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"Aaron died fighting for ______." Very upsetting to read sentiments like this. When you commit suicide, who do you die fighting for?

nsmartt 14y ago
It's being argued that his trial is a cause of his suicide. If so, his fight did lead him to his death.
OGinparadise 14y ago
Well, for one, alive he didn't generate this much press even though he was very popular. Now this is being debated virtually everywhere. Not saying that he killed himself for the cause but ironically he may have helped it
- rdl 14y ago
  There are definitely cases where suicide for a cause has been an effective strategy. It's still tragic. I don't think it's a justifiable strategy (particularly in Aaron's case -- he could have WON his court case. Even if he lost, and spent a year or a few years in jail (potentially out on appeal), he wouldn't have been dead, and could have continued the fight. However: Mohammed Bouazizi in Tunisia potentially kicked off the entire Arab Spring. There are ~500 self immolations by Buddhist monks in Asia who were part of getting the US to withdraw from the Vietnam war, etc. Maybe a hundred Tibetans in protesting China.
  - Pwnguinz 14y ago
    > Even if he lost, and spent a year or a few years in jail (potentially out on appeal), he wouldn't have been dead, and could have continued the fight. How optimistic of you. The chargest totaled over 50+ years in prison[0][1]. [0] http://lessig.tumblr.com/post/40347463044/prosecutor-as-bully http://lessig.tumblr.com/post/40347463044/prosecutor-as-bull... [1] http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-government-ups-felony-count-jstoraaron-swartz-case-four-to-thirteen.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-gov...
droithomme 14y ago
Suicide as an act of protest of brutality and injustice has a reasonably solid history of resulting in revolutions that toppled governments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc
- gosub 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Younger#Death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Younger#Death
- halviti 14y ago
  And still goes on regularly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation
rdtsc 14y ago
From what I understand from those much closer to him, the level and type harassment inflicted on him by prosecution played a significant role in his suicide. It is safe to say those closer to him know better than you or me or most people here. We want to find a simple trigger and point to it and say "it was depression for sure" or it was just "facing 50 years in jail" or any other thing singular thing. But it was probably not black and white, and not simple one thing to point a finger to as much as we may try. However it seems (to me at least) specific prosecution tactics have played a significant role in his decision. So I have no qualms saying they have some of his blood on their hands. Having to face 30+ years in prison, possibly abuse, rape and other things that come with it, not sure how clear I would be thinking even without a history of depression.
sophacles 14y ago
This is shockingly disingenuous. Akin to: "That cop didn't die in the line of duty, he died because medical technology couldn't prevent complications from a routine gunshot wound treatment". "That guy wasn't killed by the drunk driver. His car was on fire and he didn't get out fast enough". "The drugs didn't kill that junkie. His heart stopped beating and he didn't have a defibrillator handy." You are confusing proximate cause of death with an analysis of contributing factors and causality. I suspect you know this, as a quick comment history perusal shows you seem to follow causal chains in plenty of other cases just fine, including on the topic of suicide. So, what's your real point?
- codybrown 14y ago
  Wow. No. In each of the hypotheticals you give, the subject does not intend to take his own life. This is not the case for Aaron. There is something very upsetting about blaming the justice department then attempting to cast Aaron as a martyr. What kind of message does this send to young internet activists struggling to make their dent in the world? As you saw in my older HN comment on Ilya. Copycat suicides are a real phenomenon and some raw responses to them, however well intentioned, can make them more likely to occur. Department of Health Recommendations for Covering Suicide. Do not apportion blame. Do not give simple reasons. Do not glorify. http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/resource_media.pdf http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/resource... http://www.scribd.com/doc/126241/WHO-Media-Guide-for-Suicide-Reporting http://www.scribd.com/doc/126241/WHO-Media-Guide-for-Suicide...
  - sophacles 14y ago
    Nope, not even close to rational on your part. You can't say that people talking can be responsible for some more suicides, and in the same breath say other people talking (aka the justice department accusing someone and threatening with severe punishment) can't be responsible for an action. You are simply stating "I don't like to think this way, so I'm going to talk a bunch of illogical circles until it's too confusing to notice the cognitive dissonance". Further, you are setting up a false dilemma based on "choice of death". Further still, you are making a slippery slope argument about "how will this affect all the other activists". Oh and the post to health department recommendations is an appeal to authority. Finally, in the hypotheticals I give, 2 involve death stemming from a choice to partake in risky behavior.
PrudenceYuris 14y ago
Look to the Tunisian fruit merchant who self-immolated. Suicide as protest is with us today.

nsmartt 14y ago

It's being argued that his trial is a cause of his suicide. If so, his fight did lead him to his death.

OGinparadise 14y ago

Well, for one, alive he didn't generate this much press even though he was very popular. Now this is being debated virtually everywhere. Not saying that he killed himself for the cause but ironically he may have helped it

rdl 14y ago
There are definitely cases where suicide for a cause has been an effective strategy. It's still tragic. I don't think it's a justifiable strategy (particularly in Aaron's case -- he could have WON his court case. Even if he lost, and spent a year or a few years in jail (potentially out on appeal), he wouldn't have been dead, and could have continued the fight. However: Mohammed Bouazizi in Tunisia potentially kicked off the entire Arab Spring. There are ~500 self immolations by Buddhist monks in Asia who were part of getting the US to withdraw from the Vietnam war, etc. Maybe a hundred Tibetans in protesting China.
- Pwnguinz 14y ago
  > Even if he lost, and spent a year or a few years in jail (potentially out on appeal), he wouldn't have been dead, and could have continued the fight. How optimistic of you. The chargest totaled over 50+ years in prison[0][1]. [0] http://lessig.tumblr.com/post/40347463044/prosecutor-as-bully http://lessig.tumblr.com/post/40347463044/prosecutor-as-bull... [1] http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-government-ups-felony-count-jstoraaron-swartz-case-four-to-thirteen.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-gov...

droithomme 14y ago

Suicide as an act of protest of brutality and injustice has a reasonably solid history of resulting in revolutions that toppled governments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc

gosub 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Younger#Death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Younger#Death
halviti 14y ago
And still goes on regularly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation

rdtsc 14y ago

From what I understand from those much closer to him, the level and type harassment inflicted on him by prosecution played a significant role in his suicide. It is safe to say those closer to him know better than you or me or most people here. We want to find a simple trigger and point to it and say "it was depression for sure" or it was just "facing 50 years in jail" or any other thing singular thing. But it was probably not black and white, and not simple one thing to point a finger to as much as we may try. However it seems (to me at least) specific prosecution tactics have played a significant role in his decision. So I have no qualms saying they have some of his blood on their hands. Having to face 30+ years in prison, possibly abuse, rape and other things that come with it, not sure how clear I would be thinking even without a history of depression.

sophacles 14y ago

This is shockingly disingenuous. Akin to: "That cop didn't die in the line of duty, he died because medical technology couldn't prevent complications from a routine gunshot wound treatment". "That guy wasn't killed by the drunk driver. His car was on fire and he didn't get out fast enough". "The drugs didn't kill that junkie. His heart stopped beating and he didn't have a defibrillator handy." You are confusing proximate cause of death with an analysis of contributing factors and causality. I suspect you know this, as a quick comment history perusal shows you seem to follow causal chains in plenty of other cases just fine, including on the topic of suicide. So, what's your real point?

codybrown 14y ago
Wow. No. In each of the hypotheticals you give, the subject does not intend to take his own life. This is not the case for Aaron. There is something very upsetting about blaming the justice department then attempting to cast Aaron as a martyr. What kind of message does this send to young internet activists struggling to make their dent in the world? As you saw in my older HN comment on Ilya. Copycat suicides are a real phenomenon and some raw responses to them, however well intentioned, can make them more likely to occur. Department of Health Recommendations for Covering Suicide. Do not apportion blame. Do not give simple reasons. Do not glorify. http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/resource_media.pdf http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/resource... http://www.scribd.com/doc/126241/WHO-Media-Guide-for-Suicide-Reporting http://www.scribd.com/doc/126241/WHO-Media-Guide-for-Suicide...
- sophacles 14y ago
  Nope, not even close to rational on your part. You can't say that people talking can be responsible for some more suicides, and in the same breath say other people talking (aka the justice department accusing someone and threatening with severe punishment) can't be responsible for an action. You are simply stating "I don't like to think this way, so I'm going to talk a bunch of illogical circles until it's too confusing to notice the cognitive dissonance". Further, you are setting up a false dilemma based on "choice of death". Further still, you are making a slippery slope argument about "how will this affect all the other activists". Oh and the post to health department recommendations is an appeal to authority. Finally, in the hypotheticals I give, 2 involve death stemming from a choice to partake in risky behavior.

PrudenceYuris 14y ago

Look to the Tunisian fruit merchant who self-immolated. Suicide as protest is with us today.