6 ms·

I think people will be wondering if this resembles the founders' ideas when they were funded by you, and if this represents the kind of company you wish to be f

by SandB0x 14y ago

I think people will be wondering if this resembles the founders' ideas when they were funded by you, and if this represents the kind of company you wish to be funding. You may of course defend the product on technical grounds (accept buttons, EULAs, etc) but I find it hard to believe that you truly think it is anything but a nuisance to end-users.

swampthing 14y ago
Just because you or I might find something to be a nuisance, doesn't mean most end-users will. Done right, I can easily see unsophisticated end-users being appreciative at being offered useful software that they would otherwise have not known about. I see this crap on my mom's computer all the time - she's bothered by it only if it affects performance or pops up with some message. If it's just sitting there, or if she actually uses it, she couldn't care less how it got there.
- watty 14y ago
  Do you really think "most end-users" prefer the stuff that IM installs? Come on.
  - swampthing 14y ago
    "Prefer" is a higher bar than "don't care" / "not a nuisance". I don't know what IM installs - but I see Norton on their webpage. I can easily see "most end-users" installing something, seeing the opportunity to install Norton Anti-Virus, and thinking to themselves "oh yea, that sounds like that'd be useful". Just about everybody on HN is extremely technically savvy - we can't assume that our computing preferences are shared by "most end-users". Note that I am just responding to the assertion that "it['s] hard to believe that [PG] truly think[s] it is anything but a nuisance to end-users".
    - TeMPOraL 14y ago
      Of what value to users can be a piece of software that they never heard of, don't know what it does and don't feel a need for it? Were they having a problem they wanted solved, they'd intentionally look for the software. > we can't assume that our computing preferences are shared by "most end-users". Those are still anecdotes, but I think most of us actually can say this or that about end-users preferences, after countless of hours spent on cleaning their computers. I for one think that calling it "nuisance" is a massive understatement.
      - chii 14y ago
        if you ask these non-technical end users whether they rather have the free software that comes with some crapware, or have to purchase a paid version (of the same software), i think you would find most would choose the free version. While i dislike the idea of crapware, if it funds useful pieces of software, perhaps its a nuisance that could be tolerated.
    - SyneRyder 14y ago
      Norton is not a current advertiser (neither is Bing or Real), assuming Withinrafael is correct about how the Offer Screens are gathered. See his post about how to download & view the offer screens here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5086435 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5086435 Quoting Rafael: "You'll find they only have 42 current advertisers... and not Norton/others listed on the site."
pg 14y ago
They're working on something new, and all the office hours I had with them were about that. They're not even in our database of companies as InstallMonetizer but as the new thing. (I'm not sure if I can say the name because it may not be launched yet.) I knew they had some previous product that was called a Windows installer, but I don't think we ever talked about what it did. The whole world of Windows software seems pretty grim, and when people get something for free or cheap they're often willing to click through a bunch of buttons to get it, but as far as I can tell IM isn't actually misleading anyone. E.g. as far as I can tell it's no worse than all the upsells people have to click through to register domains on GoDaddy.
- SandB0x 14y ago
  Fair enough. It does come across on http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php that the product is funded/endorsed by Y Combinator though.
- kruipen 14y ago
  I think this clarifies the whole thing: pg doesn't mind that much making Windows ecosystem a bit shittier. Not doing it purposefully, but also not feeling too bad if that is a side effect. Edit: spelling
- darknoon 14y ago
  Thanks for the update, pg. I'm glad they're looking at a different avenue. While we can debate the particulars about whether or not certain windows installer ride-alongs or all of them are scammy, I don't think it's a valuable business. Comparing to GoDaddy doesn't make it sound better via association. Hope to see something more awesome from these folks soon.
- jessedhillon 14y ago
  You're a much more patient and understanding person than I am, pg. My initial reaction to pretty much every comment here is "Peanut gallery -- start your own incubator, or just accomplish one noteworthy thing in your life." As a non-pg entity, I feel vicarious indignation. Who are these random nobodies who think they're entitled to question how/where you spend your time and effort? And the people who get up on their soapbox about the ethics of YC or how you've tacitly endorsed deceptive practices? Ugh... eff the eff off EDIT: to head off the obvious criticism, yes I do think there are legitimate questions about IM's business model. My point is: show some humility and circumspection when asking them. Unless you've had to earn $1 directly from a customer (no boss managing and organizing your work) you're an outsider looking in at a completely different universe. Act accordingly.

by SandB0x 14y ago

swampthing 14y ago

Just because you or I might find something to be a nuisance, doesn't mean most end-users will. Done right, I can easily see unsophisticated end-users being appreciative at being offered useful software that they would otherwise have not known about. I see this crap on my mom's computer all the time - she's bothered by it only if it affects performance or pops up with some message. If it's just sitting there, or if she actually uses it, she couldn't care less how it got there.

watty 14y ago
Do you really think "most end-users" prefer the stuff that IM installs? Come on.
- swampthing 14y ago
  "Prefer" is a higher bar than "don't care" / "not a nuisance". I don't know what IM installs - but I see Norton on their webpage. I can easily see "most end-users" installing something, seeing the opportunity to install Norton Anti-Virus, and thinking to themselves "oh yea, that sounds like that'd be useful". Just about everybody on HN is extremely technically savvy - we can't assume that our computing preferences are shared by "most end-users". Note that I am just responding to the assertion that "it['s] hard to believe that [PG] truly think[s] it is anything but a nuisance to end-users".
  - TeMPOraL 14y ago
    Of what value to users can be a piece of software that they never heard of, don't know what it does and don't feel a need for it? Were they having a problem they wanted solved, they'd intentionally look for the software. > we can't assume that our computing preferences are shared by "most end-users". Those are still anecdotes, but I think most of us actually can say this or that about end-users preferences, after countless of hours spent on cleaning their computers. I for one think that calling it "nuisance" is a massive understatement.
    - chii 14y ago
      if you ask these non-technical end users whether they rather have the free software that comes with some crapware, or have to purchase a paid version (of the same software), i think you would find most would choose the free version. While i dislike the idea of crapware, if it funds useful pieces of software, perhaps its a nuisance that could be tolerated.
  - SyneRyder 14y ago
    Norton is not a current advertiser (neither is Bing or Real), assuming Withinrafael is correct about how the Offer Screens are gathered. See his post about how to download & view the offer screens here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5086435 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5086435 Quoting Rafael: "You'll find they only have 42 current advertisers... and not Norton/others listed on the site."

pg 14y ago

They're working on something new, and all the office hours I had with them were about that. They're not even in our database of companies as InstallMonetizer but as the new thing. (I'm not sure if I can say the name because it may not be launched yet.) I knew they had some previous product that was called a Windows installer, but I don't think we ever talked about what it did. The whole world of Windows software seems pretty grim, and when people get something for free or cheap they're often willing to click through a bunch of buttons to get it, but as far as I can tell IM isn't actually misleading anyone. E.g. as far as I can tell it's no worse than all the upsells people have to click through to register domains on GoDaddy.

SandB0x 14y ago
Fair enough. It does come across on http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php that the product is funded/endorsed by Y Combinator though.
kruipen 14y ago
I think this clarifies the whole thing: pg doesn't mind that much making Windows ecosystem a bit shittier. Not doing it purposefully, but also not feeling too bad if that is a side effect. Edit: spelling
darknoon 14y ago
Thanks for the update, pg. I'm glad they're looking at a different avenue. While we can debate the particulars about whether or not certain windows installer ride-alongs or all of them are scammy, I don't think it's a valuable business. Comparing to GoDaddy doesn't make it sound better via association. Hope to see something more awesome from these folks soon.
jessedhillon 14y ago
You're a much more patient and understanding person than I am, pg. My initial reaction to pretty much every comment here is "Peanut gallery -- start your own incubator, or just accomplish one noteworthy thing in your life." As a non-pg entity, I feel vicarious indignation. Who are these random nobodies who think they're entitled to question how/where you spend your time and effort? And the people who get up on their soapbox about the ethics of YC or how you've tacitly endorsed deceptive practices? Ugh... eff the eff off EDIT: to head off the obvious criticism, yes I do think there are legitimate questions about IM's business model. My point is: show some humility and circumspection when asking them. Unless you've had to earn $1 directly from a customer (no boss managing and organizing your work) you're an outsider looking in at a completely different universe. Act accordingly.