6 ms·

We'll just put ads on

83 points by tzaman 14y ago

mcherm 14y ago
> If the answer involves advertising, think again, chances are it’s a poor business model. Now you might say that [insert your favourite startup here] did it and succeeded, but let me warn you, those are the exception to the rule. Perhaps. But the startup that succeeds is the exception to the rule, REGARDLESS of their model for making money. And I have seen quite a few that worried first about getting customers and only later about how to make a profit off them. It's not that making a profit is unimportant (it is incredibly important, and also very hard). It is that making something that is successful is ALSO incredibly important, and is even harder. If you can solve the harder problem (being successful), perhaps later you can solve the problem of being profitable also. If you can solve both from the start that's even better, but not everyone can do that.
- tzaman 14y ago
  Actually I have a post planned for the market fit as well - but yes, I mostly agree with you. But the problem arises when you try to fundraise (and many startups do) - then you'll have to have a very clear idea about making money. Based on my experience, it's pretty much the only thing investors care about.
- jeremyjh 14y ago
  I don't think you can just separate these two issues. If you do not monetize your solution it will often be more attractive and thus the traction you get will be misleading. For example, I'm sure I could make a very popular product by simply giving away terabytes of free storage and bandwidth exposed through a simple API and web interface. But that would do nothing but attract the kind of takers that would never pay for anything while it hemorrhages money.
  - bdcravens 14y ago
    If you do not monetize your solution it will often be more attractive and thus the traction you get will be misleading. Probably the wisest thing I've ever read on HN.
  - ahoyhere 14y ago
    YES. Thank you. If you hate drunken frat boys, don't open an Irish pub. Everything you do attracts a certain kind of person. Better do it deliberately, or you'll screw yourself.
- juan_juarez 14y ago
  From what I've seen, codeable.io's business model seems to be "get lots of blog posts on the HN front page".
petercooper 14y ago
This advice is reasonable for most types of startup though not particularly those in media where advertising is still a leading and viable form of monetization (principally because most media companies start from and focus on the question: how do we serve advertising efficiently and profitably? It's not a side project.) Slapping ads on a regular webapp will rarely yield much income without high amounts of traffic, but savvy media companies who can target and deliver high impact advertising aren't crazy to lean on it as their primary form of income (although diversifying into subscriptions and products ASAP is a good idea, nonetheless).
- orangethirty 14y ago
  (principally because most media companies start from and focus on the question: how do we serve advertising efficiently and profitably? It's not a side project.) That right there is why a lot of programmers these days fail tomake any money with advertising. They see it as an add-on, rather than the product itself. Advertising is the product.
  - ahi 14y ago
    The users are the product. Advertising is how you sell them. If you think about the advertising model as selling your users/visitors then the high volume required becomes more obvious. You don't sell an ad slot for $1k. You sell a user for a tenth of a penny.
ashray 14y ago
This post has a very naive understanding of online advertising. Here's a breakdown: - If you're thinking of advertising in terms of just slapping on some Google Adsense then you need high amounts (millions of users per month) of traffic to make reasonable money. - If you're thinking of specific kinds of targeted advertising, this can be very powerful depending on your niche. If you can hire a sales team to push advertising in those niches, you may be very successful, especially if you can show quality ROI to advertisers. eg. a cancer hospital advertising on a site with cancer related information. - If you're thinking of other kinds of advertising, business partnerships in terms of 'upsells' to a free product work really well too. The above is a gross generalization but claiming that 'advertising' is a broken business model is laughable. There are definitely certain use cases where online advertising can be your business model and of-course others where it would absolutely not work. The main downside of advertising supported business is that advertising can go in and out of demand, so you add an additional issue/unknown/risk in terms of product revenues. TLDR; most high traffic sites can make reasonable money from online advertising.
- tzaman 14y ago
  In my personal experience 90% of people with ideas think about advertising, when in reality, only 5% (I'm guesstimating) make serious money with it. Or maybe even less.
  - ashray 14y ago
    You're right, and the problem here is a naive understanding of advertising as a business model rather than it not being a good business model. I happened to go the opposite way. My first major project was an online advertising success. I naively applied my 'learning' to my 2nd project. That obviously didn't pan out. That led me to a better understanding of business models and how and where they may work. So I guess it can go both ways. Most people are only familiar with 'big names' like techcrunch, lifehacker, facebook, etc. which are very much advertising supported platforms. That's probably why they think 'advertising' is the answer even if they're not building a high traffic web app.
  - mistercow 14y ago
Swizec 14y ago
Advertising is a beautiful business model that can work very well. I mean, it's obviously working for a LOT of people. And very well. The only reason I don't want to do ad-supported products is because I believe in delivering value that users are willing to pay for. That's the kind of products I want to build. Simple as that. Something something, business and user interests aligned.
jdolitsky 14y ago
this is a great point made
uahal 14y ago
Fred Wilson covered the validity / opportunity / challenges associated with advertising as a business model in a recent post. The whole thing (and the comments) are informative but here's my high level summary; - Huge difference between ads that are sold (niche) vs ads that are bought (scale). - It takes millions of users a month to be successful at scale. It takes a great sales team to be successful in a niche. - The absence of scarcity in online and mobile advertising creates structural downward pressure on CPM. http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2012/12/mba-mondays-revenue-models-advertising.html http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2012/12/mba-mondays-revenue-models-a...
mbesto 14y ago
The most important thing when creating your business model is to understanding precisely who you're customer is. Often, someone creating an advertising thinks their customer is a the person viewing the page. In fact, this is just a sourcing effort.
wangthony 14y ago
for me, the main issue with ads as a business model: they make the product crappy facebook, twitter, yelp, blogs/content - the more you monetize, the more annoyed your users are there's an inherent tension between the success of the product and the success of the business, which is problematic especially as you scale the only significant exception is google
- matjazmuhic 14y ago
  I agree. There's a very fine line there.
- jordan_clark 14y ago
  The success of advertising in your app depends on how valuable a service you provide. As value increases, so does the viability of an ad based revenue model.
  - wangthony 14y ago
    agreed, but the more ads you cram into your app, the less valuable the service this is true for every app except google - therefore, your consumer internet ad-supported business model probably has an inherent flaw
nlh 14y ago
Leaving the merits of advertising itself aside for a bit, this post brings up a bigger topic that I think anyone running a startup needs to think about: When you're getting involved in a startup, it is incredibly important that you be honest with yourselves and your partners about what the goal really is (this is to the point made the other day about self-awareness) and what you're really building. A Feature: A piece of a piece of a puzzle. "It's like Facebook's News Feed, but instead you get audio updates instead of text updates!". Hackers can be guilty of this often - focused obsession on improving the world (or a piece of it) by tackling even the smallest problems. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not necessarily a guarantee of success. A Product: Instagram is a product. It's full-featured, it's beloved (or was ;), it's free-standing, it works, and people use it. But do people pay for it? Would they? Would they make money by themselves or only in the context of a bigger company (like Facebook). Twitter is also a product, along these lines. A Business: 37signals is a business. People pay them to use their products. They are free-standing, they are profitable, and they don't _need_ outside investors (need vs. want is different, btw - sometimes it makes sense to take strategic investment). There's nothing inherently wrong with any of the above paths, btw. But you need to understand which path you're on, because you'll do a better job of it that way. If you decide to be on the feature/product path and hope to get acquired/acqui-hired, that's fine - it's a legitimate approach (that works, at least for now) and folks have made $billions doing it (see: Instagram & everyone else). But it's a different path than starting a business. Goals are different, operations are different, and outcome is different. The point, in the end, is that often the response - "well, I guess we'll sell ads" is what people who are starting features or products often say to convince themselves or others that they're on a worthwhile _business_ endeavor. And that's often dishonest (intentional or not). Understand the path you're on and I'm willing to bet success will be more likely.
- timjahn 14y ago
  +1. Love this explanation!
- ggordan 14y ago
  Thanks for the advice, it makes sense. However shouldn't the choice be between a feature and a product as they could develop into a business? You can't just make a business like a product, it takes time. A feature/product evolves into a business since no one can be profitable from launch day.
so898 14y ago
FXXK ads. Ads will give no money to you!!! Nowadays, a 3 years old child knows how to use Adblock to block ads. People do not care about how beautiful your ads are, they just want a free website without ads. If your website or application could not sell itself, just give it up. Ads really do not help.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
josh2600 14y ago
Funny story that will probably get buried since I'm 2 hours late to this thread: When we were first working on Kazoo we had thought our monetization would come from a service we called "promo calling". Basically we would detect the caller ID of where you were calling and place an ad for a competitor on your phone display with a coupon and a call to action of rerouting your call to the alternate vendor. It just pissed people off. We ultimately settled on a premium SaaS model but my point is this: try lots of stuff. A lot of it will fail, but failure is simply invalidating one incorrect hypothesis. Try lots, fail fast if you're wrong and roll to something else. The key for us is that our core values didn't change. We still want to build amazing telecom systems, it just took us a while before people would pay for them. Disclaimer: I am the community manager for http://2600hz.com http://2600hz.com
joeblau 14y ago
Another issue cropping up is eyeballs moving from desktops to mobile devices. The CPM for mobile is significantly lower than desktop which puts more financial constraints on a company that is only ad powered. These are real pressures affecting $FB and $GOOG right now. Based on KPCB (1) research, CPM for desktop is $3.50 and for mobile it's $0.75. [1] - http://www.slideshare.net/kleinerperkins/kpcb-internet-trends-2012 http://www.slideshare.net/kleinerperkins/kpcb-internet-trend...
ceworthington 14y ago
This post is right on, but it's kind of telling that a post where the TL/DR is "Your business idea is not good unless it makes money" can make it this high on Hacker News.
arthurquerou 14y ago
What you say is both very true and very false, it depends a lot on the product. Advertising can be an amazing way to get money and sometimes, even if you could directly sell to your users, advertising can perform WAY better. The real important factor to decide wether you should put ads or not is "will I probably get a few paying customers or just a lot of users ?". Advertising is all about the volume, the bigger it is, the more money you'll make and a good relationship with your advertisers can lead to really good revenues and a real business model. When we launched our first product with my company, our only competitor was a paid app. We thought "f* it, we'll make it free!". We now have 600k monthly active users and make way much more than our competitor. So maybe not every business should "sell". With social media &cie, it's starting to be really easy to get a lot of users and ads can be an amazing way to monetize it !
ballard 14y ago
Why was this guy listening to an audience to begin with? People don't know what they want, and that's entirely different from what they will actually pay for. The only measure is the cash register, i.e., the reconciliation report from the credit card processor(s). Make something awesome that clearly takes away more pain than the price incurs, more cheaply than you can produce it. If you can't make it awesome or profitable, then it's not a business.

83 points by tzaman 14y ago

> If the answer involves advertising, think again, chances are it’s a poor business model. Now you might say that [insert your favourite startup here] did it and succeeded, but let me warn you, those are the exception to the rule. Perhaps. But the startup that succeeds is the exception to the rule, REGARDLESS of their model for making money. And I have seen quite a few that worried first about getting customers and only later about how to make a profit off them. It's not that making a profit is unimportant (it is incredibly important, and also very hard). It is that making something that is successful is ALSO incredibly important, and is even harder. If you can solve the harder problem (being successful), perhaps later you can solve the problem of being profitable also. If you can solve both from the start that's even better, but not everyone can do that.

tzaman 14y ago
Actually I have a post planned for the market fit as well - but yes, I mostly agree with you. But the problem arises when you try to fundraise (and many startups do) - then you'll have to have a very clear idea about making money. Based on my experience, it's pretty much the only thing investors care about.
jeremyjh 14y ago
I don't think you can just separate these two issues. If you do not monetize your solution it will often be more attractive and thus the traction you get will be misleading. For example, I'm sure I could make a very popular product by simply giving away terabytes of free storage and bandwidth exposed through a simple API and web interface. But that would do nothing but attract the kind of takers that would never pay for anything while it hemorrhages money.
- bdcravens 14y ago
  If you do not monetize your solution it will often be more attractive and thus the traction you get will be misleading. Probably the wisest thing I've ever read on HN.
- ahoyhere 14y ago
  YES. Thank you. If you hate drunken frat boys, don't open an Irish pub. Everything you do attracts a certain kind of person. Better do it deliberately, or you'll screw yourself.
juan_juarez 14y ago
From what I've seen, codeable.io's business model seems to be "get lots of blog posts on the HN front page".

petercooper 14y ago

This advice is reasonable for most types of startup though not particularly those in media where advertising is still a leading and viable form of monetization (principally because most media companies start from and focus on the question: how do we serve advertising efficiently and profitably? It's not a side project.) Slapping ads on a regular webapp will rarely yield much income without high amounts of traffic, but savvy media companies who can target and deliver high impact advertising aren't crazy to lean on it as their primary form of income (although diversifying into subscriptions and products ASAP is a good idea, nonetheless).

orangethirty 14y ago
(principally because most media companies start from and focus on the question: how do we serve advertising efficiently and profitably? It's not a side project.) That right there is why a lot of programmers these days fail tomake any money with advertising. They see it as an add-on, rather than the product itself. Advertising is the product.
- ahi 14y ago
  The users are the product. Advertising is how you sell them. If you think about the advertising model as selling your users/visitors then the high volume required becomes more obvious. You don't sell an ad slot for $1k. You sell a user for a tenth of a penny.

ashray 14y ago

This post has a very naive understanding of online advertising. Here's a breakdown: - If you're thinking of advertising in terms of just slapping on some Google Adsense then you need high amounts (millions of users per month) of traffic to make reasonable money. - If you're thinking of specific kinds of targeted advertising, this can be very powerful depending on your niche. If you can hire a sales team to push advertising in those niches, you may be very successful, especially if you can show quality ROI to advertisers. eg. a cancer hospital advertising on a site with cancer related information. - If you're thinking of other kinds of advertising, business partnerships in terms of 'upsells' to a free product work really well too. The above is a gross generalization but claiming that 'advertising' is a broken business model is laughable. There are definitely certain use cases where online advertising can be your business model and of-course others where it would absolutely not work. The main downside of advertising supported business is that advertising can go in and out of demand, so you add an additional issue/unknown/risk in terms of product revenues. TLDR; most high traffic sites can make reasonable money from online advertising.

tzaman 14y ago
In my personal experience 90% of people with ideas think about advertising, when in reality, only 5% (I'm guesstimating) make serious money with it. Or maybe even less.
- ashray 14y ago
  You're right, and the problem here is a naive understanding of advertising as a business model rather than it not being a good business model. I happened to go the opposite way. My first major project was an online advertising success. I naively applied my 'learning' to my 2nd project. That obviously didn't pan out. That led me to a better understanding of business models and how and where they may work. So I guess it can go both ways. Most people are only familiar with 'big names' like techcrunch, lifehacker, facebook, etc. which are very much advertising supported platforms. That's probably why they think 'advertising' is the answer even if they're not building a high traffic web app.
- mistercow 14y ago

Swizec 14y ago

Advertising is a beautiful business model that can work very well. I mean, it's obviously working for a LOT of people. And very well. The only reason I don't want to do ad-supported products is because I believe in delivering value that users are willing to pay for. That's the kind of products I want to build. Simple as that. Something something, business and user interests aligned.

jdolitsky 14y ago

this is a great point made

uahal 14y ago

Fred Wilson covered the validity / opportunity / challenges associated with advertising as a business model in a recent post. The whole thing (and the comments) are informative but here's my high level summary; - Huge difference between ads that are sold (niche) vs ads that are bought (scale). - It takes millions of users a month to be successful at scale. It takes a great sales team to be successful in a niche. - The absence of scarcity in online and mobile advertising creates structural downward pressure on CPM. http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2012/12/mba-mondays-revenue-models-advertising.html http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2012/12/mba-mondays-revenue-models-a...

mbesto 14y ago

The most important thing when creating your business model is to understanding precisely who you're customer is. Often, someone creating an advertising thinks their customer is a the person viewing the page. In fact, this is just a sourcing effort.

wangthony 14y ago

for me, the main issue with ads as a business model: they make the product crappy facebook, twitter, yelp, blogs/content - the more you monetize, the more annoyed your users are there's an inherent tension between the success of the product and the success of the business, which is problematic especially as you scale the only significant exception is google

matjazmuhic 14y ago
I agree. There's a very fine line there.
jordan_clark 14y ago
The success of advertising in your app depends on how valuable a service you provide. As value increases, so does the viability of an ad based revenue model.
- wangthony 14y ago
  agreed, but the more ads you cram into your app, the less valuable the service this is true for every app except google - therefore, your consumer internet ad-supported business model probably has an inherent flaw

nlh 14y ago

Leaving the merits of advertising itself aside for a bit, this post brings up a bigger topic that I think anyone running a startup needs to think about: When you're getting involved in a startup, it is incredibly important that you be honest with yourselves and your partners about what the goal really is (this is to the point made the other day about self-awareness) and what you're really building. A Feature: A piece of a piece of a puzzle. "It's like Facebook's News Feed, but instead you get audio updates instead of text updates!". Hackers can be guilty of this often - focused obsession on improving the world (or a piece of it) by tackling even the smallest problems. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not necessarily a guarantee of success. A Product: Instagram is a product. It's full-featured, it's beloved (or was ;), it's free-standing, it works, and people use it. But do people pay for it? Would they? Would they make money by themselves or only in the context of a bigger company (like Facebook). Twitter is also a product, along these lines. A Business: 37signals is a business. People pay them to use their products. They are free-standing, they are profitable, and they don't _need_ outside investors (need vs. want is different, btw - sometimes it makes sense to take strategic investment). There's nothing inherently wrong with any of the above paths, btw. But you need to understand which path you're on, because you'll do a better job of it that way. If you decide to be on the feature/product path and hope to get acquired/acqui-hired, that's fine - it's a legitimate approach (that works, at least for now) and folks have made $billions doing it (see: Instagram & everyone else). But it's a different path than starting a business. Goals are different, operations are different, and outcome is different. The point, in the end, is that often the response - "well, I guess we'll sell ads" is what people who are starting features or products often say to convince themselves or others that they're on a worthwhile _business_ endeavor. And that's often dishonest (intentional or not). Understand the path you're on and I'm willing to bet success will be more likely.

timjahn 14y ago
+1. Love this explanation!
ggordan 14y ago
Thanks for the advice, it makes sense. However shouldn't the choice be between a feature and a product as they could develop into a business? You can't just make a business like a product, it takes time. A feature/product evolves into a business since no one can be profitable from launch day.

so898 14y ago

FXXK ads. Ads will give no money to you!!! Nowadays, a 3 years old child knows how to use Adblock to block ads. People do not care about how beautiful your ads are, they just want a free website without ads. If your website or application could not sell itself, just give it up. Ads really do not help.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

josh2600 14y ago

Funny story that will probably get buried since I'm 2 hours late to this thread: When we were first working on Kazoo we had thought our monetization would come from a service we called "promo calling". Basically we would detect the caller ID of where you were calling and place an ad for a competitor on your phone display with a coupon and a call to action of rerouting your call to the alternate vendor. It just pissed people off. We ultimately settled on a premium SaaS model but my point is this: try lots of stuff. A lot of it will fail, but failure is simply invalidating one incorrect hypothesis. Try lots, fail fast if you're wrong and roll to something else. The key for us is that our core values didn't change. We still want to build amazing telecom systems, it just took us a while before people would pay for them. Disclaimer: I am the community manager for http://2600hz.com http://2600hz.com

joeblau 14y ago

Another issue cropping up is eyeballs moving from desktops to mobile devices. The CPM for mobile is significantly lower than desktop which puts more financial constraints on a company that is only ad powered. These are real pressures affecting $FB and $GOOG right now. Based on KPCB (1) research, CPM for desktop is $3.50 and for mobile it's $0.75. [1] - http://www.slideshare.net/kleinerperkins/kpcb-internet-trends-2012 http://www.slideshare.net/kleinerperkins/kpcb-internet-trend...

ceworthington 14y ago

This post is right on, but it's kind of telling that a post where the TL/DR is "Your business idea is not good unless it makes money" can make it this high on Hacker News.

arthurquerou 14y ago

What you say is both very true and very false, it depends a lot on the product. Advertising can be an amazing way to get money and sometimes, even if you could directly sell to your users, advertising can perform WAY better. The real important factor to decide wether you should put ads or not is "will I probably get a few paying customers or just a lot of users ?". Advertising is all about the volume, the bigger it is, the more money you'll make and a good relationship with your advertisers can lead to really good revenues and a real business model. When we launched our first product with my company, our only competitor was a paid app. We thought "f* it, we'll make it free!". We now have 600k monthly active users and make way much more than our competitor. So maybe not every business should "sell". With social media &cie, it's starting to be really easy to get a lot of users and ads can be an amazing way to monetize it !

ballard 14y ago

Why was this guy listening to an audience to begin with? People don't know what they want, and that's entirely different from what they will actually pay for. The only measure is the cash register, i.e., the reconciliation report from the credit card processor(s). Make something awesome that clearly takes away more pain than the price incurs, more cheaply than you can produce it. If you can't make it awesome or profitable, then it's not a business.