8 ms·

It's easy to deride suicide but fact of the matter is that it is the final but a very powerful option we have at our disposal. Instead of saying that a particul

It's easy to deride suicide but fact of the matter is that it is the final but a very powerful option we have at our disposal. Instead of saying that a particular person should not have committed suicide, our hope should be that if a suicide happens, it is well thought through and is not done in haste. If a particular person decides that decades of painful life is much worse than simply ending the existence, who are we to question such a personal decision? Of course, if everything was alright, I would have loved to see Aaron existing in this world for many more years and do wonderful things but not knowing what led him to this step and how he judged the current/future life for himself. Simply commenting that he should not have committed suicide is being insensitive to a person who has already done so much great work for humanity. Life is not always better than no life. Context matters. A lot.

gfunk911 14y ago
You made me think. The idea that I have the option to end it makes life more bearable. Give it your best go and reevaluate.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  As Nietzsche put it: "The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night."
ck2 14y ago
What you are saying makes some sense if and only if it's a choice done NOT out of mental illness - ie. depression This news is horrifying and only sadness to me, I don't think it was a healthy choice. We really need to address the stigma of depression in this country and make it easy and painless to ask for help. That help should be free and readily available.
- daeken 14y ago
  As someone who's suffered from mental illness for most of his life, I disagree. While I have things largely under control these days, it had nothing to do with the professional help that was offered/forced on me; in fact, it was a huge impediment. Receiving help is not a panacea, and I can't blame anyone who's dealt with it for a long time for completely lacking hope. I don't think suicide is the answer, but I can at least see the point of view; after all, I could've seen myself going down the same path, if I hadn't figured out how to cope.
  - icelancer 14y ago
    Absolutely. The idea that all suicides can be prevented "if only he would have gotten help" is such a trite and simple answer to a complex question. Other comments like "What a waste" and "This didn't need to happen" are borderline insulting. Whether someone realizes it or not, those are incredibly disrespectful comments.
    - jacques_chester 14y ago
      It's not held that all suicides are preventable by treatment. But depressed persons who receive treatment are less likely to commit suicide. That's the bottom line. We can't save everyone. But we can save more than just letting it happen.
    - ck2 14y ago
      I have no illusion that therapy is magically going to stop all suicides. But might help get someone to next week or next month or next year where they might feel different about life. This is one of those things where you don't "do nothing because you cannot completely solve the problem". I do disagree though - suicides of the young/healthy are often a sad waste, depression needs perspective which you cannot find by simply looking in the mirror.
    - pretoriusB 14y ago
      >I have no illusion that therapy is magically going to stop all suicides. I think the very existence of "professional therapy" is a factor in FAVOR of depression and suicide. It means that as a society we have compartmentalised social life, so that the help one previously expected from his family/friends (and ultimately: from the way he can structure his life) is now to be had from paid professionals (or tacky volunteers).
      - pfortuny 14y ago
        Oh, no you do not understand at all. Depression cannot be dealt with just with an 'ordinary and structured life': it is an illness. It has existed always. The fact that there are specialists means that today, we have accepted is as what it its: a disease whose symptoms, professionals can, at least, try to decrease or even eliminate. Do not mistake 'tiredness', 'a season of bad temper', 'the normal stress during a crisis' with a real permanent disorder. Because you may make more harm than good. Really.
brainless 14y ago
I beg to differ from what you are saying. I do understand your point though, but let me give you another picture. And this I say from personal experience. People around the world go through tough times. For some the path is eased by good friends, family, "miracles", etc. For others the path becomes too difficult to tackle. In the end the person chooses not to fight any longer. As much as we should respect this decision, we should also remember that many people avoid that decision to end life and actually become happier in life. Sometimes you may be just an inch away from being saved. Every person who has every felt disturbed and suicidal and did not take the step, probably feels good about not taking the step. So if you ask me personally I would differ and say we should help each other till the last moment, never give up.
- icelancer 14y ago
  >Every person who has every felt disturbed and suicidal and did not take the step, probably feels good about not taking the step. This is the ultimate example of survivorship bias. Please don't use this line of "argument." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
  - daeken 14y ago
    Agreed! I'm incredibly glad I didn't commit suicide when things got bad and it was on the table. I would've missed so many amazing moments that have come since then, and I can only imagine I have many more in my future. But if I had done so, it's not as if I could've regretted it.
  - dlss 14y ago
    While brainless did commit the survivorship bias, I would consider you responding to what he said rather than what he meant to be attacking a strawman. In this case, lets consider all humans who ever considered suicide. Now, while it's true that we can only observe those who did not commit suicide, we do have a substantial amount of data on humans in general that we can work from. If this claim has you skeptical (ie "successful suicides are a separate reference class"), I will remind you we have data on suicidal people who were forcibly restrained, which you are encouraged to look up. So now let's look at the core of brainless' argument: people change with time. If you look at happiness rates for quadriplegic patients (or any of the hedonic treadmill research), you'll see that your happiness levels aren't so impacted by life events. This effect is present in both the population of completed suicides, and aborted suicides, and is likely a lot of the causal force brainless is trying to reference. Which is to say that it's highly likely that people who kill themselves counterfactually wish they didn't.
jacques_chester 14y ago
Context certainly matters. Depressed people are not perfectly rational agents. By the time you are contemplating suicide, it's not even close. And depression is a factor in almost every suicide. Depression is insidious because it makes all the alternatives to suicide seem much more difficult than they actually are.
- rohamg 14y ago
  This is right. I'm shocked at the "suicide apologists" in this thread.
  - jacques_chester 14y ago
    I'm not. Similar arguments come up every time. I am often accused in such discussions of being an offender against some wishy-washy personal development program ("just give depression a chance, what's the worst that could happen?"). Or of being a shill for some evil master-conspiracy to turn everyone into zombies. Or ... well lots of things, really. I honestly don't give a fuck. The results are in: Treatment. Saves. Lives. One of these days, someone will read one of my endless simple, spammy messages about seeking help and it will make them less likely to die, because they will get help. So you know what? I think I will keep going.
    - ahoyhere 14y ago
      Keep up the good work… seriously. Remember, depression lies, so it's no surprise that people argue against you simply trying to help a fellow human being.
  - alan_cx 14y ago
    I'm shocked at "life bullies". Which lets face it is a Christian rule, and not applicable to all people. I would like to die right now. I'm just too cowardly. There is no simple switch to do it quickly and painlessly. No way to stop others being upset. No way to stop others discovering something that may scar them. I do not wish to mess up others. Why? I simply do not belong. I don't understand the human race at all, or the world that has been created. I want to leave, assuming I was ever part of it in the first place, which I don't think I was. Certainly not now. I want to shed my human slavery. This is rational. It, for me, is not a label like "depression". It a conclusion based on my observation and experience. I willingly concede that others may well be different. How ever, many may not be able or willing to express it, especially given the amount of disdain and patronisation fired carelessly at people who feel this way, by people's knee jerk, ill-considered "opinion". If you reply, be careful. Its too easy to be arrogant, ignorant and judgemental. Its too easy to trot out the usual tired incorrect tropes. Hearing or reading them just confirms conclusion. Counselling? Don't make me laugh. I seen a few, none had anything to say. Nothing I had not already considered. Last one I tried packed it in after I left her with no where to go and she realised her profession was at best cosmetic. And that is all people have to offer, well, that or drugs. Oh yeah, be drugged up. That solves it all. Well, it might for people with things like chemical imbalances, but they do nothing by put thinkers to sleep. Right now? I'm just waiting for it to all end peacefully, or at least quickly. Sorry if this doesn't fit. But then, neither do I.
ismarc 14y ago
When I was first going through what turned into a very long diagnostic phase for some mental health (let's call them) oddities, every person involved at any stage asked, every time I talked to them, whether I had thought of suicide. At one point, I had been asked about it so much I actually started contemplating if I were to kill myself, how would I do it (mind you, this wasn't wanting to, or even entertaining the notion, but me going "Why not actually think through the reality of it?"). I came to the decision that if I were to ever kill myself, I would stab myself in the heart with a knife. Yes, it would be excruciatingly slow and painful (can't quickly stab yourself and dodge ribs, have to drive the blade extremely deep to get the heart, etc.), but it would serve a singular purpose: to signal that it wasn't a quick decision, to absolve people from feeling like there was something more they could have done and to remove all doubt about how strongly I felt about making the particular decision. When I explained this to the psychiatrist next time I was asked, his response was along the lines of "Do you think someone would be capable of that?" And the only response I had was "If they wanted to end it all that badly, yes". All this as a long ways to get around to saying: I disagree with anything that may consider suicide appropriate in any situation as one persons personal decision and situation becomes an example or model that someone in a similar situation could look to. But, I also don't think anyone should say a particular person should not have committed suicide. Instead, what should be said is a particular person should not have felt the need to commit suicide.
stiff 14y ago
It seems to me that in majority of cases suicide is simply the final symptom of a mental illness that was not or could not be treated and in that the situation is not that different from one in which someone dies for example from cancer. I don't think anyone is really saying that "he should not have committed suicide", what would that even mean really anyway, but it's OK to be sad that we don't always know how to more effectively help people in such cases.
alanctgardner2 14y ago
I understand what you mean, but it's the kind of logic I can only follow when I'm actually feeling suicidal. "This is a rational decision, it's not a bad thing to do, society has stigmatized it but I have a right". But (for me) a few days later, the weight just sort of lifts, and suddenly it seems like a really terrible, selfish idea again. I know it'll come back, and I dread that, but in the meantime I can't consider that it would have a been a reasonable choice. Things feel very real and very logical at the time, but looking back it's hard to understand why.

gfunk911 14y ago

You made me think. The idea that I have the option to end it makes life more bearable. Give it your best go and reevaluate.

pretoriusB 14y ago
As Nietzsche put it: "The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night."

ck2 14y ago

What you are saying makes some sense if and only if it's a choice done NOT out of mental illness - ie. depression This news is horrifying and only sadness to me, I don't think it was a healthy choice. We really need to address the stigma of depression in this country and make it easy and painless to ask for help. That help should be free and readily available.

daeken 14y ago
As someone who's suffered from mental illness for most of his life, I disagree. While I have things largely under control these days, it had nothing to do with the professional help that was offered/forced on me; in fact, it was a huge impediment. Receiving help is not a panacea, and I can't blame anyone who's dealt with it for a long time for completely lacking hope. I don't think suicide is the answer, but I can at least see the point of view; after all, I could've seen myself going down the same path, if I hadn't figured out how to cope.
- icelancer 14y ago
  Absolutely. The idea that all suicides can be prevented "if only he would have gotten help" is such a trite and simple answer to a complex question. Other comments like "What a waste" and "This didn't need to happen" are borderline insulting. Whether someone realizes it or not, those are incredibly disrespectful comments.
  - jacques_chester 14y ago
    It's not held that all suicides are preventable by treatment. But depressed persons who receive treatment are less likely to commit suicide. That's the bottom line. We can't save everyone. But we can save more than just letting it happen.
  - ck2 14y ago
    I have no illusion that therapy is magically going to stop all suicides. But might help get someone to next week or next month or next year where they might feel different about life. This is one of those things where you don't "do nothing because you cannot completely solve the problem". I do disagree though - suicides of the young/healthy are often a sad waste, depression needs perspective which you cannot find by simply looking in the mirror.
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    >I have no illusion that therapy is magically going to stop all suicides. I think the very existence of "professional therapy" is a factor in FAVOR of depression and suicide. It means that as a society we have compartmentalised social life, so that the help one previously expected from his family/friends (and ultimately: from the way he can structure his life) is now to be had from paid professionals (or tacky volunteers).
    - pfortuny 14y ago
      Oh, no you do not understand at all. Depression cannot be dealt with just with an 'ordinary and structured life': it is an illness. It has existed always. The fact that there are specialists means that today, we have accepted is as what it its: a disease whose symptoms, professionals can, at least, try to decrease or even eliminate. Do not mistake 'tiredness', 'a season of bad temper', 'the normal stress during a crisis' with a real permanent disorder. Because you may make more harm than good. Really.

brainless 14y ago

I beg to differ from what you are saying. I do understand your point though, but let me give you another picture. And this I say from personal experience. People around the world go through tough times. For some the path is eased by good friends, family, "miracles", etc. For others the path becomes too difficult to tackle. In the end the person chooses not to fight any longer. As much as we should respect this decision, we should also remember that many people avoid that decision to end life and actually become happier in life. Sometimes you may be just an inch away from being saved. Every person who has every felt disturbed and suicidal and did not take the step, probably feels good about not taking the step. So if you ask me personally I would differ and say we should help each other till the last moment, never give up.

icelancer 14y ago
>Every person who has every felt disturbed and suicidal and did not take the step, probably feels good about not taking the step. This is the ultimate example of survivorship bias. Please don't use this line of "argument." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
- daeken 14y ago
  Agreed! I'm incredibly glad I didn't commit suicide when things got bad and it was on the table. I would've missed so many amazing moments that have come since then, and I can only imagine I have many more in my future. But if I had done so, it's not as if I could've regretted it.
- dlss 14y ago
  While brainless did commit the survivorship bias, I would consider you responding to what he said rather than what he meant to be attacking a strawman. In this case, lets consider all humans who ever considered suicide. Now, while it's true that we can only observe those who did not commit suicide, we do have a substantial amount of data on humans in general that we can work from. If this claim has you skeptical (ie "successful suicides are a separate reference class"), I will remind you we have data on suicidal people who were forcibly restrained, which you are encouraged to look up. So now let's look at the core of brainless' argument: people change with time. If you look at happiness rates for quadriplegic patients (or any of the hedonic treadmill research), you'll see that your happiness levels aren't so impacted by life events. This effect is present in both the population of completed suicides, and aborted suicides, and is likely a lot of the causal force brainless is trying to reference. Which is to say that it's highly likely that people who kill themselves counterfactually wish they didn't.

jacques_chester 14y ago

Context certainly matters. Depressed people are not perfectly rational agents. By the time you are contemplating suicide, it's not even close. And depression is a factor in almost every suicide. Depression is insidious because it makes all the alternatives to suicide seem much more difficult than they actually are.

rohamg 14y ago
This is right. I'm shocked at the "suicide apologists" in this thread.
- jacques_chester 14y ago
  I'm not. Similar arguments come up every time. I am often accused in such discussions of being an offender against some wishy-washy personal development program ("just give depression a chance, what's the worst that could happen?"). Or of being a shill for some evil master-conspiracy to turn everyone into zombies. Or ... well lots of things, really. I honestly don't give a fuck. The results are in: Treatment. Saves. Lives. One of these days, someone will read one of my endless simple, spammy messages about seeking help and it will make them less likely to die, because they will get help. So you know what? I think I will keep going.
  - ahoyhere 14y ago
    Keep up the good work… seriously. Remember, depression lies, so it's no surprise that people argue against you simply trying to help a fellow human being.
- alan_cx 14y ago
  I'm shocked at "life bullies". Which lets face it is a Christian rule, and not applicable to all people. I would like to die right now. I'm just too cowardly. There is no simple switch to do it quickly and painlessly. No way to stop others being upset. No way to stop others discovering something that may scar them. I do not wish to mess up others. Why? I simply do not belong. I don't understand the human race at all, or the world that has been created. I want to leave, assuming I was ever part of it in the first place, which I don't think I was. Certainly not now. I want to shed my human slavery. This is rational. It, for me, is not a label like "depression". It a conclusion based on my observation and experience. I willingly concede that others may well be different. How ever, many may not be able or willing to express it, especially given the amount of disdain and patronisation fired carelessly at people who feel this way, by people's knee jerk, ill-considered "opinion". If you reply, be careful. Its too easy to be arrogant, ignorant and judgemental. Its too easy to trot out the usual tired incorrect tropes. Hearing or reading them just confirms conclusion. Counselling? Don't make me laugh. I seen a few, none had anything to say. Nothing I had not already considered. Last one I tried packed it in after I left her with no where to go and she realised her profession was at best cosmetic. And that is all people have to offer, well, that or drugs. Oh yeah, be drugged up. That solves it all. Well, it might for people with things like chemical imbalances, but they do nothing by put thinkers to sleep. Right now? I'm just waiting for it to all end peacefully, or at least quickly. Sorry if this doesn't fit. But then, neither do I.

ismarc 14y ago

When I was first going through what turned into a very long diagnostic phase for some mental health (let's call them) oddities, every person involved at any stage asked, every time I talked to them, whether I had thought of suicide. At one point, I had been asked about it so much I actually started contemplating if I were to kill myself, how would I do it (mind you, this wasn't wanting to, or even entertaining the notion, but me going "Why not actually think through the reality of it?"). I came to the decision that if I were to ever kill myself, I would stab myself in the heart with a knife. Yes, it would be excruciatingly slow and painful (can't quickly stab yourself and dodge ribs, have to drive the blade extremely deep to get the heart, etc.), but it would serve a singular purpose: to signal that it wasn't a quick decision, to absolve people from feeling like there was something more they could have done and to remove all doubt about how strongly I felt about making the particular decision. When I explained this to the psychiatrist next time I was asked, his response was along the lines of "Do you think someone would be capable of that?" And the only response I had was "If they wanted to end it all that badly, yes". All this as a long ways to get around to saying: I disagree with anything that may consider suicide appropriate in any situation as one persons personal decision and situation becomes an example or model that someone in a similar situation could look to. But, I also don't think anyone should say a particular person should not have committed suicide. Instead, what should be said is a particular person should not have felt the need to commit suicide.

stiff 14y ago

It seems to me that in majority of cases suicide is simply the final symptom of a mental illness that was not or could not be treated and in that the situation is not that different from one in which someone dies for example from cancer. I don't think anyone is really saying that "he should not have committed suicide", what would that even mean really anyway, but it's OK to be sad that we don't always know how to more effectively help people in such cases.

alanctgardner2 14y ago

I understand what you mean, but it's the kind of logic I can only follow when I'm actually feeling suicidal. "This is a rational decision, it's not a bad thing to do, society has stigmatized it but I have a right". But (for me) a few days later, the weight just sort of lifts, and suddenly it seems like a really terrible, selfish idea again. I know it'll come back, and I dread that, but in the meantime I can't consider that it would have a been a reasonable choice. Things feel very real and very logical at the time, but looking back it's hard to understand why.