32 ms·

Exactly! We don't know what Aaron would have been sentenced to, and it would probably have been a mere fraction of the maximum penalty. There was something else

by sp4rki 14y ago

Exactly! We don't know what Aaron would have been sentenced to, and it would probably have been a mere fraction of the maximum penalty. There was something else going on in his life that we don't and most probably won't know or ever understand that lead him to take his own life. Regardless the world would have been a better place with him around, and it's a sad state of affairs that the rules and laws regarding computer crimes are so out of context and maybe even unjust. That being said, it was Aaron who took his own life, not the justice system regardless of how fucked up we believe it to be.

jacquesm 14y ago
> There was something else going on in his life that we don't and most probably won't know or ever understand that lead him to take his own life. And you know this how?
- ritchiea 14y ago
  Because he wrote multiple times about depression on his public blog?
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    This has been exhausted I think, multiple times to see it rehashed all the time is a bit tiring. At the risk of boring people: 1) his lawyer and his closest family seem to agree that the lawsuit was the driving force 2) he did it on the anniversary of the start of the lawsuit 3) the actual trial was to start shortly 4) So far when under outside pressure he held up pretty good, but this was pressure far exceeding his previous exposure If you wish to argue the lawsuit was not the reason you're going to have to come up with something better.
    - ritchiea 14y ago
      I don't think anyone is saying the lawsuit wasn't a terrible burden on him, just that the lawsuit wasn't the only factor.
      - jacquesm 14y ago
        > just that the lawsuit wasn't the only factor. I think you will find that most people are aware of that. But it very well could have been the factor that drove him over the edge and you're going to have to allow for that.
        jlgreco 14y ago
        The sack of bricks that broke the camels back, so to speak.
      - rhizome 14y ago
        Who is saying that the case was the only factor? I've only seen it as a strawman by those arguing it away. I see these people as protecting the prosecution's perspective on the case. "Hey, don't look at us."
    - rmc 14y ago
      Perhaps, you misunderstand my original intentions. I'm not trying to stop the propagation of things I believe to be wrong. I have no idea if it was the trial or not. However other suicidal people reading us all saying "Oh it was definitely the trail, that's why he killed himself", they might just think that if there is a lot of external pressure they are justified in killing themselves. This might lead to people killing themselves. Please try to discourage that. It's like security research. We follow Responsible Disclosure for vulnerablities where you don't tell the public first. When there is a big bug (e.g. the recent Ruby on Rails bug), we don't all post links to proofs of concepts. Why? Because doing these things tends to result in innocent people getting hurt. The same thinking should be at play with suicide.
      - Dylan16807 14y ago
        But suicide never stops being a problem. So your plan is to.. lie to people forever? In security research terms, let them keep buying onity locks, because we don't want people to know how to break onity locks and steal/hurt? It's not the only factor but as jlgreco said it's the "sack of bricks that broke the camels back"
        koide 14y ago
        The point is that WE DON'T KNOW and CANNOT KNOW what his thoughts were when he was tying the rope around his neck. Stop acting as if depression was logical.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        It's very true that you can't be sure. But it's definitely a notable factor. People don't make important decisions based on a single reason. Suicide isn't special here. And your argument is completely unrelated to what I was objecting to, which is the idea that admitting influences on suicide must be stopped because it's badthink and could cause more suicide.
        koide 14y ago
    - kens 14y ago
      There was a lawsuit? I thought this was a purely criminal matter, and wikipedia says nothing about a lawsuit.
      - jacquesm 14y ago
        "Although not as common, lawsuit may also refer to a criminal action, criminal proceeding, or criminal claim." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit
    - gojomo 14y ago
      Re: (1): Grieving friends and family, while the best sources on some topics, may not have a completely accurate understanding of the suicidal mind. In their desire to make the loss "count for something", and work through their own "survivor's guilt", they may be especially likely to ascribe to acute tangible external reasons something that was equally or mainly caused by chronic non-specific internal reasons. From timing it's likely that the lawsuit pressure was central in Aaron's reasoning. But in suicidal depression, accurate reasoning breaks down. Survivable, tolerable, and temporary things can seem permanent and intolerable. Without one apparent trigger (the prosecution), a depressive mind could latch instead onto other rationales... even rationales that seem to outsiders like personal triumphs. Inside the depressive mind those triumphs might not deliver the expected satisfaction, or may seem to represent a peak that can never be matched again and just wasn't enough. I know it seems pat to say, "it was depression, period". There should be more consideration of the particulars than that. But it's equally pat to say, "a smart guy killed himself, he must have had logical reasons, let's rank all the potential logical reasons from public information, and conclude the top item on that list is 'the' reason". Without severe depression, all the publicly-known logical reasons aren't enough to explain this suicide.... but severe depression, or other stresses not publicly known, might explain it.
genwin 14y ago
> There was something else going on in his life that we don't and most probably won't know or ever understand that lead him to take his own life. Facing prison for even 6 months is reason enough to kill yourself. Facing that plus rapes/AIDS/beatings/overcrowding in prison, plus a large fine, plus multiple years of probation, all for a victimless crime, is even more reason to kill yourself.
- koide 14y ago
  Are you actually recommending suicide to all would be inmates, or just to the depressive HN readers who might be on a tight spot right now? Your comment strikes me as absolutely irresponsible and out of touch with reality. Prison is not a joke, but there's a reason the capital punishment is death. Why increase the sentence on your own?
  - genwin 14y ago
    Suicide is a viable option to what Aaron was facing, no depression needed. His life was all but ruined anyway. Plenty of people chose suicide on 9/11 rather than face something worse. Doubtful they were all irresponsible, depressed, or out of touch with reality. More likely they just made the best choice as they saw it.
    - koide 14y ago
      It's a great thing you can tell the future regarding Aaron's life had it continued. I'll ignore the strawman.
      - genwin 14y ago
        Yet you are confident you can predict his future, it seems. I have an opinion about which of two options is better. Of course I could be wrong. Maybe Aaron would sell another piece of a company, enough to pay off the fine/penalties/interest and not be homeless. If it were me I'd jump off a bridge before I'd endure repeated anal rape, let alone everything else Aaron was facing.

by sp4rki 14y ago

jacquesm 14y ago

> There was something else going on in his life that we don't and most probably won't know or ever understand that lead him to take his own life. And you know this how?

ritchiea 14y ago
Because he wrote multiple times about depression on his public blog?
- jacquesm 14y ago
  This has been exhausted I think, multiple times to see it rehashed all the time is a bit tiring. At the risk of boring people: 1) his lawyer and his closest family seem to agree that the lawsuit was the driving force 2) he did it on the anniversary of the start of the lawsuit 3) the actual trial was to start shortly 4) So far when under outside pressure he held up pretty good, but this was pressure far exceeding his previous exposure If you wish to argue the lawsuit was not the reason you're going to have to come up with something better.
  - ritchiea 14y ago
    I don't think anyone is saying the lawsuit wasn't a terrible burden on him, just that the lawsuit wasn't the only factor.
    - jacquesm 14y ago
      > just that the lawsuit wasn't the only factor. I think you will find that most people are aware of that. But it very well could have been the factor that drove him over the edge and you're going to have to allow for that.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        The sack of bricks that broke the camels back, so to speak.
    - rhizome 14y ago
      Who is saying that the case was the only factor? I've only seen it as a strawman by those arguing it away. I see these people as protecting the prosecution's perspective on the case. "Hey, don't look at us."
  - rmc 14y ago
    Perhaps, you misunderstand my original intentions. I'm not trying to stop the propagation of things I believe to be wrong. I have no idea if it was the trial or not. However other suicidal people reading us all saying "Oh it was definitely the trail, that's why he killed himself", they might just think that if there is a lot of external pressure they are justified in killing themselves. This might lead to people killing themselves. Please try to discourage that. It's like security research. We follow Responsible Disclosure for vulnerablities where you don't tell the public first. When there is a big bug (e.g. the recent Ruby on Rails bug), we don't all post links to proofs of concepts. Why? Because doing these things tends to result in innocent people getting hurt. The same thinking should be at play with suicide.
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      But suicide never stops being a problem. So your plan is to.. lie to people forever? In security research terms, let them keep buying onity locks, because we don't want people to know how to break onity locks and steal/hurt? It's not the only factor but as jlgreco said it's the "sack of bricks that broke the camels back"
      - koide 14y ago
        The point is that WE DON'T KNOW and CANNOT KNOW what his thoughts were when he was tying the rope around his neck. Stop acting as if depression was logical.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        It's very true that you can't be sure. But it's definitely a notable factor. People don't make important decisions based on a single reason. Suicide isn't special here. And your argument is completely unrelated to what I was objecting to, which is the idea that admitting influences on suicide must be stopped because it's badthink and could cause more suicide.
        koide 14y ago
  - kens 14y ago
    There was a lawsuit? I thought this was a purely criminal matter, and wikipedia says nothing about a lawsuit.
    - jacquesm 14y ago
      "Although not as common, lawsuit may also refer to a criminal action, criminal proceeding, or criminal claim." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit
  - gojomo 14y ago
    Re: (1): Grieving friends and family, while the best sources on some topics, may not have a completely accurate understanding of the suicidal mind. In their desire to make the loss "count for something", and work through their own "survivor's guilt", they may be especially likely to ascribe to acute tangible external reasons something that was equally or mainly caused by chronic non-specific internal reasons. From timing it's likely that the lawsuit pressure was central in Aaron's reasoning. But in suicidal depression, accurate reasoning breaks down. Survivable, tolerable, and temporary things can seem permanent and intolerable. Without one apparent trigger (the prosecution), a depressive mind could latch instead onto other rationales... even rationales that seem to outsiders like personal triumphs. Inside the depressive mind those triumphs might not deliver the expected satisfaction, or may seem to represent a peak that can never be matched again and just wasn't enough. I know it seems pat to say, "it was depression, period". There should be more consideration of the particulars than that. But it's equally pat to say, "a smart guy killed himself, he must have had logical reasons, let's rank all the potential logical reasons from public information, and conclude the top item on that list is 'the' reason". Without severe depression, all the publicly-known logical reasons aren't enough to explain this suicide.... but severe depression, or other stresses not publicly known, might explain it.

genwin 14y ago

> There was something else going on in his life that we don't and most probably won't know or ever understand that lead him to take his own life. Facing prison for even 6 months is reason enough to kill yourself. Facing that plus rapes/AIDS/beatings/overcrowding in prison, plus a large fine, plus multiple years of probation, all for a victimless crime, is even more reason to kill yourself.

koide 14y ago
Are you actually recommending suicide to all would be inmates, or just to the depressive HN readers who might be on a tight spot right now? Your comment strikes me as absolutely irresponsible and out of touch with reality. Prison is not a joke, but there's a reason the capital punishment is death. Why increase the sentence on your own?
- genwin 14y ago
  Suicide is a viable option to what Aaron was facing, no depression needed. His life was all but ruined anyway. Plenty of people chose suicide on 9/11 rather than face something worse. Doubtful they were all irresponsible, depressed, or out of touch with reality. More likely they just made the best choice as they saw it.
  - koide 14y ago
    It's a great thing you can tell the future regarding Aaron's life had it continued. I'll ignore the strawman.
    - genwin 14y ago
      Yet you are confident you can predict his future, it seems. I have an opinion about which of two options is better. Of course I could be wrong. Maybe Aaron would sell another piece of a company, enough to pay off the fine/penalties/interest and not be homeless. If it were me I'd jump off a bridge before I'd endure repeated anal rape, let alone everything else Aaron was facing.