8 ms·

I dunno, 1. and 2. seem like a cop out to me. When crappy freeware Windows installers provide a checkbox (checked by default, of course) to opt out of Bonzai Bu

by notJim 14y ago

I dunno, 1. and 2. seem like a cop out to me. When crappy freeware Windows installers provide a checkbox (checked by default, of course) to opt out of Bonzai Buddy or a million Ask.com toolbars or some bullshit malware scanner, they are still shitty and sketchy, and it's disappointing to me to know that YC is now behind a company that makes such software. And saying this crapware is popular does little to assuage my concerns. If users are "choosing" to install these things, it's unclear to me how informed or aware of a choice they're making. I bet successful viruses and worms are also popular by this metric. By the way, here's an example of what we're talking about: http://imgur.com/8SGXUPP http://imgur.com/8SGXUPP. Oracle bundles the ask toolbar with Java installs now. This is the default state, i.e., the box is default-checked. Why, users love the ask toolbar, they probably have a 95% install rate!

tylermauthe 14y ago
haha! Good point about the ask toolbar! Didn't think of that...
jiggy2011 14y ago
Exactly, I always feel these "choices" are like being sold an extended warranty. It's presented as a choice but is "strongly recommended", non tech savvy users are likely not sure what "recommended" means in this context. Does it mean that the software might break my computer without it? Does it stop me getting a virus? Anybody who consciously decides that they want the ask toolbar on their computer can find the standalone download here: http://sp.ask.com/toolbar/install/apnasktoolbar/download.php http://sp.ask.com/toolbar/install/apnasktoolbar/download.php
- niggler 14y ago
  The game is to get those people who aren't tech savvy, and PG knows and actively supports it. There literally is no way to do what IM is trying to do without somehow engaging in questionable behavior (reminiscent of Facebook in many ways)
  - ericd 14y ago
    Don't make libelous public accusations of PG if you don't know anything about the situation.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      I think some of us are finding it difficult to draw other conclusions.
    - walshemj 14y ago
      Well as in life its the "perception" of a thing, can be more powerful than the actuality.
    - EwanToo 14y ago
      Unless the parent comment has been edited, I'm not sure what you think is libelous about it? It's certainly a questionable company, they either didn't bother to scan for open source software being rebundled, or deliberately chose not to scan, because they knew the result would be bad.
      - ericd 14y ago
        It looks like niggler edited his comment, but he's still saying that PG is an active proponent of this. YC companies are completely independent, and you really can't assign any blame to him for what one of YC's hundreds of portfolio companies do.
        moe 14y ago
        PG accepted them into YC, funds them and defends them in public. If that's not an "active proponent" then I wonder how you define that term?
        niggler 14y ago
        Comment was not edited. It looks like you viscerally reacted to a comment suggesting PG isn't a deity.
- thaumaturgy 14y ago
  It's worse than that, actually. Experienced computer users interact with a computer in a completely different way from inexperienced ones; at some point, experienced users develop the ability to do some kind of fast cognitive relevance filter on the screen, so they know which UI elements they can interact with, which ones might be important, which ones aren't, and so on. Less experienced users can't do that -- they have to read every single word on the screen and make a decision about it. They mitigate this by memorizing specific actions. i.e., "to send an email, first I click in this area, then I click on the blue thing, then I click in that area..." (which is why constantly changing UI is such a problem for them, btw). So what do they do with installers like this one? They just click "Next" with all the defaults on. The text on a screen like this is no different to them than the text of the EULA that none of us read.
  - shocks 14y ago
    Completely agreed. Amongst my non-computer literate friends, many of them adopt the "click next quickly until the install starts or it stops working" tactic.
    - rsl7 14y ago
      Yes, the install dialogs might as well be a series of screens of lorem ipsum with buttons labeled WHATEVER
sbov 14y ago
Why don't you include examples of IM misbehaving rather than other companies you're trying to associate with them? The other post about this was full of this and it's crap.
- Aaronontheweb 14y ago
  The example of Babylon translator being bundled via IM in the previous thread was specific to IM, as was the input from anti-malware companies who had targeted IM's products specifically.
bjxrn 14y ago
Definitely. I find it hard to find any reason why something like Babylon (one of the things I remember that IM might install) should not be called "crapware" or malware. Babylon hijacks your browser and then becomes practically unremovable (it can be removed but the people savvy enough to remove it are the ones savvy enough to never install it). If users like this software so much then why do the creators of this software have to work so hard to make it next to impossible to remove? Who would want to get rid of software they love?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
chadscira 14y ago
I ran into this one recently at work we couldn't figure out how our testing machine got "infected" with all of the ask toolbar defaults... Eventually we traced it back to the default install options for java. A lot of software depends on java, so all of these users get asked to install java, and end up infected with ask's toolbar.. It's pretty sad that legitimate software is selling out like this.

by notJim 14y ago

tylermauthe 14y ago

haha! Good point about the ask toolbar! Didn't think of that...

jiggy2011 14y ago

Exactly, I always feel these "choices" are like being sold an extended warranty. It's presented as a choice but is "strongly recommended", non tech savvy users are likely not sure what "recommended" means in this context. Does it mean that the software might break my computer without it? Does it stop me getting a virus? Anybody who consciously decides that they want the ask toolbar on their computer can find the standalone download here: http://sp.ask.com/toolbar/install/apnasktoolbar/download.php http://sp.ask.com/toolbar/install/apnasktoolbar/download.php

niggler 14y ago
The game is to get those people who aren't tech savvy, and PG knows and actively supports it. There literally is no way to do what IM is trying to do without somehow engaging in questionable behavior (reminiscent of Facebook in many ways)
- ericd 14y ago
  Don't make libelous public accusations of PG if you don't know anything about the situation.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    I think some of us are finding it difficult to draw other conclusions.
  - walshemj 14y ago
    Well as in life its the "perception" of a thing, can be more powerful than the actuality.
  - EwanToo 14y ago
    Unless the parent comment has been edited, I'm not sure what you think is libelous about it? It's certainly a questionable company, they either didn't bother to scan for open source software being rebundled, or deliberately chose not to scan, because they knew the result would be bad.
    - ericd 14y ago
      It looks like niggler edited his comment, but he's still saying that PG is an active proponent of this. YC companies are completely independent, and you really can't assign any blame to him for what one of YC's hundreds of portfolio companies do.
      - moe 14y ago
        PG accepted them into YC, funds them and defends them in public. If that's not an "active proponent" then I wonder how you define that term?
      - niggler 14y ago
        Comment was not edited. It looks like you viscerally reacted to a comment suggesting PG isn't a deity.
thaumaturgy 14y ago
It's worse than that, actually. Experienced computer users interact with a computer in a completely different way from inexperienced ones; at some point, experienced users develop the ability to do some kind of fast cognitive relevance filter on the screen, so they know which UI elements they can interact with, which ones might be important, which ones aren't, and so on. Less experienced users can't do that -- they have to read every single word on the screen and make a decision about it. They mitigate this by memorizing specific actions. i.e., "to send an email, first I click in this area, then I click on the blue thing, then I click in that area..." (which is why constantly changing UI is such a problem for them, btw). So what do they do with installers like this one? They just click "Next" with all the defaults on. The text on a screen like this is no different to them than the text of the EULA that none of us read.
- shocks 14y ago
  Completely agreed. Amongst my non-computer literate friends, many of them adopt the "click next quickly until the install starts or it stops working" tactic.
  - rsl7 14y ago
    Yes, the install dialogs might as well be a series of screens of lorem ipsum with buttons labeled WHATEVER

sbov 14y ago

Why don't you include examples of IM misbehaving rather than other companies you're trying to associate with them? The other post about this was full of this and it's crap.

Aaronontheweb 14y ago
The example of Babylon translator being bundled via IM in the previous thread was specific to IM, as was the input from anti-malware companies who had targeted IM's products specifically.

bjxrn 14y ago

Definitely. I find it hard to find any reason why something like Babylon (one of the things I remember that IM might install) should not be called "crapware" or malware. Babylon hijacks your browser and then becomes practically unremovable (it can be removed but the people savvy enough to remove it are the ones savvy enough to never install it). If users like this software so much then why do the creators of this software have to work so hard to make it next to impossible to remove? Who would want to get rid of software they love?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

chadscira 14y ago

I ran into this one recently at work we couldn't figure out how our testing machine got "infected" with all of the ask toolbar defaults... Eventually we traced it back to the default install options for java. A lot of software depends on java, so all of these users get asked to install java, and end up infected with ask's toolbar.. It's pretty sad that legitimate software is selling out like this.