious where the line is. People who provide constructive criticism in such a way that you can tolerate repeated critiques are strikingly different than people who are assholes under cover of providing constructive criticism.
  - m0wfo 14y ago
    And the most constructive criticism here would be a pull request :)
- kyro 14y ago
  No, it is a very thick line. Save for a few situations where you might question whether what you said was misconstrued, people for the most part know when they're being civil or not. "I'm just a straightforward guy", "I tell it like it is", and "I don't want to sugarcoat" are ways people justify being an asshole by acting as if they've got your best interests at heart and genuinely want to help. They damn well know how mean they're being.
  - jgon 14y ago
    A great quote I once heard is that people who claim they are just being "brutally honest" seem to be motivated by the brutality more so than the honesty.

cscurmudgeon 14y ago

The open source community surrounding popular languages such as Ruby and to a lesser extent Python has some really obnoxious behavior. They look more like popular girls at a high school than serious programmers interested in sharing good things with the world and helping others. Also, people who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others. What is to prevent someone from going all Dijkstra on them? So be kind to others, it won't take much for someone much smarter than you to trample you. This is nothing but bullying and can have a serious affect on the bullied person's mental health.