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> drug use wouldn't be in the top 10, because at least that hurt nobody Unless you produce your own drugs and consume them secretly, that is not true. > That'

> drug use wouldn't be in the top 10, because at least that hurt nobody Unless you produce your own drugs and consume them secretly, that is not true. > That's a good reason to encourage legalization... The reality is, drugs are not legal. You can't go there.

unalone 18y ago
Unless you produce your own drugs and consume them secretly, that is not true. The only people hurt were hurt due to illegality. Who is hurt when you drink wine? Used to be wine was illegal, and people got hurt until alcohol was legalized. The reality is, drugs are not legal. You can't go there. Drugs being illegal isn't hard reality. The solution is to legalize them rather than to stop persecuting the people who are using them.
- jfornear 18y ago
  I agree with your solution for pot at least, but having that position doesn't condone continual usage while it's still illegal, you know?
  - unalone 18y ago
    My mindset - one that many other people share - is that you should worry less about the law and more about whether or not what you're doing is moral and good. I'll break the law if the law is bad, without feeling very guilty.
    - jfornear 18y ago
      I agree with that too, but collateral consequences are not to be overlooked. If you break a bad law which, in turn, causes people to suffer, you should feel guilty.
      - unalone 18y ago
        It depends. If I'm making drugs illegally, and in doing so I shoot some guy to keep him away from my drugs, then I should feel guilty. But if I'm not directly involved in that violence, then my feeling guilty for that illegal process only encourages the people who would use your morality to enforce their own corrupt principles. Not feeling guilt for the things you didn't do forces the corrupt laws to look at themselves and eventually revise.
        jfornear 18y ago
        How do you define direct vs. indirect involvement? If a weapons dealer sells a terrorist a bomb knowing it will hurt innocent people, the dealer might not directly detonate the bomb themselves, but I think we would still hold the dealer partly responsible for supplying the tool. Likewise, if a buyer buys an illegal good and it is known that, somewhere down the line, people were killed in the process of getting that good to the buyer, the buyer shares responsibility for supplying the motive, money.
ajkirwin 18y ago
Have you ever gone 1 mph above the speed limit? Jaywalked? Loitered? Looked at pornography before you were old enough? Groped someone before you were of age? Had sex before you were of age? Drank underaged? Smoked underaged? Had a friend give you a few vicodin when you sprained an ankle? Given yourself a few dodgy deductibles when you filed your taxes? All these things are fairly minor, but they are all CRIMES. Crimes that people perpetrate all the time. And we'd have to put nearly everyone in jail if we strictly followed 'reality'.
- jfornear 18y ago
  Most of those are not crimes, but civil offenses. The possession and distribution of illegal drugs on the other hand, are criminal.
  - ajkirwin 18y ago
    That's a difference only of degree.
    - jfornear 18y ago
      Sure, but I don't understand how you can belittle that. Partaking in the illegal drug trade is obviously not like jaywalking.
      - jonknee 18y ago
        > Partaking in the illegal drug trade is obviously not like jaywalking. You're right, they are not alike. Jaywalking is illegal for safety reasons (to both the offender and more importantly the driving public). On a moral basis, I find neither offense objectionable unless you hurt someone in the process.
        jfornear 18y ago
        > On a moral basis, I find neither offense objectionable unless you hurt someone in the process. How can you ignore the violence that is unarguably a by-product of the illegal drug trade?

unalone 18y ago

Unless you produce your own drugs and consume them secretly, that is not true. The only people hurt were hurt due to illegality. Who is hurt when you drink wine? Used to be wine was illegal, and people got hurt until alcohol was legalized. The reality is, drugs are not legal. You can't go there. Drugs being illegal isn't hard reality. The solution is to legalize them rather than to stop persecuting the people who are using them.

jfornear 18y ago
I agree with your solution for pot at least, but having that position doesn't condone continual usage while it's still illegal, you know?
- unalone 18y ago
  My mindset - one that many other people share - is that you should worry less about the law and more about whether or not what you're doing is moral and good. I'll break the law if the law is bad, without feeling very guilty.
  - jfornear 18y ago
    I agree with that too, but collateral consequences are not to be overlooked. If you break a bad law which, in turn, causes people to suffer, you should feel guilty.
    - unalone 18y ago
      It depends. If I'm making drugs illegally, and in doing so I shoot some guy to keep him away from my drugs, then I should feel guilty. But if I'm not directly involved in that violence, then my feeling guilty for that illegal process only encourages the people who would use your morality to enforce their own corrupt principles. Not feeling guilt for the things you didn't do forces the corrupt laws to look at themselves and eventually revise.
      - jfornear 18y ago
        How do you define direct vs. indirect involvement? If a weapons dealer sells a terrorist a bomb knowing it will hurt innocent people, the dealer might not directly detonate the bomb themselves, but I think we would still hold the dealer partly responsible for supplying the tool. Likewise, if a buyer buys an illegal good and it is known that, somewhere down the line, people were killed in the process of getting that good to the buyer, the buyer shares responsibility for supplying the motive, money.

ajkirwin 18y ago

Have you ever gone 1 mph above the speed limit? Jaywalked? Loitered? Looked at pornography before you were old enough? Groped someone before you were of age? Had sex before you were of age? Drank underaged? Smoked underaged? Had a friend give you a few vicodin when you sprained an ankle? Given yourself a few dodgy deductibles when you filed your taxes? All these things are fairly minor, but they are all CRIMES. Crimes that people perpetrate all the time. And we'd have to put nearly everyone in jail if we strictly followed 'reality'.

jfornear 18y ago
Most of those are not crimes, but civil offenses. The possession and distribution of illegal drugs on the other hand, are criminal.
- ajkirwin 18y ago
  That's a difference only of degree.
  - jfornear 18y ago
    Sure, but I don't understand how you can belittle that. Partaking in the illegal drug trade is obviously not like jaywalking.
    - jonknee 18y ago
      > Partaking in the illegal drug trade is obviously not like jaywalking. You're right, they are not alike. Jaywalking is illegal for safety reasons (to both the offender and more importantly the driving public). On a moral basis, I find neither offense objectionable unless you hurt someone in the process.
      - jfornear 18y ago
        > On a moral basis, I find neither offense objectionable unless you hurt someone in the process. How can you ignore the violence that is unarguably a by-product of the illegal drug trade?