14 ms·

Petition To Fire Aaron Swartz’ Prosecutor Reaches Goal

305 points by zoowar 14y ago

davemel37 14y ago
I seem to recall a story about a Pepsi employee who made a bad decision that cost Pepsi over 10 million dollars. The CEO called him into his office, and the employee shuffled in saying, "I guess you are gonna fire me now." To which the CEO Exclaimed, "Fire You?! I Just Spent 10 million dollars educating you!" Just something to think about here.
- rdl 14y ago
  People learn from mistakes and become better. They generally do not improve from moral/character flaws like being a power-seeking career-ambitious-to-the-exclusion-of-all-else asshole political climber.
pms 14y ago
"There is also an ongoing petition to fire assistant U.S. Attorney Steve Heymann, also connected with the events that led to the tragic suicide of prodigy Aaron Swartz. That petition has yet to reach its goal." https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-attorney-steve-heymann/RJKSY2nb https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-...
thomasvendetta 14y ago
Petition to fire accomplice Steve Heymann still needs 22k more: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-attorney-steve-heymann/RJKSY2nb https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-...
- greghinch 14y ago
  This one is arguably more important. The more I read about this guy, the more he sounds like the real bully
danso 14y ago
> Overall, there is a feeling that Aaron Swartz’ death has to mark the beginning of a change. This petition could be a ticket and an opportunity for the administration to begin such a change, if nothing else, just by firing an overreaching prosecutor. That would be a symbolic action that would still send a message, albeit a weak one, but it would go a long way for many. In contrast, a nonaction from the administration would be a signal that vigilante justice is the only remaining option, which would be unfortunate on many levels. This is a silly article. There are actually steps that happen before the firing of an official, most notably an investigation. But this article reads as: "We got 25,000 signatures, if the President doesn't ax her then people will resort to armed revolt" (I'll skip the debate on whether it's good for a government to be directed by the popularity of an online petition, unless people favor the country renamed to 'The United States of Bieber') The main point is that action in government is slow. And for good reason. If people want to hold onto the fantasy that when a bunch of people get angry, the government will take drastic action...then fine...but people who really want to see change should be prepared to accept that the original problem (the case against Swartz) may not be satisfactory dealt with, but that attitudes change and reform can eventually happen, as long as the people who care continue to speak up and apply pressure.
- fr0sty 14y ago
  > The main point is that action in government is slow. And for good reason. If people want to hold onto the fantasy that when a bunch of people get angry, the government will take drastic action...then fine... Sandy Hook was one month ago and the President is having a big news conference tomorrow about the administrations response re: gun violence. Is that "slow"? "drastic action"? something else?
  - numbsafari 14y ago
    It's 25 dead children who were completely innocent of any crime. It's an incident in a long line of incidents over many decades in which many innocent people were killed. I think you need to calibrate your moral barometer a bit better.
    - 14y ago
uptown 14y ago
Am I the only one that finds these petitions pointless? They marginalize any real activism down to just some signatures by loosely-connected individuals and really just provide a forum for speaking to your elected officials - something they're supposed to be there for anyway - in a format that has none of the financial "umph" that lobbyists bring.
- gesman 14y ago
  Well, lets wait for whitehouse response, and then...
- georgemcbay 14y ago
  They aren't inherently totally pointless. If they reach the 25,000 "signatures" required to trigger a response, that becomes somewhat of a news item more likely to spill into the mainstream news, thus drawing some attention to whatever the issue is, which is always somewhat helpful. But certainly they are less effective than real protest, or real physical letters sent to lawmakers, so if done in lieu of those things then that's a problem.
  - TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
    Yeah. Tell me about how that death star is going to go again? That's why these petitions are an utter joke.
- pms 14y ago
  I think these are actually one of the few things that can be done, showing the government, that there are many people unhappy about this case out there, and that something has to be changed. It's true, that these petitions are not big deals, but usually things don't change rapidly, it's a process, and cutting the arms that hurt us is it's first step. Obviously, most probably they won't get cut, but at least they won't get promoted, for God's sake. Unless you have another ideas of what to do?
- neltnerb 14y ago
  I am deeply worried about this too. I suspect that the data driven Obama administration has full capability to estimate the likelihood of citizens rioting, and determined that providing a "lazy" outlet for frustration would undermine real protest. It's like how facebook lets you complain about some horrible injustice, which makes you feel like you've done something even though you've done next to nothing. Very worried. Especially since I see it happening to me too. When we went to war in Iraq, I was out in the streets marching and holding protest signs. So was almost everyone I know. If we declared war on Iran, would the same happen? My bet is you'd see lots of complaining on facebook, and a petition to not go to war. Maybe emailed letters to representatives in congress. But actual street protests? No way, we can just let anonymous annoy some people for us.
gesman 14y ago
We need another one: "To return all taxpayer's money wasted on prolonged witch hunt fueled by personal egoic ambitions"
- numbsafari 14y ago
  Only if it's followed up with a petition to "return all taxpayer money wasted on egoic pranks". There was always a way forward to achieving Aaron's goals that didn't involve sneaking around. Whether he was right or wrong, he knew on some level that what he was doing was, at the very least, inappropriate and potentially harmful. If not, then why attempt to hide his face? If not, why even do it at all? It's a sad and unfortunate fact that Aaron didn't found Demand Progress before he decided to do what he did. It's a sad and unfortunate fact that he will never have his day in court, or the opportunity to plead for mercy by showing that he'd learned his lesson and founded Demand Progress in an effort to take a better, more rational path to achieving his goals. And it's a sad and unfortunate fact that we are wasting time on silly petitions that single out individuals rather than investing all that time and effort into changing the laws they were using against Aaron so that this kind of abuse never happens again. Instead, a bunch of young people are going to go out and do rash and ill considered things in the defense of someone who did a rash and ill considered thing and likely end up facing a similar, if not worse fate than he did. It's a sad and unfortunate thing that, despite all of the collective intelligence on this and many other forums, there are very few adults willing to stand up and say "don't do rash and ill considered things unless you are willing to deal with the consequences". Young people are prone to making bad choices, we should neither encourage them, nor seek to punish them disproportionately.
  - gesman 14y ago
    >>sad and unfortunate fact that we are wasting time on silly petitions that single out individuals rather than >>investing all that time and effort into changing the laws Please elaborate on your track record in "investing time and effort into changing laws". Let these silly 30,000+ petition voters to learn from an expert.
  - phaemon 14y ago
AnIrishDuck 14y ago
Am I the only one embarrassed by the blatant errors in that petition? The first sentence is a run-on grammatical non sequitor. The rest of the petition conveys a muddled thought process that seems blinded by outrage. Did the author even bother to proofread that thing before submitting it? There are plenty of other reasons to pass on this petition. That said, this displays less polish and thought than an email I typically send to my boss. I wouldn't blame the White House for ignoring a plea that reads more like a teenager's facebook rant. It certainly appears to have involved the same level of critical thinking.
- olefoo 14y ago
  As the author of the petition; I take responsibility for hitting the submit button, halfway through an edit. Sorry.
  - neltnerb 14y ago
    I forgive you. (No, seriously, this bugged me too, but it's the sentiment that counts)
    - olefoo 14y ago
      I was in the midst of changing the tense; I should have written it in emacs and then copied it into the form once I was happy with it. So it goes. I'm actually wondering whether a more considered phrasing would have done worse. As it is the main goal of putting the headline into Barack Obama's eyeballs has been reached, and Ms. Ortiz knows that her boss is making the political calculation of whether she is a liability or an asset.
      - res0nat0r 14y ago
        Unfortunately this will come no where near close to the President's eyeballs. It will be reviewed and responded to by some low level staff group who has been tasked to wade thru all of the petitions (and nonsense like the Death Star) which get 25k votes.
agwa 14y ago
Though I'd like to see Oritz fired, and think she's deserving of it, the effort to get her fired is blinding us to a bigger problem and a proper solution. The system was broken long before Oritz and Swartz, but it wasn't until it affected someone we like that we noticed. But we're in a bubble, and the vast majority of Americans do not care who Aaron Swartz is, will not be affected by this tragedy like we were, and in general think that prosecutors need all the tools they can get to put "bad" people in prison. The American people love tough-on-crime policies, and it's not possible to publicly shame a public official, or get her fired, for doing something that most of the public supports. If we want to make change, we need to move the needle on the public's perception of crime. That's a hard problem, and it's not as easy as signing a petition, but it's a problem we'll never be able to solve if we're blinded by trying to exact vengeance on a prosecutor. Edited to add: if Oritz were likely to be fired, then I agree it would be a great starting point for a larger movement. But my point is that changing public opinion of tough-on-crime policies is a prerequisite for getting Oritz fired. A prosecutor is not going to be fired for engaging in normal conduct that is loved by the public, even if the outcome in this case was tragic.
- BenoitEssiambre 14y ago
  Even though getting officials fired is not your preferred method to help jumpstart reform there are no reasons for you to discourage others of doing so. If you think you have a better axis of attack on this problem, I beg you, please lead an effort on that axis. If we waited for a consensus on the best manner to proceed before doing anything, noting would ever get done. To make a comparison relevant to this community, imagine that HN was used to shame others starting businesses that don't use the best consensus methods or ideas. How many good startups would never see the day? With startups, more than 90% of attempts fail. I'm pretty sure that attempts at changing the system don't have better odds. If we reduce the efforts to a single attempt, there is 90% chances it will fail. Also, consider that special interests have probably built legal and political walls in the most obvious paths of change. It's worth trying all fronts to find a weakness especially the newer little known ones.
  - philh 14y ago
crag 14y ago
Let me point out every prosecutor threatens the accused. Whether you were caught stealing gold or chewing gum. I doubt this "prosecutor" even knew the details of the "crime" or cared. I doubt she was ever briefed on the details of Aaron's life or cared too hear it. That's what she has assistants for. And that's the problem with the system. Prosecutors don't take time (except on TV) to learn about the accused. They just go straight for the throat. Be dammed the circumstances. It's not enough to go after one prosecutor. Change the system.
ceol 14y ago
I'm not sure what this petition is trying to accomplish. Do you think, should the President fire Ms Ortiz, she would be replaced by someone completely different? Her actions are a reflection of the entire justice system; the person who replaces her will continue with the same bullying, "String 'em up in Town Square"-style tactics as she did. Everything will continue as it has been, but now the affluent, Bay-area 20-somethings who were originally so outraged will kick up their feet and go back to not caring about the justice system because they think they effected some sort of change. I was so surprised with the HN community's response. So many people saw that Aaron had committed suicide and thought, with their ninja-rockstar-hacker intelligence, that we should go on a witch-hunt and burn Ms Ortiz at the stake. Doesn't that seem like the worst possible thing to do in a time when we have very little facts?
- PrudenceYuris 14y ago
  That is a curious argument. The point of this petition, and everything else done to remove Ortiz, Heymann, and Garland is that it is a repeatable process. Making a spectacular example of Ortiz et. al. is a first step, but it's a fine first step. Or put it this way, would we have as many lawyers willing to shield torture had John Yoo ended up delivering pizza for a living?
  - ceol 14y ago
    I'm not seeing much to remove Heymann or Garland. There's another petition for Heymann, but that's not getting near as much traction as the Ortiz one, even when I've seen numerous commenters claim he was the one behind the case. What's going on with these petitions is exactly the tactic politicians use to calm the populace down when they're screaming for something to be done after a scandal or catastrophe. Removing Ortiz would give everyone the vengeance they desire but it wouldn't do a damn thing because the people qualified to replace her are all just like her.
    - PrudenceYuris 14y ago
      That's a good point regarding the petition, which is why direct action against these people should not be limited to signing the petition. Indeed, they should be harried out of their professional and private lives as thoroughly and relentlessly as they drove Swartz to suicide. Their lives should be made not worth living.
SagelyGuru 14y ago
I think this whole petition is a mistaken diversion. This issue is bigger than Ms. Ortiz. The fact is that she was only doing her job in the way that the Congress and the Administration very much expected her to do. Take this up with those who gave her the weapons: the laws she was using and the common procedures she was using. Take it up with those who very much wanted those weapons ready and used to silence an activist.
- AnthonyMouse 14y ago
  I agree with you. We must change the laws that allowed this to happen. But we can do both.
throwaway271 14y ago
Ortiz was nominated to her position by Obama in 2009. She resides in Milton, MA where it just so happens Gov Patrick, Obama's close personal friend also resides. She's well-connected and a double diversity quota. She's going nowhere.
- PrudenceYuris 14y ago
  Which is why efforts to end her career should go forward with as little restraint as her prosecution
- smogzer 14y ago
  Which is a eye opening to show the hipocrisy of the white house.
res0nat0r 14y ago
Why is there not this type of outpouring of rage and internet hate the last few days for someone who is seriously being railroaded: Bradley Manning. This is a person who has been locked up into solitary for months now and is being treated very inhumanely. Is it because he hasn't written any Python libraries and isn't visible in Silicon Valley?
- mediacrisis 14y ago
  Not that I agree with Bradley Mannings punishment, but I think a key difference is that he was not a civilian.
  - mpyne 14y ago
    And unlike normal whistleblowers, he wasn't even aware of the contents of the vast majority of classified material he exfiltrated. Even at the level of "oh those are just diplomatic cables", those cables could just as easily have been "we need to focus on these nuclear weapons assemblies in Fooistan next" and tip off Islamist elements as to where to find their first dirty bomb, as of gossip about Berlusconi.
- AnthonyMouse 14y ago
  You are making a logical argument, but change doesn't come from logic. What you should change should come from logic, but the impetus -- the will -- comes from emotion. People need to be stirred up in order to act. That is human nature. And when the cause of that is a tragedy it breaks our hearts, but that is why we must work to make it so that this does not happen again. So argue that we should help Bradley Manning, or the inner city victims of the drug war, or children starving in Africa. But argue it somewhere else at some other time. Right now we have a cause. There are a large number of good people who want to fix this now. Let them. Help them. Because this needs to be fixed, and having a singular cause gives us focus. It puts success in reach, more than it is at any other time. You are not helping by distracting people with other serious problems -- all you are doing is making it less likely that anything gets done, by disheartening everyone with the scope of the problems we face. We do not have to fix every problem in the world at the same time. Now is the time to fix this one.
tcuk 14y ago
It's a sad day when the mob campaigns to end the career of someone who's simply doing there job, rather than causing change to the actual law that defines how they do the job. But this particular prosecutor was just a bully, right? Who had it out for Aaron out of personal hate, perhaps the Illuminati are involved also? The only other reasoning is she was just doing her job and prosecuting a man who broke the actual law, and showed traits of an activist who could be a repeat offender, and was trying to deter him from getting into more serious trouble in the future. A suspended sentence and a felony doesn't seem too bad if she was deterring him from something that could see him in jail 10 years with a plea bargain.
- marshray 14y ago
  No mob is trying to "end the career" of some mid-level public servant for whimsical reasons. The United States Attorney for the District of Massachusetts is not someone just "doing their job", it is a very high-level position appointed to serve the public interest. What people want is to prevent this person from abusing the power entrusted in them any further. Oh look, just last week Oritz declined to run for Governor. http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_politics/2013/01/carmen_ortiz_rules_out_gov_senate_run http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_politics/2013/01/...
SoftwareMaven 14y ago
This petition could be a ticket and an opportunity for the administration to begin such a change... Yeah, because we all know how well Obama's "change" went. How's gitmo going? What about those executive orders? Seen any drones in the Middle East or northern Africa lately? Surely there is no more cronyism in the White House or Justice Department. I realize not every promise can be kept, but I've never regretted a vote like I did the vote for him (not that I ever would have voted for McCain). The point is this administration has shown it could care less about change. Don't expect anything, much less anything positive, to come of this.
- baggachipz 14y ago
  > this administration ... could care less about change So, in fact, they DO care about change then?
- tkahn6 14y ago
  There's a difference between international and domestic security policy.
deleted 14y ago
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glyphobet 14y ago
It is a shame that the petition to pardon Swartz has 1/10th of the signatures that the petition to fire Ortiz has. Let's advocate for a government that forgives (alleged) crimes as strongly as we advocate for a government that punishes people like Ortiz. http://twitpic.com/bvjjvz http://twitpic.com/bvjjvz https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/posthumously-pardon-aaron-swartz/DVpdmSBj https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/posthumously-pardo...
- tkahn6 14y ago
  Swartz is dead, so I don't know what pardoning him now would accomplish other than securing a useless symbolic 'victory'.
  - mpyne 14y ago
    He can't even be pardoned; the charges were dropped. Even if the charges were somehow still in effect, the proper thing to do would be to have the charges dropped entirely. A pardon implies guilt, it simply commutes the sentence of the convicted.
zby 14y ago
Nothing like a good old scapegoating.
miguelrochefort 14y ago
What if she gets fired and kills herself? Will they go after us? It's a never ending war. We're all trying to punish people to give the exemple. Us trying to fire Ortiz is similar to Ortiz trying to prosecute Aaron Swartz.
- marshray 14y ago
  > Us trying to fire Ortiz is similar to Ortiz trying to prosecute Aaron Swart This is a democratic country. We get to campaign to replace our elected officials, and even the appointed ones too. It's our civic duty. Do you seriously think that's anything like a government official abusing their power in an attempt to imprison a highly-regarded citizen for years and years for downloading bulk articles from the university library?
deleted 14y ago
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donniezazen 14y ago
Are non-citizens residents allowed to vote on these petitions?
mdxn 14y ago
This witch hunt is incredibly disturbing. Not only do these petitions blatantly exclude some fundamental principles of government and society, but they distracts greatly from where our focus should lie.
bjhoops1 14y ago
Aaaand they just raised the petition threshold to 100,000: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57564203-93/white-house-raises-petition-signature-threshold-to-100k/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57564203-93/white-house-rai...
- pohl 14y ago
  From looking the petition page, this petition may have been grandfathered-in. (It says "SIGNATURES NEEDED BY FEBRUARY 11, 2013 TO REACH GOAL OF 25,000: 0") https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-states-district-attorney-carmen-ortiz-office-overreach-case-aaron-swartz/RQNrG1Ck https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-stat...
ommunist 14y ago
Not yet. The threshold is 100K signatures per petition now.

305 points by zoowar 14y ago

I seem to recall a story about a Pepsi employee who made a bad decision that cost Pepsi over 10 million dollars. The CEO called him into his office, and the employee shuffled in saying, "I guess you are gonna fire me now." To which the CEO Exclaimed, "Fire You?! I Just Spent 10 million dollars educating you!" Just something to think about here.

rdl 14y ago
People learn from mistakes and become better. They generally do not improve from moral/character flaws like being a power-seeking career-ambitious-to-the-exclusion-of-all-else asshole political climber.

pms 14y ago

"There is also an ongoing petition to fire assistant U.S. Attorney Steve Heymann, also connected with the events that led to the tragic suicide of prodigy Aaron Swartz. That petition has yet to reach its goal." https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-attorney-steve-heymann/RJKSY2nb https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-...

thomasvendetta 14y ago

Petition to fire accomplice Steve Heymann still needs 22k more: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-attorney-steve-heymann/RJKSY2nb https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-...

greghinch 14y ago
This one is arguably more important. The more I read about this guy, the more he sounds like the real bully

danso 14y ago

> Overall, there is a feeling that Aaron Swartz’ death has to mark the beginning of a change. This petition could be a ticket and an opportunity for the administration to begin such a change, if nothing else, just by firing an overreaching prosecutor. That would be a symbolic action that would still send a message, albeit a weak one, but it would go a long way for many. In contrast, a nonaction from the administration would be a signal that vigilante justice is the only remaining option, which would be unfortunate on many levels. This is a silly article. There are actually steps that happen before the firing of an official, most notably an investigation. But this article reads as: "We got 25,000 signatures, if the President doesn't ax her then people will resort to armed revolt" (I'll skip the debate on whether it's good for a government to be directed by the popularity of an online petition, unless people favor the country renamed to 'The United States of Bieber') The main point is that action in government is slow. And for good reason. If people want to hold onto the fantasy that when a bunch of people get angry, the government will take drastic action...then fine...but people who really want to see change should be prepared to accept that the original problem (the case against Swartz) may not be satisfactory dealt with, but that attitudes change and reform can eventually happen, as long as the people who care continue to speak up and apply pressure.

fr0sty 14y ago
> The main point is that action in government is slow. And for good reason. If people want to hold onto the fantasy that when a bunch of people get angry, the government will take drastic action...then fine... Sandy Hook was one month ago and the President is having a big news conference tomorrow about the administrations response re: gun violence. Is that "slow"? "drastic action"? something else?
- numbsafari 14y ago
  It's 25 dead children who were completely innocent of any crime. It's an incident in a long line of incidents over many decades in which many innocent people were killed. I think you need to calibrate your moral barometer a bit better.
  - 14y ago

uptown 14y ago

Am I the only one that finds these petitions pointless? They marginalize any real activism down to just some signatures by loosely-connected individuals and really just provide a forum for speaking to your elected officials - something they're supposed to be there for anyway - in a format that has none of the financial "umph" that lobbyists bring.

gesman 14y ago
Well, lets wait for whitehouse response, and then...
georgemcbay 14y ago
They aren't inherently totally pointless. If they reach the 25,000 "signatures" required to trigger a response, that becomes somewhat of a news item more likely to spill into the mainstream news, thus drawing some attention to whatever the issue is, which is always somewhat helpful. But certainly they are less effective than real protest, or real physical letters sent to lawmakers, so if done in lieu of those things then that's a problem.
- TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
  Yeah. Tell me about how that death star is going to go again? That's why these petitions are an utter joke.
pms 14y ago
I think these are actually one of the few things that can be done, showing the government, that there are many people unhappy about this case out there, and that something has to be changed. It's true, that these petitions are not big deals, but usually things don't change rapidly, it's a process, and cutting the arms that hurt us is it's first step. Obviously, most probably they won't get cut, but at least they won't get promoted, for God's sake. Unless you have another ideas of what to do?
neltnerb 14y ago
I am deeply worried about this too. I suspect that the data driven Obama administration has full capability to estimate the likelihood of citizens rioting, and determined that providing a "lazy" outlet for frustration would undermine real protest. It's like how facebook lets you complain about some horrible injustice, which makes you feel like you've done something even though you've done next to nothing. Very worried. Especially since I see it happening to me too. When we went to war in Iraq, I was out in the streets marching and holding protest signs. So was almost everyone I know. If we declared war on Iran, would the same happen? My bet is you'd see lots of complaining on facebook, and a petition to not go to war. Maybe emailed letters to representatives in congress. But actual street protests? No way, we can just let anonymous annoy some people for us.

gesman 14y ago

We need another one: "To return all taxpayer's money wasted on prolonged witch hunt fueled by personal egoic ambitions"

numbsafari 14y ago
Only if it's followed up with a petition to "return all taxpayer money wasted on egoic pranks". There was always a way forward to achieving Aaron's goals that didn't involve sneaking around. Whether he was right or wrong, he knew on some level that what he was doing was, at the very least, inappropriate and potentially harmful. If not, then why attempt to hide his face? If not, why even do it at all? It's a sad and unfortunate fact that Aaron didn't found Demand Progress before he decided to do what he did. It's a sad and unfortunate fact that he will never have his day in court, or the opportunity to plead for mercy by showing that he'd learned his lesson and founded Demand Progress in an effort to take a better, more rational path to achieving his goals. And it's a sad and unfortunate fact that we are wasting time on silly petitions that single out individuals rather than investing all that time and effort into changing the laws they were using against Aaron so that this kind of abuse never happens again. Instead, a bunch of young people are going to go out and do rash and ill considered things in the defense of someone who did a rash and ill considered thing and likely end up facing a similar, if not worse fate than he did. It's a sad and unfortunate thing that, despite all of the collective intelligence on this and many other forums, there are very few adults willing to stand up and say "don't do rash and ill considered things unless you are willing to deal with the consequences". Young people are prone to making bad choices, we should neither encourage them, nor seek to punish them disproportionately.
- gesman 14y ago
  >>sad and unfortunate fact that we are wasting time on silly petitions that single out individuals rather than >>investing all that time and effort into changing the laws Please elaborate on your track record in "investing time and effort into changing laws". Let these silly 30,000+ petition voters to learn from an expert.
- phaemon 14y ago

AnIrishDuck 14y ago

Am I the only one embarrassed by the blatant errors in that petition? The first sentence is a run-on grammatical non sequitor. The rest of the petition conveys a muddled thought process that seems blinded by outrage. Did the author even bother to proofread that thing before submitting it? There are plenty of other reasons to pass on this petition. That said, this displays less polish and thought than an email I typically send to my boss. I wouldn't blame the White House for ignoring a plea that reads more like a teenager's facebook rant. It certainly appears to have involved the same level of critical thinking.

olefoo 14y ago
As the author of the petition; I take responsibility for hitting the submit button, halfway through an edit. Sorry.
- neltnerb 14y ago
  I forgive you. (No, seriously, this bugged me too, but it's the sentiment that counts)
  - olefoo 14y ago
    I was in the midst of changing the tense; I should have written it in emacs and then copied it into the form once I was happy with it. So it goes. I'm actually wondering whether a more considered phrasing would have done worse. As it is the main goal of putting the headline into Barack Obama's eyeballs has been reached, and Ms. Ortiz knows that her boss is making the political calculation of whether she is a liability or an asset.
    - res0nat0r 14y ago
      Unfortunately this will come no where near close to the President's eyeballs. It will be reviewed and responded to by some low level staff group who has been tasked to wade thru all of the petitions (and nonsense like the Death Star) which get 25k votes.

agwa 14y ago

Though I'd like to see Oritz fired, and think she's deserving of it, the effort to get her fired is blinding us to a bigger problem and a proper solution. The system was broken long before Oritz and Swartz, but it wasn't until it affected someone we like that we noticed. But we're in a bubble, and the vast majority of Americans do not care who Aaron Swartz is, will not be affected by this tragedy like we were, and in general think that prosecutors need all the tools they can get to put "bad" people in prison. The American people love tough-on-crime policies, and it's not possible to publicly shame a public official, or get her fired, for doing something that most of the public supports. If we want to make change, we need to move the needle on the public's perception of crime. That's a hard problem, and it's not as easy as signing a petition, but it's a problem we'll never be able to solve if we're blinded by trying to exact vengeance on a prosecutor. Edited to add: if Oritz were likely to be fired, then I agree it would be a great starting point for a larger movement. But my point is that changing public opinion of tough-on-crime policies is a prerequisite for getting Oritz fired. A prosecutor is not going to be fired for engaging in normal conduct that is loved by the public, even if the outcome in this case was tragic.

BenoitEssiambre 14y ago
Even though getting officials fired is not your preferred method to help jumpstart reform there are no reasons for you to discourage others of doing so. If you think you have a better axis of attack on this problem, I beg you, please lead an effort on that axis. If we waited for a consensus on the best manner to proceed before doing anything, noting would ever get done. To make a comparison relevant to this community, imagine that HN was used to shame others starting businesses that don't use the best consensus methods or ideas. How many good startups would never see the day? With startups, more than 90% of attempts fail. I'm pretty sure that attempts at changing the system don't have better odds. If we reduce the efforts to a single attempt, there is 90% chances it will fail. Also, consider that special interests have probably built legal and political walls in the most obvious paths of change. It's worth trying all fronts to find a weakness especially the newer little known ones.
- philh 14y ago

crag 14y ago

Let me point out every prosecutor threatens the accused. Whether you were caught stealing gold or chewing gum. I doubt this "prosecutor" even knew the details of the "crime" or cared. I doubt she was ever briefed on the details of Aaron's life or cared too hear it. That's what she has assistants for. And that's the problem with the system. Prosecutors don't take time (except on TV) to learn about the accused. They just go straight for the throat. Be dammed the circumstances. It's not enough to go after one prosecutor. Change the system.

ceol 14y ago

I'm not sure what this petition is trying to accomplish. Do you think, should the President fire Ms Ortiz, she would be replaced by someone completely different? Her actions are a reflection of the entire justice system; the person who replaces her will continue with the same bullying, "String 'em up in Town Square"-style tactics as she did. Everything will continue as it has been, but now the affluent, Bay-area 20-somethings who were originally so outraged will kick up their feet and go back to not caring about the justice system because they think they effected some sort of change. I was so surprised with the HN community's response. So many people saw that Aaron had committed suicide and thought, with their ninja-rockstar-hacker intelligence, that we should go on a witch-hunt and burn Ms Ortiz at the stake. Doesn't that seem like the worst possible thing to do in a time when we have very little facts?

PrudenceYuris 14y ago
That is a curious argument. The point of this petition, and everything else done to remove Ortiz, Heymann, and Garland is that it is a repeatable process. Making a spectacular example of Ortiz et. al. is a first step, but it's a fine first step. Or put it this way, would we have as many lawyers willing to shield torture had John Yoo ended up delivering pizza for a living?
- ceol 14y ago
  I'm not seeing much to remove Heymann or Garland. There's another petition for Heymann, but that's not getting near as much traction as the Ortiz one, even when I've seen numerous commenters claim he was the one behind the case. What's going on with these petitions is exactly the tactic politicians use to calm the populace down when they're screaming for something to be done after a scandal or catastrophe. Removing Ortiz would give everyone the vengeance they desire but it wouldn't do a damn thing because the people qualified to replace her are all just like her.
  - PrudenceYuris 14y ago
    That's a good point regarding the petition, which is why direct action against these people should not be limited to signing the petition. Indeed, they should be harried out of their professional and private lives as thoroughly and relentlessly as they drove Swartz to suicide. Their lives should be made not worth living.

SagelyGuru 14y ago

I think this whole petition is a mistaken diversion. This issue is bigger than Ms. Ortiz. The fact is that she was only doing her job in the way that the Congress and the Administration very much expected her to do. Take this up with those who gave her the weapons: the laws she was using and the common procedures she was using. Take it up with those who very much wanted those weapons ready and used to silence an activist.

AnthonyMouse 14y ago
I agree with you. We must change the laws that allowed this to happen. But we can do both.

throwaway271 14y ago

Ortiz was nominated to her position by Obama in 2009. She resides in Milton, MA where it just so happens Gov Patrick, Obama's close personal friend also resides. She's well-connected and a double diversity quota. She's going nowhere.

PrudenceYuris 14y ago
Which is why efforts to end her career should go forward with as little restraint as her prosecution
smogzer 14y ago
Which is a eye opening to show the hipocrisy of the white house.

res0nat0r 14y ago

Why is there not this type of outpouring of rage and internet hate the last few days for someone who is seriously being railroaded: Bradley Manning. This is a person who has been locked up into solitary for months now and is being treated very inhumanely. Is it because he hasn't written any Python libraries and isn't visible in Silicon Valley?

mediacrisis 14y ago
Not that I agree with Bradley Mannings punishment, but I think a key difference is that he was not a civilian.
- mpyne 14y ago
  And unlike normal whistleblowers, he wasn't even aware of the contents of the vast majority of classified material he exfiltrated. Even at the level of "oh those are just diplomatic cables", those cables could just as easily have been "we need to focus on these nuclear weapons assemblies in Fooistan next" and tip off Islamist elements as to where to find their first dirty bomb, as of gossip about Berlusconi.
AnthonyMouse 14y ago
You are making a logical argument, but change doesn't come from logic. What you should change should come from logic, but the impetus -- the will -- comes from emotion. People need to be stirred up in order to act. That is human nature. And when the cause of that is a tragedy it breaks our hearts, but that is why we must work to make it so that this does not happen again. So argue that we should help Bradley Manning, or the inner city victims of the drug war, or children starving in Africa. But argue it somewhere else at some other time. Right now we have a cause. There are a large number of good people who want to fix this now. Let them. Help them. Because this needs to be fixed, and having a singular cause gives us focus. It puts success in reach, more than it is at any other time. You are not helping by distracting people with other serious problems -- all you are doing is making it less likely that anything gets done, by disheartening everyone with the scope of the problems we face. We do not have to fix every problem in the world at the same time. Now is the time to fix this one.

tcuk 14y ago

It's a sad day when the mob campaigns to end the career of someone who's simply doing there job, rather than causing change to the actual law that defines how they do the job. But this particular prosecutor was just a bully, right? Who had it out for Aaron out of personal hate, perhaps the Illuminati are involved also? The only other reasoning is she was just doing her job and prosecuting a man who broke the actual law, and showed traits of an activist who could be a repeat offender, and was trying to deter him from getting into more serious trouble in the future. A suspended sentence and a felony doesn't seem too bad if she was deterring him from something that could see him in jail 10 years with a plea bargain.

marshray 14y ago
No mob is trying to "end the career" of some mid-level public servant for whimsical reasons. The United States Attorney for the District of Massachusetts is not someone just "doing their job", it is a very high-level position appointed to serve the public interest. What people want is to prevent this person from abusing the power entrusted in them any further. Oh look, just last week Oritz declined to run for Governor. http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_politics/2013/01/carmen_ortiz_rules_out_gov_senate_run http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_politics/2013/01/...

SoftwareMaven 14y ago

This petition could be a ticket and an opportunity for the administration to begin such a change... Yeah, because we all know how well Obama's "change" went. How's gitmo going? What about those executive orders? Seen any drones in the Middle East or northern Africa lately? Surely there is no more cronyism in the White House or Justice Department. I realize not every promise can be kept, but I've never regretted a vote like I did the vote for him (not that I ever would have voted for McCain). The point is this administration has shown it could care less about change. Don't expect anything, much less anything positive, to come of this.

baggachipz 14y ago
> this administration ... could care less about change So, in fact, they DO care about change then?
tkahn6 14y ago
There's a difference between international and domestic security policy.

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glyphobet 14y ago

It is a shame that the petition to pardon Swartz has 1/10th of the signatures that the petition to fire Ortiz has. Let's advocate for a government that forgives (alleged) crimes as strongly as we advocate for a government that punishes people like Ortiz. http://twitpic.com/bvjjvz http://twitpic.com/bvjjvz https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/posthumously-pardon-aaron-swartz/DVpdmSBj https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/posthumously-pardo...

tkahn6 14y ago
Swartz is dead, so I don't know what pardoning him now would accomplish other than securing a useless symbolic 'victory'.
- mpyne 14y ago
  He can't even be pardoned; the charges were dropped. Even if the charges were somehow still in effect, the proper thing to do would be to have the charges dropped entirely. A pardon implies guilt, it simply commutes the sentence of the convicted.

zby 14y ago

Nothing like a good old scapegoating.

miguelrochefort 14y ago

What if she gets fired and kills herself? Will they go after us? It's a never ending war. We're all trying to punish people to give the exemple. Us trying to fire Ortiz is similar to Ortiz trying to prosecute Aaron Swartz.

marshray 14y ago
> Us trying to fire Ortiz is similar to Ortiz trying to prosecute Aaron Swart This is a democratic country. We get to campaign to replace our elected officials, and even the appointed ones too. It's our civic duty. Do you seriously think that's anything like a government official abusing their power in an attempt to imprison a highly-regarded citizen for years and years for downloading bulk articles from the university library?

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donniezazen 14y ago

Are non-citizens residents allowed to vote on these petitions?

mdxn 14y ago

This witch hunt is incredibly disturbing. Not only do these petitions blatantly exclude some fundamental principles of government and society, but they distracts greatly from where our focus should lie.

bjhoops1 14y ago

Aaaand they just raised the petition threshold to 100,000: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57564203-93/white-house-raises-petition-signature-threshold-to-100k/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57564203-93/white-house-rai...

pohl 14y ago
From looking the petition page, this petition may have been grandfathered-in. (It says "SIGNATURES NEEDED BY FEBRUARY 11, 2013 TO REACH GOAL OF 25,000: 0") https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-states-district-attorney-carmen-ortiz-office-overreach-case-aaron-swartz/RQNrG1Ck https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-stat...

ommunist 14y ago

Not yet. The threshold is 100K signatures per petition now.