8 ms·

| It's really frightening to realize what communism Communism is such a loaded term that it's pretty meaningless at this point. China is also 'communist,' but

by pyre 14y ago

| It's really frightening to realize what communism Communism is such a loaded term that it's pretty meaningless at this point. China is also 'communist,' but people aren't eating roots to survive the winters. North Korea is a dictatorship under the guise of communism/socialism.

martinced 14y ago
I realize that communists don't like the fact that Cuba ain't exactly a place where freedom rules king, the fact that North Korea is an utter failure, the fact that the soviet did sent opponents to communism die in Siberia (when it wasn't downright murdering) and the fact that Che Guevara was an homophobic and racist schizophrenic slaughterer... Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery and poverty. And it's only since we can write that China is "communist" between quotes that they're starting to escape poverty. And people in small villages in China are still not exactly living on very high standards so...
- chii 14y ago
  > Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery and poverty. i don't think you can blame the problems faced by those countries to communism. The idea of communism is a good one, but the execution is always poor - reason being that at some point, someone is going to be able to grab power, and the whole system filled with corruption and/or systemic mismanagement (again, due to some form of corruption). Plus, communism sounds like a better name than tyranny, and so the tyrants call themselves communists. "real" communism, one which is say, managed my an AI, with no one small group of humans in power, is probably going to be fair and equal. I'd like to see if that could work.
  - davidhollander 14y ago
    > "real" communism, one which is say, managed my an AI, with no one small group of humans in power, is probably going to be fair and equal. Any rational agent, whether biological or artificial, A) possesses a set of preferences, and B) seeks to maximize its preferences. If an AI obtains its set of preferences for maximization from a group of privileged programmers or creators, then a small group of humans is still in power in your scenario. If the AI is responsible for deriving its own set of random preferences, then it is effectively operating as another individual in society with no deterministic guarantees on behavior, and to grant it governing authority is equivalent to unchecked dictatorship.
    - jhuni 14y ago
      Our AI programs don't need to have their own preferences. Each rational agent can be assigned an assistant AI which will derive its preferences from the agent's already existent preferences.
      - gojomo 14y ago
        It'll be like everyone has an AI genie, granting them wishes!
    - lotu 14y ago
      I believe by AI, he actually means oracle.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - Nitramp 14y ago
    > "real" communism, one which is say, managed my an AI, with > no one small group of humans in power, is probably going to > be fair and equal. I'd like to see if that could work. The problem with communism is the idea that there is a set of objectively ideal decisions that can be made to the greater good of everyone, be it by some AI or a committee. It's not only impossible to find these ideal policies, they don't exist. Policy is always a compromise between different competing goals, progress is made in small steps and adjustments. There is no great ideology from which perfect decisions can be deducted, there is no perfect system. The assumption of a perfect system leads to the idea of sacrifices on the way to it, which leads to a lot of suffering. The ability to incorporate different preferences and different means of achieving them is the major advantage of open societies.
- pyre 14y ago
  | the fact that Che Guevara was an homophobic and racist | schizophrenic slaughterer... You're making an assumption that: 1) I am a supporter of Communism and 2) I'm a supporter of Che Guevara. I'm not really seeing where you're getting this idea from. You're also seemingly making an argument that communism is bad because Che Guevara is bad. | Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery | and poverty. Care to expand on this for us with some analysis? References to articles / papers by others would be acceptable too. | And people in small villages in China are still not | exactly living on very high standards so - Did these villages have a high standard of living prior to Mao's revolution? If not, do you view the failure of communism as a failure to raise their standards above the previously low levels? If so, then what do you feel are the causes (related to communism) for their drop in standards? - India is full of examples of abject poverty. Do you view India as a failure too?
  - ameen 14y ago
    > India is full of examples of abject poverty. Do you view India as a failure too? India's poverty exists because of the massive corruption & inefficiency in various levels of the government. For eg: Tons of grains rot in government storages. Not many in the public service are held accountable. The Government theoretically allots for those below the Poverty line, but they never get the aid they're supposed to get. India is far from a failure. Because Information/Education is not limited nor restricted.
    - pm90 14y ago
      restricted or not, as long as there are still 1.5 million kids < 5 years of age dying every year, its still a failure[0]. Sure, things may be getting better, but you have to acknowledge the present for what it is. http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/India-tops-global-list-on-child-mortality-UN/Article1-928876.aspx http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/India-tops...
  - shadowmint 14y ago
    > Do you view India as a failure too? You realise this is a platitude, right? I hear this all the time, but in virtually all situations its irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Historically, communist countries have had terrible standards of living; this is extremely well documented; some (actually, just china as far as I know) have stepped away from an entirely government controlled economy to a government directed economy, and that seems to be working out for them pretty well. Being a democracy doesn't mean you'll have a great economy and a high standard of living. There are plenty of examples of that not working as well. ...but we've got a few more examples of that working out, than we do of communist regimes working out, historically. You think perhaps there might be a bit of causation there? Certainly, and importantly, this is totally irrelevant to India.
- notdrunkatall 14y ago
  Well said. The Scotsman left the building long, long ago. Someone should send the few remaining communists that memo.
- jhuni 14y ago
  > Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery and poverty. Capitalism has created dangerous situations for workers worse then slavery! Countless people (including children) have died of work related injuries in capitalist societies throughout history. When a slave dies well working, the master is disappointed that he just lost a valuable piece of property. On the other hand, a capitalist boss doesn't give a fuck if one of his workers dies, he can just pay someone else to do the job for the same price. In 1833, the city of Lancashire reported deaths of a total of 401 workers under the age of 11 and 2,292 child laborer’s between the ages of 11 and 16. Factories were hot, crowded, and distracting with no safety regulations or protective equipment and child workers would frequently get caught and die in machines. The capitalist bosses didn't give a fuck that children were dying in their machines, children are replaceable. This was the reality in the 19th century, before there were any safety laws whatsoever, and when Marx was analyzing these things. There wasn't any sort of socialism in North Korea, Cuba, or China when Marx was alive so they cannot be used to criticize his original ideas.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - saosebastiao 14y ago
    Do you really want to get into body counts? Cause I'm pretty sure communism wins that battle. Don't worry, I already know that no true Scotsman...
    - jhuni 14y ago
      > Do you really want to get into body counts? Yes, I do. Should we start with the first revolutionary socialist, Babeuf, who was executed by the guillotine or should we go all the way back to the primitive communist tribes that existed before states and classes that were massacred and enslaved by invading armies?
      - pyre 14y ago
        But... but... but... Capitalism!
- NSMeta 14y ago
  From what you say, you obviously have no idea what communism is. Not USSR, nor Northern Korea, nor China, etc.. they were never communist countries, not even a "form" of communism. Communism, in its origin form, means no government, gift-economy, direct democracy(as opposed to representative) and workers controlling the means of production. "A communist society would have no governments, countries, or class divisions." [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Etymology_and_terminology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Etymology_and_termino...
- Volpe 14y ago
  > Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery and poverty. I think you are confusing communism with capitalism... The nations that at any point had slavery, were capitalist. Capitalism itself can only exist in "surplus value" scenario, meaning someone/thing is being exploited. abject poverty, only exists because abject wealth exists. Abject wealth is a result of capitalism.
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    "The nations that at any point had slavery, were capitalist" You're wrong. And missing about 5 thousand years of history. "abject poverty, only exists because abject wealth exists" Yes, that's why the "leaders" of North Korea are abjectly wealthy. Like the leaders of Romania, for example.
    - obstacle1 14y ago
      >You're wrong Well, they certainly weren't communist, in any case. By definition slavery cannot exist in an actual communist society, since such societies are completely classless and the only form of ownership is common.
    - Volpe 14y ago
      I agree I'm wrong in the context of history of the civilisation, but correct in terms of "the history of communism, and capitalism". If you want to include feudalism in there I'm happy to have the discussion on what feudalism is closer to: Communism or Capitalism.
- obstacle1 14y ago
  >Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery and poverty. This statement is at best unprovable and at worst meaningless. Communism is a theoretical form of economic/social organization (like capitalism) and has never been purely implemented (like capitalism). The aim of communism is to create a completely classless society in which private ownership is not a thing, i.e. the concept of slavery wouldn't make sense, impossible by definition. Unless you have a society without stratification, you do not have a communist society. You should revise your statement to something like "some societies partially implemented elements of a communist philosophy and ended up impoverished, with some members of said society ending up enslaved".
frozenport 14y ago
North Korea is not communist it is Juche. All reference to Marxism-Leninism was dropped in the revised 1998 constitution. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/10/north-korea-loses-its-communist-decor/57779/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/10/north-korea-lo...
- miked 14y ago
  North Korea is not communist it is Juche. No, it's communist. It's just called Juche. Note that nothing about how things are actually done in NK changed when they changed their constitution. Note also that constitutions are essentially meaningless in a dictatorship, since they provide few, if any, real constraints on the dictator. Which, after all, is why we call them dictators. Looks like the fall of most of the communist states has gotten the regime a bit nervous. Can't have any of the little people thinking they might like to end their Socialist Paradise.
  - frozenport 14y ago
    If you take the reality of the situation instead of the claims of the officials, then there has never been a communist country in the world and certainly not in NK.
    - kevinpet 14y ago
      The same can be said of a free market, but that shouldn't stop us from comparing mostly free market economies with mostly communist economies.
      - jhuni 14y ago
        There has never been anything close to a communist economy. Communism means there are such advanced productive forces and automation technology that there is no antithesis between mental and physical labor: In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! - comrade Karl Marx
olalonde 14y ago
China has had a free market system since the early 80s. They still have a few state owned companies and a tighter grip on some industries but it is nothing near communism. As a matter of fact, the rate of entrepreneurship in China exceeds that of the US [0]. [0] http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/mar2010/sb20100311_996919.htm http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/mar2010/sb20100...
- damian2000 14y ago
  Same goes for Vietnam, if not more so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam#Economy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam#Economy I was in HCMC/Saigon recently ... it seemed that almost everyone was working in some private business or another, often small family run businesses.
- alid 14y ago
  Agreed - China has a Communist government, but with a mostly Capitalist economy. Deng Xiaoping's 1992 catchphrase - "To get rich is glorious" (致富光荣) - unleashed a wave of personal entrepreneurship that continues belie any socialist tendencies. That said, the state's grip on industry, and barriers to entry for business, are still high.
adnam 14y ago
Meanwhile in Spain -- a modern, secular, wealthy, western, capitalist country -- some people really are eating roots to survive the winter.
- forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
  Do you live in Spain like I do? Why did you invented that lie?. We are not in a good economical situation, this means problems getting a house or good car but not being able to eat...a complete different story on one of the biggest food producers in the world. We are also not very capitalist, in fact we are socialist, more than 50% of the economy is controlled by public institutions, and the biggest source of problems. In real capitalism bad companies burn and die. Those losses had been socialized and backed by the state, witch is called statism, not capitalism.
  - adnam 14y ago
    I do indeed live in Spain. To check I wasn't lying I just looked out of my window and sure enough, there's someone rooting through the rubbish bin looking for food. For "one of the biggest food producers in the world" a lot of people sure are hungry.
    - oijaf888 14y ago
      You guys don't have food banks or homeless shelters?
      - adnam 14y ago
        Yes, some.
rmc 14y ago
No, communism (& socialism) actually means something (planned economy, state owns everything). It's just some right wing politicians (esp. in the USA) who have overused the term to mean free health care and not being mean to the gays that have ruined the term.

by pyre 14y ago

martinced 14y ago

I realize that communists don't like the fact that Cuba ain't exactly a place where freedom rules king, the fact that North Korea is an utter failure, the fact that the soviet did sent opponents to communism die in Siberia (when it wasn't downright murdering) and the fact that Che Guevara was an homophobic and racist schizophrenic slaughterer... Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery and poverty. And it's only since we can write that China is "communist" between quotes that they're starting to escape poverty. And people in small villages in China are still not exactly living on very high standards so...

chii 14y ago
> Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery and poverty. i don't think you can blame the problems faced by those countries to communism. The idea of communism is a good one, but the execution is always poor - reason being that at some point, someone is going to be able to grab power, and the whole system filled with corruption and/or systemic mismanagement (again, due to some form of corruption). Plus, communism sounds like a better name than tyranny, and so the tyrants call themselves communists. "real" communism, one which is say, managed my an AI, with no one small group of humans in power, is probably going to be fair and equal. I'd like to see if that could work.
- davidhollander 14y ago
  > "real" communism, one which is say, managed my an AI, with no one small group of humans in power, is probably going to be fair and equal. Any rational agent, whether biological or artificial, A) possesses a set of preferences, and B) seeks to maximize its preferences. If an AI obtains its set of preferences for maximization from a group of privileged programmers or creators, then a small group of humans is still in power in your scenario. If the AI is responsible for deriving its own set of random preferences, then it is effectively operating as another individual in society with no deterministic guarantees on behavior, and to grant it governing authority is equivalent to unchecked dictatorship.
  - jhuni 14y ago
    Our AI programs don't need to have their own preferences. Each rational agent can be assigned an assistant AI which will derive its preferences from the agent's already existent preferences.
    - gojomo 14y ago
      It'll be like everyone has an AI genie, granting them wishes!
  - lotu 14y ago
    I believe by AI, he actually means oracle.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- Nitramp 14y ago
  > "real" communism, one which is say, managed my an AI, with > no one small group of humans in power, is probably going to > be fair and equal. I'd like to see if that could work. The problem with communism is the idea that there is a set of objectively ideal decisions that can be made to the greater good of everyone, be it by some AI or a committee. It's not only impossible to find these ideal policies, they don't exist. Policy is always a compromise between different competing goals, progress is made in small steps and adjustments. There is no great ideology from which perfect decisions can be deducted, there is no perfect system. The assumption of a perfect system leads to the idea of sacrifices on the way to it, which leads to a lot of suffering. The ability to incorporate different preferences and different means of achieving them is the major advantage of open societies.
pyre 14y ago
| the fact that Che Guevara was an homophobic and racist | schizophrenic slaughterer... You're making an assumption that: 1) I am a supporter of Communism and 2) I'm a supporter of Che Guevara. I'm not really seeing where you're getting this idea from. You're also seemingly making an argument that communism is bad because Che Guevara is bad. | Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery | and poverty. Care to expand on this for us with some analysis? References to articles / papers by others would be acceptable too. | And people in small villages in China are still not | exactly living on very high standards so - Did these villages have a high standard of living prior to Mao's revolution? If not, do you view the failure of communism as a failure to raise their standards above the previously low levels? If so, then what do you feel are the causes (related to communism) for their drop in standards? - India is full of examples of abject poverty. Do you view India as a failure too?
- ameen 14y ago
  > India is full of examples of abject poverty. Do you view India as a failure too? India's poverty exists because of the massive corruption & inefficiency in various levels of the government. For eg: Tons of grains rot in government storages. Not many in the public service are held accountable. The Government theoretically allots for those below the Poverty line, but they never get the aid they're supposed to get. India is far from a failure. Because Information/Education is not limited nor restricted.
  - pm90 14y ago
    restricted or not, as long as there are still 1.5 million kids < 5 years of age dying every year, its still a failure[0]. Sure, things may be getting better, but you have to acknowledge the present for what it is. http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/India-tops-global-list-on-child-mortality-UN/Article1-928876.aspx http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/India-tops...
- shadowmint 14y ago
  > Do you view India as a failure too? You realise this is a platitude, right? I hear this all the time, but in virtually all situations its irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Historically, communist countries have had terrible standards of living; this is extremely well documented; some (actually, just china as far as I know) have stepped away from an entirely government controlled economy to a government directed economy, and that seems to be working out for them pretty well. Being a democracy doesn't mean you'll have a great economy and a high standard of living. There are plenty of examples of that not working as well. ...but we've got a few more examples of that working out, than we do of communist regimes working out, historically. You think perhaps there might be a bit of causation there? Certainly, and importantly, this is totally irrelevant to India.
notdrunkatall 14y ago
Well said. The Scotsman left the building long, long ago. Someone should send the few remaining communists that memo.
jhuni 14y ago
> Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery and poverty. Capitalism has created dangerous situations for workers worse then slavery! Countless people (including children) have died of work related injuries in capitalist societies throughout history. When a slave dies well working, the master is disappointed that he just lost a valuable piece of property. On the other hand, a capitalist boss doesn't give a fuck if one of his workers dies, he can just pay someone else to do the job for the same price. In 1833, the city of Lancashire reported deaths of a total of 401 workers under the age of 11 and 2,292 child laborer’s between the ages of 11 and 16. Factories were hot, crowded, and distracting with no safety regulations or protective equipment and child workers would frequently get caught and die in machines. The capitalist bosses didn't give a fuck that children were dying in their machines, children are replaceable. This was the reality in the 19th century, before there were any safety laws whatsoever, and when Marx was analyzing these things. There wasn't any sort of socialism in North Korea, Cuba, or China when Marx was alive so they cannot be used to criticize his original ideas.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- saosebastiao 14y ago
  Do you really want to get into body counts? Cause I'm pretty sure communism wins that battle. Don't worry, I already know that no true Scotsman...
  - jhuni 14y ago
    > Do you really want to get into body counts? Yes, I do. Should we start with the first revolutionary socialist, Babeuf, who was executed by the guillotine or should we go all the way back to the primitive communist tribes that existed before states and classes that were massacred and enslaved by invading armies?
    - pyre 14y ago
      But... but... but... Capitalism!
NSMeta 14y ago
From what you say, you obviously have no idea what communism is. Not USSR, nor Northern Korea, nor China, etc.. they were never communist countries, not even a "form" of communism. Communism, in its origin form, means no government, gift-economy, direct democracy(as opposed to representative) and workers controlling the means of production. "A communist society would have no governments, countries, or class divisions." [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Etymology_and_terminology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Etymology_and_termino...
Volpe 14y ago
> Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery and poverty. I think you are confusing communism with capitalism... The nations that at any point had slavery, were capitalist. Capitalism itself can only exist in "surplus value" scenario, meaning someone/thing is being exploited. abject poverty, only exists because abject wealth exists. Abject wealth is a result of capitalism.
- raverbashing 14y ago
  "The nations that at any point had slavery, were capitalist" You're wrong. And missing about 5 thousand years of history. "abject poverty, only exists because abject wealth exists" Yes, that's why the "leaders" of North Korea are abjectly wealthy. Like the leaders of Romania, for example.
  - obstacle1 14y ago
    >You're wrong Well, they certainly weren't communist, in any case. By definition slavery cannot exist in an actual communist society, since such societies are completely classless and the only form of ownership is common.
  - Volpe 14y ago
    I agree I'm wrong in the context of history of the civilisation, but correct in terms of "the history of communism, and capitalism". If you want to include feudalism in there I'm happy to have the discussion on what feudalism is closer to: Communism or Capitalism.
obstacle1 14y ago
>Communism, no matter its form, only leads to slavery and poverty. This statement is at best unprovable and at worst meaningless. Communism is a theoretical form of economic/social organization (like capitalism) and has never been purely implemented (like capitalism). The aim of communism is to create a completely classless society in which private ownership is not a thing, i.e. the concept of slavery wouldn't make sense, impossible by definition. Unless you have a society without stratification, you do not have a communist society. You should revise your statement to something like "some societies partially implemented elements of a communist philosophy and ended up impoverished, with some members of said society ending up enslaved".

frozenport 14y ago

North Korea is not communist it is Juche. All reference to Marxism-Leninism was dropped in the revised 1998 constitution. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/10/north-korea-loses-its-communist-decor/57779/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/10/north-korea-lo...

miked 14y ago
North Korea is not communist it is Juche. No, it's communist. It's just called Juche. Note that nothing about how things are actually done in NK changed when they changed their constitution. Note also that constitutions are essentially meaningless in a dictatorship, since they provide few, if any, real constraints on the dictator. Which, after all, is why we call them dictators. Looks like the fall of most of the communist states has gotten the regime a bit nervous. Can't have any of the little people thinking they might like to end their Socialist Paradise.
- frozenport 14y ago
  If you take the reality of the situation instead of the claims of the officials, then there has never been a communist country in the world and certainly not in NK.
  - kevinpet 14y ago
    The same can be said of a free market, but that shouldn't stop us from comparing mostly free market economies with mostly communist economies.
    - jhuni 14y ago
      There has never been anything close to a communist economy. Communism means there are such advanced productive forces and automation technology that there is no antithesis between mental and physical labor: In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! - comrade Karl Marx

olalonde 14y ago

China has had a free market system since the early 80s. They still have a few state owned companies and a tighter grip on some industries but it is nothing near communism. As a matter of fact, the rate of entrepreneurship in China exceeds that of the US [0]. [0] http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/mar2010/sb20100311_996919.htm http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/mar2010/sb20100...

damian2000 14y ago
Same goes for Vietnam, if not more so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam#Economy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam#Economy I was in HCMC/Saigon recently ... it seemed that almost everyone was working in some private business or another, often small family run businesses.
alid 14y ago
Agreed - China has a Communist government, but with a mostly Capitalist economy. Deng Xiaoping's 1992 catchphrase - "To get rich is glorious" (致富光荣) - unleashed a wave of personal entrepreneurship that continues belie any socialist tendencies. That said, the state's grip on industry, and barriers to entry for business, are still high.

adnam 14y ago

Meanwhile in Spain -- a modern, secular, wealthy, western, capitalist country -- some people really are eating roots to survive the winter.

forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
Do you live in Spain like I do? Why did you invented that lie?. We are not in a good economical situation, this means problems getting a house or good car but not being able to eat...a complete different story on one of the biggest food producers in the world. We are also not very capitalist, in fact we are socialist, more than 50% of the economy is controlled by public institutions, and the biggest source of problems. In real capitalism bad companies burn and die. Those losses had been socialized and backed by the state, witch is called statism, not capitalism.
- adnam 14y ago
  I do indeed live in Spain. To check I wasn't lying I just looked out of my window and sure enough, there's someone rooting through the rubbish bin looking for food. For "one of the biggest food producers in the world" a lot of people sure are hungry.
  - oijaf888 14y ago
    You guys don't have food banks or homeless shelters?
    - adnam 14y ago
      Yes, some.

rmc 14y ago

No, communism (& socialism) actually means something (planned economy, state owns everything). It's just some right wing politicians (esp. in the USA) who have overused the term to mean free health care and not being mean to the gays that have ruined the term.