7 ms·

This was an interesting read and very much in line with other travelers' reports. However, I do wonder about this part: >Go to North Korea if you can. It is ve

by travisp 14y ago

This was an interesting read and very much in line with other travelers' reports. However, I do wonder about this part: >Go to North Korea if you can. It is very, very strange. Is it really a good idea to go if you don't have a particular reason (such as this diplomatic trip)? I recall that most human rights groups recommended that tourists not visit Burma until recently so as not to support the regime. For someone like me who would only be going to satisfy my own curiosity, would I not simply be supporting the North Korean regime? I would be giving them money and possibly helping them in their propaganda efforts (see, look, at this American who has come to visit our great country!). I can't think of any ways in which my visit would be good or helpful.

ezequiel-garzon 14y ago
On the other hand, isolating an entire people in order to "let the ship sink" sooner and thereby allegedly help them (cf. half-century-old embargo on Cuba) doesn't seem morally sound either. These are tricky issues indeed.
jcfrei 14y ago
your contribution to the regime would be marginal at most - so why bother? shedding some light on this weird country is much more important in my opinion.
- travisp 14y ago
  I agree that your contribution to the government is small, although it's not zero. I assume North Korea wouldn't be allowing Western tourists to come on these trips otherwise; they clearly see an advantage to your visit (unless they are just deluded that Western tourists will be fooled by the propaganda). But, what are the chances that your time there will really shed any more light on North Korea? Encouraging friends to read "Nothing to Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea", for example, or simply reading it or another similar book yourself and sharing your thoughts would arguably shed more light than a brief government managed trip and a blog post. Edit: I'd love to hear why you disagree rather than just downvoting. I've wondered about making this trip myself in the past and this is where I've settled, but would be happy to hear further arguments.
  - jcfrei 14y ago
    I wasn't the one who downvoted you. Your trip to North Korea might give you the chance to expose violations of basic human rights. granted, those chances are slim and you probably will put your own safety at risk in doing this. we still know comparably little about North Koreans and personally I just find it important to keep some memories of this bizarre, inhumane regime alive - even if it's just as a warning to others.
  - uuilly 14y ago
    "Nothing to Envy" is a phenomenal read. Highly recommend it.
mynegation 14y ago
I went to Burma for two reasons. First, the country isolated from the rest of the world can be an eye-opening experience. If you are, say, North American, and all you go is Western Europe you will never quite learn to appreciate what you have. To me the biggest surprise was how warm, cheerful and hospitable Burmese people are, in a country where poverty is rampant, infrastructure is almost non-existent and freethinking is oppressed. And the second reason is that you can try to direct your money more to the people than government by staying and eating in small family establishments rather than pricy hotels that are almost always are controlled by the government.
- travisp 14y ago
  You might have been able to do that in Burma. I know people who have travelled to Burma, Cuba, and other places and made similar arguments that I sympathize with. But you can't do that in North Korea: you can't go stay in small family establishments or choose where to eat. The entire trip is managed by the government and even trying to give money or talk to anyone about politics is probably risking the life of the person you talk to. That leaves your first reason, which seems like a very self-focused reason -- I could learn the same thing from visiting other countries (or spending time reading up on the many accounts of North Korea, particularly those who have escapes).
  - Dav3xor 14y ago
    It's difficult to do, but these guys did it -- http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/ http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/
    - kapsel 14y ago
      No, they did not. Their NK part were arranged by KITC, the governmental travel agency of the DPRK.
      - pyre 14y ago
        | The state North Korean tourist company KITC did | not know in advance about our route. And we did | not know what would really happen to us after | arrival at Tumangan.
sandis 14y ago
They don't really sustain the country/regime on tourism. It's a drop in the ocean.
RaphiePS 14y ago
My family and I went to North Korea purely for curiosity's sake. Although we didn't like the giving-money-to-a-terrible-dictatorship aspect, the trip really changed our perceptions of the country and was by far the most interesting trip I had taken.
- jtheory 14y ago
  > the trip really changed our perceptions of the country Interesting; can you elaborate a bit?
  - RaphiePS 14y ago
    Sure! All our conceptions about it being a crazy, dysfunctional country were absolutely correct. But I also had the prejudice that its citizens would be cold, humorless people hostile to us Americans. Instead, I was greeted by warm, friendly people. Waitresses would giggle as they sang karaoke, smiling as they tried to get the tourists and their guides to dance with them. Our driver, who didn't speak a word of English, would occasionally crack a joke and cackle to himself. Sometimes I almost forgot that I was in a Communist dictatorship for a bit, only to be quickly brought back. During a visit to Pyongyang's finest maternity hospital, my father (a doctor) had a lengthy chat about various medical techniques with the doctor that was showing us around. Seemed to be a completely normal conversation until she would add in that these machines were there due to the kindness of Their Great Leader Kim Jong Un, who visited x years ago. Kids at amusement parks wanted pictures with us. Preteen girls giggled to themselves at my sight. Our guides had fun play-swordfighting with my dad in medieval Korean costume at a movie studio. Even the local guide who showed us the USS Spy Ship Pueblo was very friendly while describing the imperialist crimes of America. Our guides seemed genuinely pleased to share their culture with us. Now, this might all be the result of selection bias -- most of these interactions were with tourism employees--guides, waitresses (in the special for-tourists-only restaurants we visited), and flight attendants. It's possible these men and women hated our guts and pretended for our money. As I said in a previous comment, their curiosity at our opinions of the war was rather fishy. But I think it'd be exceptionally hard to fake it that well. At least I hope it was genuine, as it made me really feel for these friendly people trapped under a terrible regime.
stevoski 14y ago
The situation in Burma is that Aung San Suu Kyi, the democratically elected leader and Nobel Peace Prize recipient, who was under long-term house arrest by the military dictatorship, specifically requested that people not visit Burma for tourism. She has now ended this opposition to tourism in Burma.
nikcub 14y ago
The cost of a visa and a stay in North Korea is so low, and so few people visit each week that it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they make a loss on each visitor. It must cost them a lot to keep the hotel with 20 guests running, each visit site staffed, the 100,000 performers at the main stadium, the subway line etc. for 20-30 visitors a week. It is like a really large theme park with very few customers.
- rmc 14y ago
  Unless they aren't paying their staff. "Go be an actor in this computer room or we'll lock you & your family up". Things get very cheap when you have lots of slaves....

by travisp 14y ago

ezequiel-garzon 14y ago

On the other hand, isolating an entire people in order to "let the ship sink" sooner and thereby allegedly help them (cf. half-century-old embargo on Cuba) doesn't seem morally sound either. These are tricky issues indeed.

jcfrei 14y ago

your contribution to the regime would be marginal at most - so why bother? shedding some light on this weird country is much more important in my opinion.

travisp 14y ago
I agree that your contribution to the government is small, although it's not zero. I assume North Korea wouldn't be allowing Western tourists to come on these trips otherwise; they clearly see an advantage to your visit (unless they are just deluded that Western tourists will be fooled by the propaganda). But, what are the chances that your time there will really shed any more light on North Korea? Encouraging friends to read "Nothing to Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea", for example, or simply reading it or another similar book yourself and sharing your thoughts would arguably shed more light than a brief government managed trip and a blog post. Edit: I'd love to hear why you disagree rather than just downvoting. I've wondered about making this trip myself in the past and this is where I've settled, but would be happy to hear further arguments.
- jcfrei 14y ago
  I wasn't the one who downvoted you. Your trip to North Korea might give you the chance to expose violations of basic human rights. granted, those chances are slim and you probably will put your own safety at risk in doing this. we still know comparably little about North Koreans and personally I just find it important to keep some memories of this bizarre, inhumane regime alive - even if it's just as a warning to others.
- uuilly 14y ago
  "Nothing to Envy" is a phenomenal read. Highly recommend it.

mynegation 14y ago

I went to Burma for two reasons. First, the country isolated from the rest of the world can be an eye-opening experience. If you are, say, North American, and all you go is Western Europe you will never quite learn to appreciate what you have. To me the biggest surprise was how warm, cheerful and hospitable Burmese people are, in a country where poverty is rampant, infrastructure is almost non-existent and freethinking is oppressed. And the second reason is that you can try to direct your money more to the people than government by staying and eating in small family establishments rather than pricy hotels that are almost always are controlled by the government.

travisp 14y ago
You might have been able to do that in Burma. I know people who have travelled to Burma, Cuba, and other places and made similar arguments that I sympathize with. But you can't do that in North Korea: you can't go stay in small family establishments or choose where to eat. The entire trip is managed by the government and even trying to give money or talk to anyone about politics is probably risking the life of the person you talk to. That leaves your first reason, which seems like a very self-focused reason -- I could learn the same thing from visiting other countries (or spending time reading up on the many accounts of North Korea, particularly those who have escapes).
- Dav3xor 14y ago
  It's difficult to do, but these guys did it -- http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/ http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/
  - kapsel 14y ago
    No, they did not. Their NK part were arranged by KITC, the governmental travel agency of the DPRK.
    - pyre 14y ago
      | The state North Korean tourist company KITC did | not know in advance about our route. And we did | not know what would really happen to us after | arrival at Tumangan.

sandis 14y ago

They don't really sustain the country/regime on tourism. It's a drop in the ocean.

RaphiePS 14y ago

My family and I went to North Korea purely for curiosity's sake. Although we didn't like the giving-money-to-a-terrible-dictatorship aspect, the trip really changed our perceptions of the country and was by far the most interesting trip I had taken.

jtheory 14y ago
> the trip really changed our perceptions of the country Interesting; can you elaborate a bit?
- RaphiePS 14y ago
  Sure! All our conceptions about it being a crazy, dysfunctional country were absolutely correct. But I also had the prejudice that its citizens would be cold, humorless people hostile to us Americans. Instead, I was greeted by warm, friendly people. Waitresses would giggle as they sang karaoke, smiling as they tried to get the tourists and their guides to dance with them. Our driver, who didn't speak a word of English, would occasionally crack a joke and cackle to himself. Sometimes I almost forgot that I was in a Communist dictatorship for a bit, only to be quickly brought back. During a visit to Pyongyang's finest maternity hospital, my father (a doctor) had a lengthy chat about various medical techniques with the doctor that was showing us around. Seemed to be a completely normal conversation until she would add in that these machines were there due to the kindness of Their Great Leader Kim Jong Un, who visited x years ago. Kids at amusement parks wanted pictures with us. Preteen girls giggled to themselves at my sight. Our guides had fun play-swordfighting with my dad in medieval Korean costume at a movie studio. Even the local guide who showed us the USS Spy Ship Pueblo was very friendly while describing the imperialist crimes of America. Our guides seemed genuinely pleased to share their culture with us. Now, this might all be the result of selection bias -- most of these interactions were with tourism employees--guides, waitresses (in the special for-tourists-only restaurants we visited), and flight attendants. It's possible these men and women hated our guts and pretended for our money. As I said in a previous comment, their curiosity at our opinions of the war was rather fishy. But I think it'd be exceptionally hard to fake it that well. At least I hope it was genuine, as it made me really feel for these friendly people trapped under a terrible regime.

stevoski 14y ago

The situation in Burma is that Aung San Suu Kyi, the democratically elected leader and Nobel Peace Prize recipient, who was under long-term house arrest by the military dictatorship, specifically requested that people not visit Burma for tourism. She has now ended this opposition to tourism in Burma.

nikcub 14y ago

The cost of a visa and a stay in North Korea is so low, and so few people visit each week that it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they make a loss on each visitor. It must cost them a lot to keep the hotel with 20 guests running, each visit site staffed, the 100,000 performers at the main stadium, the subway line etc. for 20-30 visitors a week. It is like a really large theme park with very few customers.

rmc 14y ago
Unless they aren't paying their staff. "Go be an actor in this computer room or we'll lock you & your family up". Things get very cheap when you have lots of slaves....