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Dire poverty is self-inflicted. Corrupt, heavy-handed governments, pursuing illogical economic policies or deliberate starvation of opposition tribes. You cou

Dire poverty is self-inflicted. Corrupt, heavy-handed governments, pursuing illogical economic policies or deliberate starvation of opposition tribes. You could write that check tomorrow and the day after, Zimbabwe or North Korea or Somalia or even India would be the same. There are places in the world where the locals are killing people for offering the polio vaccine to children. Further, global poverty is actually in decline around the world. http://www.economist.com/node/21548963 http://www.economist.com/node/21548963

rdl 14y ago
I wouldn't call it "self" inflicted, but inflicted by people, yes. The poor 3 year old child who grows up in a slum isn't the one responsible.
pretoriusB 14y ago
>Dire poverty is self-inflicted. Self-inflicted? That is a bullshit western justification. Those poor peoples have been milked to extinction by colonial overlords and left do die. Not to mention that their very countries were designed and drawn on the map by colonial powers, like dividing loot, with no respect to local populations and tensions (or with full intent to exploit them, in a "divide and conquer" move). Or that even today the governments of those countries are appointed and remotely controlled by western powers, with everything from under the table deals to open military support for their cronies. Calling poverty in those places "self-inflicted" is like saying a raped woman "deserved it".
- raverbashing 14y ago
  "Calling poverty in those places "self-inflicted" is like saying a raped woman "deserved it"" No, absolutely not. And it is self-inflicted, "colonialist BS" aside (there are colonial issues, of course) Religion and ignorance go a long way. You can't throw money to the problem Things may seem nice and it's easy to blame 'colonial overlords' from the armchair or from the sociology departments of universities. Very Easy. Now try teaching people about safe sex and AIDS. Try teaching people about the importance of an education. There's one way to get a proper government and that's EARNING IT. Oh by the way I come from one of those "milked" countries (not to extinction and certainly not much recently) so I know what "self inflicting" means.
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    >Religion and ignorance go a long way. You can't throw money to the problem Those places have been far more tolerant before they had colonial overlords and post-colonial interventions. Islam in particular was nowhere as strict and even more progressive that the feudal European populations of the time (and developed math, poetry, etc). (And it's not like the Bible Belt for example is a paradigm in the case of "religion and ignorance"). >Now try teaching people about safe sex and AIDS. Try teaching people about the importance of an education. You cannot teach them in abstract. You have to build the foundations to teach them. And all the foundations that we took for granted in the western world have been either destroyed or not developed in the past in those countries. Note also that when people say "try teaching people about the importance of an education", they mostly mean: try teaching people about WESTERN style education and western work ethic / values, etc. So a tribe in Africa that lived perfectly fine in a relative balance, Amish style, for millennia, has the modern world (in the form of the colonial and post-colonial powers) invade in it's culture, their farmland or hunting places destroyed etc, and they are left to adapt to this new context or die. So they have to be "educated" to get some mind-numbing soul-crushing job as a factory worker, reject their culture, etc. The same thing happens in Latin American tribes. We adapted to the modern world by choice and by developing it (and over centuries at that). They are FORCED to "adapt to it or die, pronto". It's not at all the same.
    - Turing_Machine 14y ago
      "So a tribe in Africa that lived perfectly fine in a relative balance, Amish style...The same thing happens in Latin American tribes." Shaka Zulu? Mali Empire? The Aztecs? The Inca? ? Not really much like the Amish.
    - raverbashing 14y ago
      Yes, I agree with the religious point. "And all the foundations that we took for granted in the western world have been either destroyed or not developed in the past in those countries." I agree with this. But "try teaching people about WESTERN style education and western work ethic / values, etc." Yes, cultural relativism only goes so far. But one could try teaching them japanese values as well, it would be good. A society can only progress with certain values and rules, and what we call "western civilization" is pretty much that, otherwise, we would be maybe talking about tribes in Europe being conquered by who knows (not that tribes in Europe didn't exist). But of course, as you said, it needs a foundation, and this took a long time even in the case of Europe. "So a tribe in Africa that lived perfectly fine in a relative balance... and they are left to adapt to this new context or die." This has happened how many times in world history again? Oh and "relative balance" may be an exaggeration. Old "innocent" tribes could and have destroyed their habitat. Example: Easter Island. That also happens in South American tribes. "We adapted to the modern world by choice and by developing it (and over centuries at that). They are FORCED to "adapt to it or die, pronto". It's not at all the same." I agree. But see, several countries are already adapting. Angola for example.
- adventured 14y ago
  "Those poor peoples have been milked to extinction by colonial overlords and left do die." That's bullshit anti-Western propaganda. Those "poor peoples" as you call them are responsible for their own fates, just as all of us are, no matter the situation we're born into. Pity won't save them, and neither will trillions in charity as has been demonstrated for decades. There has been no improvement from the trillions in redistributed wealth from first to third world. The only major improvements have come through vast system improvements, such as in China (and spill over effects, such as Chinese investment). They have to take control of their own destiny. They have to fight for their own freedom, their own property rights, their own right to exist and pursue their own lives. The West is now very bankrupt, it will soon have no more trillions to throw at the global poverty issue, it's sink or swim time.
  - antihero 14y ago
    Ah, said by a dude on hacker news. I'm sure that a bunch of people in shitty situations so the west can exploit them will appreciate your inspiring advice. It's naive reductionistic right wing garbage like what you just posted that fucked the world up so bad in the first place.
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    >That's bullshit anti-Western propaganda. You don't get to have colonies all other the world, exploit people, invade their countries, have millions of black slaves, and then dimiss the effects of this as "anti-Western propaganda". >Those "poor peoples" as you call them are responsible for their own fates, just as all of us are, no matter the situation we're born into. They have to take control of their own destiny. Easy for the 200-pound armed-to-the-gills bully that keeps them down to say that. But yes, it would be nice if they managed to get control of their own destiny and pay back some justice. Like take 20-30 million white western people to use as slaves in their fields.
tokenadult 14y ago
Corrupt, heavy-handed governments Corrupt, heavy-handed governments inflict wealth on themselves, but necessarily inflict poverty on most of the common people in the territory they control. Unlike most Americans, I actually lived in a third-world dictatorship when it was still a dictatorship, and I know that the process of the coming people gaining freedom from dictatorial rule is not an easy process. Yes, people who seek freedom and fair administration of justice eventually find that they gain prosperity too, but in the short term it can be frightening to seek freedom when the secret police can suddenly assassinate or imprison regime opponents. I am glad that the dictatorship I used to live under (that of Taiwan) had fallen by the second time I lived there, and I hope the dictatorship of (for example) North Korea falls soon, but the condition of many common people around the world is not aptly described as "self-inflicted."

rdl 14y ago

I wouldn't call it "self" inflicted, but inflicted by people, yes. The poor 3 year old child who grows up in a slum isn't the one responsible.

pretoriusB 14y ago

>Dire poverty is self-inflicted. Self-inflicted? That is a bullshit western justification. Those poor peoples have been milked to extinction by colonial overlords and left do die. Not to mention that their very countries were designed and drawn on the map by colonial powers, like dividing loot, with no respect to local populations and tensions (or with full intent to exploit them, in a "divide and conquer" move). Or that even today the governments of those countries are appointed and remotely controlled by western powers, with everything from under the table deals to open military support for their cronies. Calling poverty in those places "self-inflicted" is like saying a raped woman "deserved it".

raverbashing 14y ago
"Calling poverty in those places "self-inflicted" is like saying a raped woman "deserved it"" No, absolutely not. And it is self-inflicted, "colonialist BS" aside (there are colonial issues, of course) Religion and ignorance go a long way. You can't throw money to the problem Things may seem nice and it's easy to blame 'colonial overlords' from the armchair or from the sociology departments of universities. Very Easy. Now try teaching people about safe sex and AIDS. Try teaching people about the importance of an education. There's one way to get a proper government and that's EARNING IT. Oh by the way I come from one of those "milked" countries (not to extinction and certainly not much recently) so I know what "self inflicting" means.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >Religion and ignorance go a long way. You can't throw money to the problem Those places have been far more tolerant before they had colonial overlords and post-colonial interventions. Islam in particular was nowhere as strict and even more progressive that the feudal European populations of the time (and developed math, poetry, etc). (And it's not like the Bible Belt for example is a paradigm in the case of "religion and ignorance"). >Now try teaching people about safe sex and AIDS. Try teaching people about the importance of an education. You cannot teach them in abstract. You have to build the foundations to teach them. And all the foundations that we took for granted in the western world have been either destroyed or not developed in the past in those countries. Note also that when people say "try teaching people about the importance of an education", they mostly mean: try teaching people about WESTERN style education and western work ethic / values, etc. So a tribe in Africa that lived perfectly fine in a relative balance, Amish style, for millennia, has the modern world (in the form of the colonial and post-colonial powers) invade in it's culture, their farmland or hunting places destroyed etc, and they are left to adapt to this new context or die. So they have to be "educated" to get some mind-numbing soul-crushing job as a factory worker, reject their culture, etc. The same thing happens in Latin American tribes. We adapted to the modern world by choice and by developing it (and over centuries at that). They are FORCED to "adapt to it or die, pronto". It's not at all the same.
  - Turing_Machine 14y ago
    "So a tribe in Africa that lived perfectly fine in a relative balance, Amish style...The same thing happens in Latin American tribes." Shaka Zulu? Mali Empire? The Aztecs? The Inca? ? Not really much like the Amish.
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    Yes, I agree with the religious point. "And all the foundations that we took for granted in the western world have been either destroyed or not developed in the past in those countries." I agree with this. But "try teaching people about WESTERN style education and western work ethic / values, etc." Yes, cultural relativism only goes so far. But one could try teaching them japanese values as well, it would be good. A society can only progress with certain values and rules, and what we call "western civilization" is pretty much that, otherwise, we would be maybe talking about tribes in Europe being conquered by who knows (not that tribes in Europe didn't exist). But of course, as you said, it needs a foundation, and this took a long time even in the case of Europe. "So a tribe in Africa that lived perfectly fine in a relative balance... and they are left to adapt to this new context or die." This has happened how many times in world history again? Oh and "relative balance" may be an exaggeration. Old "innocent" tribes could and have destroyed their habitat. Example: Easter Island. That also happens in South American tribes. "We adapted to the modern world by choice and by developing it (and over centuries at that). They are FORCED to "adapt to it or die, pronto". It's not at all the same." I agree. But see, several countries are already adapting. Angola for example.
adventured 14y ago
"Those poor peoples have been milked to extinction by colonial overlords and left do die." That's bullshit anti-Western propaganda. Those "poor peoples" as you call them are responsible for their own fates, just as all of us are, no matter the situation we're born into. Pity won't save them, and neither will trillions in charity as has been demonstrated for decades. There has been no improvement from the trillions in redistributed wealth from first to third world. The only major improvements have come through vast system improvements, such as in China (and spill over effects, such as Chinese investment). They have to take control of their own destiny. They have to fight for their own freedom, their own property rights, their own right to exist and pursue their own lives. The West is now very bankrupt, it will soon have no more trillions to throw at the global poverty issue, it's sink or swim time.
- antihero 14y ago
  Ah, said by a dude on hacker news. I'm sure that a bunch of people in shitty situations so the west can exploit them will appreciate your inspiring advice. It's naive reductionistic right wing garbage like what you just posted that fucked the world up so bad in the first place.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >That's bullshit anti-Western propaganda. You don't get to have colonies all other the world, exploit people, invade their countries, have millions of black slaves, and then dimiss the effects of this as "anti-Western propaganda". >Those "poor peoples" as you call them are responsible for their own fates, just as all of us are, no matter the situation we're born into. They have to take control of their own destiny. Easy for the 200-pound armed-to-the-gills bully that keeps them down to say that. But yes, it would be nice if they managed to get control of their own destiny and pay back some justice. Like take 20-30 million white western people to use as slaves in their fields.

tokenadult 14y ago

Corrupt, heavy-handed governments Corrupt, heavy-handed governments inflict wealth on themselves, but necessarily inflict poverty on most of the common people in the territory they control. Unlike most Americans, I actually lived in a third-world dictatorship when it was still a dictatorship, and I know that the process of the coming people gaining freedom from dictatorial rule is not an easy process. Yes, people who seek freedom and fair administration of justice eventually find that they gain prosperity too, but in the short term it can be frightening to seek freedom when the secret police can suddenly assassinate or imprison regime opponents. I am glad that the dictatorship I used to live under (that of Taiwan) had fallen by the second time I lived there, and I hope the dictatorship of (for example) North Korea falls soon, but the condition of many common people around the world is not aptly described as "self-inflicted."