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True but Aaron's activism resulted in him being bullied until he took his own life. It's a difficult topic. If you assume that ddos from a collective is simila

True but Aaron's activism resulted in him being bullied until he took his own life. It's a difficult topic. If you assume that ddos from a collective is similar to blocking a road by a collective during a strike or manifestation then I must say that some people won't be able to get to work that day and in general nobody would get hurt. This sort of pacific interruption raises awareness, which by itself is very important for a functioning democracy.

gee_totes 14y ago
But why protest student blogs and class websites? Why not target the prosecutor's office? Blockading a key port that is shipping war supplies or preforming a DDOS attack against government websites can be legitimate form of protest, but those actions are very hard to plan and pull off. This attack (if it is an attack) just seems like someone is going after the low-hanging fruit of MIT's network.
- analog 14y ago
  This is a common argument against activism and it's a classic logical fallacy. You're doing X, but Y would be more effective, therefore X is pointless. In reality what happens is that someone does X and someone else does Y, and it's not uncommon for the same group to do both. Fwiw, I don't have any view on whether this attack (if it is one) is justified. I haven't read enough on what MIT have/haven't done so I can't comment.
  - vor_ 14y ago
    The post you're replying to doesn't say anything about being pointless, but besides that, surely it's not a logical fallacy to point out that one action is more effective than another.
    - BrokenPipe 14y ago
      meh, he didn't say pointless but seems like he meant it by saying " low hanging fruit"
  - snowwrestler 14y ago
    The converse fallacy would be that "anything X that is easy for me to do is therefore an effective form of activism."
- BrokenPipe 14y ago
  Perhaps easier targets. Perhaps because the people behind the ddos want actual students and teachers of the MIT to revolt against those that decided to continue the case against Aaron. Who said nobody is attacking the persecutor's office and why is it either and not both ?
vor_ 14y ago
This "pacific interruption", as you delicately describe it, hurts innocent teachers and students who had nothing to do with the alleged bullying of Swartz, who was already suicidal prior to his prosecution. Regardless of what one may think of computer laws, there is no proven link between his suicide and the criminal charges he faced, and any claims to the contrary have so far been entirely speculative and coming from people who never met the guy--one can't help but wonder if they had even heard of him before last week. In addition, many of Swartz's accomplishments have been exaggerated specifically to fuel a frenzied mob. E.g., "co-creator of Reddit" which contradicts the public statements of other Reddit founders, and "creator of RSS" when he was one member of a group that took over Netscape's technology. Of course, my saying this will be used as a reason to attack me for discounting contributions that he actually made, which isn't the case. I am simply pointing out that the knee-jerk righteous indignation and mad desire to blame is getting out of hand. It's becoming an angry mob, directing its violence at convenient targets to feed a primal hunger for revenge.
- BrokenPipe 14y ago
  He was depressed, and because of the case he was considered by his lawyer at suicide risk but I'm not aware of any reported attempt of suicide by Aaron. Again, if some people can't go to work because of a strike, even if it seemingly hurting teachers, student or general population it is in fact benefiting them and the right price for democracy. Democracy can only be with awareness and without it is just a different kind of manipulated monarchy. And the rest of your 'additions' seems very ugly. He was part of a joint-venture or similar between companies where they all called each other cofunder, not co creator. And check at what age he did work on RSS, if that's not an accomplishment I don't know what is. Not an angry mob, nobody is being physically hurt, just slightly interrupted from what they were doing just as it happens when there's a strike or a big manifestation.
- analog 14y ago
  "no proven link between his suicide and the criminal charges he faced, and any claims to the contrary have so far been entirely speculative and coming from people who never met the guy" Please stop spreading lies and disinformation. 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners [1] 'depressed about his case/upcoming trial, but we had no idea what he was going through was this painful.' from his mother [2] [1] http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-aaron-swartz-funeral-eulogy-father-20130115,0,648108.story http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-aaron-... [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5047398 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5047398
sigzero 14y ago
"True but Aaron's activism resulted in him being bullied until he took his own life." You state that like it is the only reason he did it. It contributed, yes, but it wasn't the sole cause.

gee_totes 14y ago

But why protest student blogs and class websites? Why not target the prosecutor's office? Blockading a key port that is shipping war supplies or preforming a DDOS attack against government websites can be legitimate form of protest, but those actions are very hard to plan and pull off. This attack (if it is an attack) just seems like someone is going after the low-hanging fruit of MIT's network.

analog 14y ago
This is a common argument against activism and it's a classic logical fallacy. You're doing X, but Y would be more effective, therefore X is pointless. In reality what happens is that someone does X and someone else does Y, and it's not uncommon for the same group to do both. Fwiw, I don't have any view on whether this attack (if it is one) is justified. I haven't read enough on what MIT have/haven't done so I can't comment.
- vor_ 14y ago
  The post you're replying to doesn't say anything about being pointless, but besides that, surely it's not a logical fallacy to point out that one action is more effective than another.
  - BrokenPipe 14y ago
    meh, he didn't say pointless but seems like he meant it by saying " low hanging fruit"
- snowwrestler 14y ago
  The converse fallacy would be that "anything X that is easy for me to do is therefore an effective form of activism."
BrokenPipe 14y ago
Perhaps easier targets. Perhaps because the people behind the ddos want actual students and teachers of the MIT to revolt against those that decided to continue the case against Aaron. Who said nobody is attacking the persecutor's office and why is it either and not both ?

vor_ 14y ago

This "pacific interruption", as you delicately describe it, hurts innocent teachers and students who had nothing to do with the alleged bullying of Swartz, who was already suicidal prior to his prosecution. Regardless of what one may think of computer laws, there is no proven link between his suicide and the criminal charges he faced, and any claims to the contrary have so far been entirely speculative and coming from people who never met the guy--one can't help but wonder if they had even heard of him before last week. In addition, many of Swartz's accomplishments have been exaggerated specifically to fuel a frenzied mob. E.g., "co-creator of Reddit" which contradicts the public statements of other Reddit founders, and "creator of RSS" when he was one member of a group that took over Netscape's technology. Of course, my saying this will be used as a reason to attack me for discounting contributions that he actually made, which isn't the case. I am simply pointing out that the knee-jerk righteous indignation and mad desire to blame is getting out of hand. It's becoming an angry mob, directing its violence at convenient targets to feed a primal hunger for revenge.

BrokenPipe 14y ago
He was depressed, and because of the case he was considered by his lawyer at suicide risk but I'm not aware of any reported attempt of suicide by Aaron. Again, if some people can't go to work because of a strike, even if it seemingly hurting teachers, student or general population it is in fact benefiting them and the right price for democracy. Democracy can only be with awareness and without it is just a different kind of manipulated monarchy. And the rest of your 'additions' seems very ugly. He was part of a joint-venture or similar between companies where they all called each other cofunder, not co creator. And check at what age he did work on RSS, if that's not an accomplishment I don't know what is. Not an angry mob, nobody is being physically hurt, just slightly interrupted from what they were doing just as it happens when there's a strike or a big manifestation.
analog 14y ago
"no proven link between his suicide and the criminal charges he faced, and any claims to the contrary have so far been entirely speculative and coming from people who never met the guy" Please stop spreading lies and disinformation. 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners [1] 'depressed about his case/upcoming trial, but we had no idea what he was going through was this painful.' from his mother [2] [1] http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-aaron-swartz-funeral-eulogy-father-20130115,0,648108.story http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-aaron-... [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5047398 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5047398

sigzero 14y ago

"True but Aaron's activism resulted in him being bullied until he took his own life." You state that like it is the only reason he did it. It contributed, yes, but it wasn't the sole cause.