7 ms·

MIT Legal repudiated Xbox hacker too

160 points by irq 14y ago

dshep 14y ago
Favorite quote: "It saddens me that America’s so-called government for the people, by the people, and of the people has less compassion and enlightenment toward their fellow man than a corporation."
- afarrell 14y ago
  I found that quote interesting too, as it was telling that the author felt it expressed something noteworthy. I don't see why it should be at all surprising. Corporations are made of living, breathing people. They each have their own organizational culture and set of external pressures that guides their decisions and behavior. The same is true of governments, and government agencies, and offices within government agencies, and cliques of people within offices of government agencies, and ... you get my point. You get an even greater sense of this when you talk to people who have ever created a corporation or tried to make it more powerful. Gee, I wonder if there are any such people who hang around here...
michaelfeathers 14y ago
In the US, prosecution has become a punishment that overwhelms any eventual sentence.
rdl 14y ago
Are there other universities known for being better at this than MIT?
- davorak 14y ago
  The impression many people have is that MIT has or is getting worse on these types of issues hence why it is a big deal to them.
dshep 14y ago
"I started rebuilding my life overseas, and I find a quantum of solace in the thought that my residence abroad makes it a little more difficult to be served." Does this mean things are better outside the US these days?
- jstanley 14y ago
  Barring the likes of China, things were always better outside the US.
  - GNUAerospace 14y ago
    Absolutely! Cheers from Vienna Austria, the birthplace of libertarianism!
    - DoubleMalt 14y ago
      To bad that libertarianism is not held in high regard here any more. I am happy to live in Vienna as it is a great city, but governmental overreach was recently demonstrated by a trial against some animal rights activist based on trumped up "terrorism" charges. And while they were acquitted with the judge stating her disgust with the police and prosecution their livelihoods were mostly ruined. I do not agree with their opinions, but they should be able to express them. (Apparently the police investigation was done after the owner of a clothing chain got annoyed by the incessant protests in front of his stores for selling fur products)
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Unless you're interested in e.g. free speech, and your's gets labeled hate speech somewhere like the UK or France. Or you know, any of the wide range of other areas where European laws are more restrictive.
    - aroberge 14y ago
      The U.S. has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's jail population. Numbers would seem to indicate that the laws AND the application of the law make the U.S. much more restrictive than most, if not all, 1st world countries.
drawkbox 14y ago
Cruel and unusual punishment via prosecution. Prison threats for non-violent crimes. I agree, things have gotten carried far away.
- tzs 14y ago
  What's wrong with prison for non-violent crime? For instance, if someone steals my car from a parking lot, I'm OK with them getting prison time, even if they didn't use violence to get my car.
  - drawkbox 14y ago
    Well in your case a fine and paying for damages. Repeat offenses maybe could constitute jail time. But wouldn't non violent crimes be better served by keeping the person out of the prison system with hardened criminals, further preventing a life of crime. In the end, is that better for taxes and society in general? I don't have all the answers, but in many cases prison for non-violent crimes (i.e. this JSTOR case or drug cases) are misguided and perpetuate the problem. Would you be happy if that person that stole your car was a first time offender and later found out he got caught up in a gang in prison and entered a life of crime? Or would you just collect your insurance, buy another car, and hope that there is some non-violent offender programs that could stop that, or that over time he could repay that to insurance? We have to change that I believe, or we can expect many more situations like the recent events. I hate even talking about the private prison system we have here that profits off of incarceration of non-violent crimes. In Swartz's case, putting someone in prison that is contributing to society in exchange for locking them up for 30+k per year seems completely backwards, cruel and ancient thinking. A system that can create larger criminals easily from imprisonment of minor or non-violent actions. We should at least differentiate them better.
  - mbell 14y ago
    Putting someone in jail is just as likely to turn them in a violent repeat offender as it is to 'cure' them.
    - jmodp 14y ago
joezydeco 14y ago
Sorry to be a little cynical here, but I have a couple of questions. 1) Was bunnie's hack of the Xbox keys a MIT-endorsed project? Was it part of his degree work or something he did on his own time? 2) If the work was independent, what's MIT's obligation to shield bunnie in a legal sense? If it wasn't, did MIT step in and say "hey, this might piss off Microsoft if you do this" or was the work just put out there with unknown some degree of oversight? 3) bunnie was an MIT student, Arron was not. The statement "MIT gave up on me too" kind of implies the situations were similar. Were they? Don't misunderstand me, I have immense respect for bunnie and hackers of his breed, but these things are just bugging me.
- jmix 14y ago
  I see your legalistic approach to MIT's responsibilities, but this fascination with "endorsement" is missing the point. Universities are not government labs, where you'd expect every participant to clear every activity with their superiors. Research doesn't work that way. And if universities do not stick up for exploration, who will? Was MIT obligated to defend this fellow? No. Should it have defended him? Most definitely.
  - joezydeco 14y ago
    In my view, endorsement is key. Let's pretend we're listening in on that first phone call from Microsoft to MIT: MS: "Hey, um, so we've learned that one of your students just published a way to jeopardize our entire project, one that we've spent multiple millions of dollars developing. He seems to have done it in your labs with your tools. What's your take?" So MIT's response can go one of two ways: 1) "Yeah, how about that? Cool, huh? We didn't know about it but we fully back him and let's see what the internet does with this." 2) "Um, we had no idea he was doing this and didn't ask him to publish. He did this alone." Do you see where each direction leads?
    - rhizome 14y ago
      3) "That's between you and him." Contributory liability should be used in far fewer cases than those in which it is attempted. You can't sue me over your auto-accident because my tax dollars built the road.
kragen 14y ago
Bunnie here says he feels safer from government abuses in Singapore, which has no trial by jury, a single-party government, and the highest execution rate in the world, where all public gatherings of five or more people require a police permit, than in the US. Does that mean the US has failed?

160 points by irq 14y ago

dshep 14y ago

Favorite quote: "It saddens me that America’s so-called government for the people, by the people, and of the people has less compassion and enlightenment toward their fellow man than a corporation."

afarrell 14y ago
I found that quote interesting too, as it was telling that the author felt it expressed something noteworthy. I don't see why it should be at all surprising. Corporations are made of living, breathing people. They each have their own organizational culture and set of external pressures that guides their decisions and behavior. The same is true of governments, and government agencies, and offices within government agencies, and cliques of people within offices of government agencies, and ... you get my point. You get an even greater sense of this when you talk to people who have ever created a corporation or tried to make it more powerful. Gee, I wonder if there are any such people who hang around here...

michaelfeathers 14y ago

In the US, prosecution has become a punishment that overwhelms any eventual sentence.

rdl 14y ago

Are there other universities known for being better at this than MIT?

davorak 14y ago
The impression many people have is that MIT has or is getting worse on these types of issues hence why it is a big deal to them.

dshep 14y ago

"I started rebuilding my life overseas, and I find a quantum of solace in the thought that my residence abroad makes it a little more difficult to be served." Does this mean things are better outside the US these days?

jstanley 14y ago
Barring the likes of China, things were always better outside the US.
- GNUAerospace 14y ago
  Absolutely! Cheers from Vienna Austria, the birthplace of libertarianism!
  - DoubleMalt 14y ago
    To bad that libertarianism is not held in high regard here any more. I am happy to live in Vienna as it is a great city, but governmental overreach was recently demonstrated by a trial against some animal rights activist based on trumped up "terrorism" charges. And while they were acquitted with the judge stating her disgust with the police and prosecution their livelihoods were mostly ruined. I do not agree with their opinions, but they should be able to express them. (Apparently the police investigation was done after the owner of a clothing chain got annoyed by the incessant protests in front of his stores for selling fur products)
- rayiner 14y ago
  Unless you're interested in e.g. free speech, and your's gets labeled hate speech somewhere like the UK or France. Or you know, any of the wide range of other areas where European laws are more restrictive.
  - aroberge 14y ago
    The U.S. has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's jail population. Numbers would seem to indicate that the laws AND the application of the law make the U.S. much more restrictive than most, if not all, 1st world countries.

drawkbox 14y ago

Cruel and unusual punishment via prosecution. Prison threats for non-violent crimes. I agree, things have gotten carried far away.

tzs 14y ago
What's wrong with prison for non-violent crime? For instance, if someone steals my car from a parking lot, I'm OK with them getting prison time, even if they didn't use violence to get my car.
- drawkbox 14y ago
  Well in your case a fine and paying for damages. Repeat offenses maybe could constitute jail time. But wouldn't non violent crimes be better served by keeping the person out of the prison system with hardened criminals, further preventing a life of crime. In the end, is that better for taxes and society in general? I don't have all the answers, but in many cases prison for non-violent crimes (i.e. this JSTOR case or drug cases) are misguided and perpetuate the problem. Would you be happy if that person that stole your car was a first time offender and later found out he got caught up in a gang in prison and entered a life of crime? Or would you just collect your insurance, buy another car, and hope that there is some non-violent offender programs that could stop that, or that over time he could repay that to insurance? We have to change that I believe, or we can expect many more situations like the recent events. I hate even talking about the private prison system we have here that profits off of incarceration of non-violent crimes. In Swartz's case, putting someone in prison that is contributing to society in exchange for locking them up for 30+k per year seems completely backwards, cruel and ancient thinking. A system that can create larger criminals easily from imprisonment of minor or non-violent actions. We should at least differentiate them better.
- mbell 14y ago
  Putting someone in jail is just as likely to turn them in a violent repeat offender as it is to 'cure' them.
  - jmodp 14y ago

joezydeco 14y ago

Sorry to be a little cynical here, but I have a couple of questions. 1) Was bunnie's hack of the Xbox keys a MIT-endorsed project? Was it part of his degree work or something he did on his own time? 2) If the work was independent, what's MIT's obligation to shield bunnie in a legal sense? If it wasn't, did MIT step in and say "hey, this might piss off Microsoft if you do this" or was the work just put out there with unknown some degree of oversight? 3) bunnie was an MIT student, Arron was not. The statement "MIT gave up on me too" kind of implies the situations were similar. Were they? Don't misunderstand me, I have immense respect for bunnie and hackers of his breed, but these things are just bugging me.

jmix 14y ago
I see your legalistic approach to MIT's responsibilities, but this fascination with "endorsement" is missing the point. Universities are not government labs, where you'd expect every participant to clear every activity with their superiors. Research doesn't work that way. And if universities do not stick up for exploration, who will? Was MIT obligated to defend this fellow? No. Should it have defended him? Most definitely.
- joezydeco 14y ago
  In my view, endorsement is key. Let's pretend we're listening in on that first phone call from Microsoft to MIT: MS: "Hey, um, so we've learned that one of your students just published a way to jeopardize our entire project, one that we've spent multiple millions of dollars developing. He seems to have done it in your labs with your tools. What's your take?" So MIT's response can go one of two ways: 1) "Yeah, how about that? Cool, huh? We didn't know about it but we fully back him and let's see what the internet does with this." 2) "Um, we had no idea he was doing this and didn't ask him to publish. He did this alone." Do you see where each direction leads?
  - rhizome 14y ago
    3) "That's between you and him." Contributory liability should be used in far fewer cases than those in which it is attempted. You can't sue me over your auto-accident because my tax dollars built the road.

kragen 14y ago

Bunnie here says he feels safer from government abuses in Singapore, which has no trial by jury, a single-party government, and the highest execution rate in the world, where all public gatherings of five or more people require a police permit, than in the US. Does that mean the US has failed?