5 ms·

Ask HN: Where can I learn meditation and mindfulness without the bullshit?

14 points by xycodex 14y ago

espeed 14y ago
Read the book "Mindfulness in Plain English," by Bhante Gunaratana
xycodex 14y ago
I'm looking for resources and training that doesn't involve any religion or new-agey bullshit. There seems to be quite a bit of research indicating some meditation is good, but it's hard to find anything that doesn't have some religious/unscientific BS component.
pseudorocker 14y ago
I had the same attitude you do (not a criticism, just a fact) and I enrolled in a mindfulness course in grad school. I, too, an not very spiritual, and I tried my best, to no avail. I think some personalities types are more prone to embrace it than others. That said, yoga DOES work for me, because I approach it as a physical activity, with calmness involved. I'd recommend trying yoga. Take classes with a few different instructors, to find one that "works" for you.
- xycodex 14y ago
  You had? Has your attitude changed? What changed it?
  - pseudorocker 14y ago
    Sorry for the late followup. I had and still have. Sloppy wording on my part :)
jmole 14y ago
Learn from yourself. Seriously, for a while, the more I read the more dogmatic I would be about meditation. I would avoid Eckhart Tolle at all costs, he is imprecise with language and his forced separation of "observer mind" from "ego mind" clashes greatly with my materialistic point of view. He has some nice ideas, but frankly this forced separation is extremely misleading. I could write a whole blog post on the problems I have with it, but it boils down to one fact: our mind, ego, thoughts and feelings are inseparable from each other. There is one consciousness, and my goal in meditation is to focus my consciousness on my consciousness. To watch the machine at work, so to speak. It doesn't involve shifting to a higher form of consciousness, it just involves becoming conscious of your own thoughts, feelings, and senses, and realizing that these are all components in the machinery of your mind. Once you establish this, once you can focus on the sensation of sensing, the automatic nature of thought, or the inevitability of feelings, you become enlightened without really trying to. You realize that judgement is unnecessary, that the machinery is working exactly as it should be, and the "trouble spots" in the machine are not problems with the mechanism itself, but instead are an overreaction by the conscious mind to a perceived threat. By observing the machinery without judging, you help eliminate harmful negative feedback loops that only worsen problems. The common phrase in neurobiology is that "neurons that fire together, wire together". Instead of focusing on a particular negative sensation or thought, and the pain it causes you, you can simply observe the negative sensation or thought as it is: the machine doing exactly what it evolved to do. In non-meditative thought, we see pain, recognize it as a harm to us, and the feedback loop grows as all the neurons associating this negative impulse with pain begin to fire. The goal in meditation is to simply observe. Not to follow the path of problem solving. There is no problem. Your mind is working exactly as it evolved to. Simply watch it work, do not judge it, and you will find that the big problems you think you have are essentially trivial. All that said, I would highly recommend Deepak Chopra's Seven Laws of Spiritual Success. http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Spiritual-Laws-Success-Fulfillment/dp/1878424114 http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Spiritual-Laws-Success-Fulfillme...
- crazydiamond 14y ago
  A very good post but I don't understand your dissing of ET. Where does he separate the mind into "observer mind". He certainly does say "observer" or maybe even observing consciousness. | I could write a whole blog post on the problems I have with it, but it boils down to one fact: our mind, ego, thoughts and feelings are inseparable from each other. Who said they were separate ? I agree that sometimes Tolle does use terms which may not be real such as "pain body" ( I also did not like it when I first read Power of Now) but I understand that he creates these terms more to help understand something. | he is imprecise with language I don't think you can be precise in this particular case. When you speak of something which is actually the subject, and not an object, where there is no subject-object separation, then it is very difficult to be precise. Let me give you an example from your own post: | There is one consciousness, and my goal in meditation is to focus my consciousness on my consciousness Who is this "my" who has a goal in meditation and even more importantly when you say "my consciousness" then whose consciousness is this you speak of. Are you some other entity who has a consciousness ? Let me clarify that I am _not_ a Tolle follower, I follow self-enquiry, but I have found Tolle's PON to be a great book that I been able to appreciate _after_ having reached some measure of "presence".
  - jmole 14y ago
    I don't have the book at hand now, or I could make a better example here, but I'll give it a shot. The trouble I had was with dissociating my thinking mind, or Tolle's ego, with that of the observer mind; in reality, and materially, they are one and the same. As I remember, he draws a sharp demarcation between the two types of mind, labeling the egoic mind as a sort of curse on humanity. To me, his egoic mind parses as the rational mind, or the thinking mind. Therefore, his dismissal of this aspect of our consciousness leaves much to be desired in my case. I mean how am I supposed to read and understand his book, written in English, without the aid of a rational mind? Perhaps it's because I didn't make it past the first few pages that I didn't understand his message, but I found Chopra much more accessible in this regard. As to your question here: "Who is this "my" who has a goal in meditation" The my is me; all of me. Not just the observing me, not just the thinking me, or the feeling me, but the inseparable combination of the three.
orangethirty 14y ago
When you say without the BS, what do you mean? Do you folow a certain religion (or not)? Explain, please.
crazydiamond 14y ago
I think first of all I'd like to know why you want to learn meditation, are you expecting something. Although, I myself don't believe in getting lost in books and concepts, however at some stage you may find it motivating or helpful to read a bit of what others who have been down this path have to say. I've been in this for a decade and here are some helpful works that are easily available online and free. YMMV. In no particular order, works of Nisargadatta Maharaj (esp I am That), Michael Langford (awareness watching awareness), books on mindfulness (already linked below). A very approachable book has been Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. I follow self-enquiry (Sri Ramana Maharshi) but sadly that is 'lost in translation' and wrongly/poorly explained everywhere. I find Langford's online book to be very motivating although my technique varies from his.
DanBC 14y ago
You could try searching the UK NHS (national health service) websites. There's probably some PCAT[1] (primary care assessment & treatment) team that has stuff for download. There's also 'Books on Prescription' which should have lists of reasonable books. Unfortunately, this isn't going to avoid all the bullshit, but will steer you past most of it. EDIT: (http://www.backontrack.nhs.uk/mindfulness-meditation/ http://www.backontrack.nhs.uk/mindfulness-meditation/) And also the self help section. [1] short term treatment, 8 weeks, for people with mild mental health problems.
swanson 14y ago
I've been using http://www.getsomeheadspace.com/ http://www.getsomeheadspace.com/ for the past 2 weeks and it's pretty good. No religion or chi/chakra bullshit. Good mobile app. Free to try the "Take 10" program. I like it because it's <10 minutes from sign up to sitting and doing the first meditation, instead of having to go off and read a book first.
argonz 14y ago
"Mindfulness in Plain English" is very concise but still touch tangentially interesting "why" questions.
david_b 14y ago
Mindfulness in Plain English is good - there is some weird stuff in it (something about levitation) but it is a very minor part and the rest is solid. It's free: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html If you need more guidance get the MBSR/MBCT (I did the latter) book + audio tracks from Jon Kabat-Zinn - it takes all the buddhism out and teaches just meditation and mindfulness (and little bits of yoga). MiPE was the first book I got, but the guidance of 'sit down, listen and follow this program' really helped me get on my butt. Edit: I can't find the levitation part in MiPE - but there was _something_
xycodex 14y ago
Are there any organizations where one can connect with people who do this?
- xycodex 14y ago
  ie, meditation classes, etc I find that I don't learn that much by reading books.
  - david_b 14y ago
    That depends on where you are: there are many retreat centers worldwide: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/FrontPage?p_r_p_185834411_title=FrontPage#section-FrontPage-RetreatCentersAndPlacesToPractice http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki... http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/category/11915 http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/messa... S.N. Goenka runs a lot of retreat centers worldwide - but those seem to be a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to quality of instruction and treatment of participants. They partially run on donations and I've read at least one account where people had to listen to talk of 'you would feel so much better if you donate money' (not exactly that but close to it). There actually isn't that much to learn about meditation - the hardest part is actually staying with it.
mbubb 14y ago
Zencast podcast. Find lectures bu Gils Fronsdahl. He is a Buddhist practitioner and I have found him to be an excellent resource.
moocow01 14y ago
Take an MBSR class (mindfulness based stress reduction). There usually is at least one certified active practitioner in most major cities. The class lasts about 6-8 weeks and is in my opinion much more effective than anything you can do by reading books or listening to tapes. I found the 10% of the class was learning the techniques and 90% was sharing the struggles and challenges of applying the techniques with others.
orionblastar 14y ago
Start here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ You still have to learn Buddhist terms, but they cut out the political BS and other crap. Basically suffering is caused by desire and attachment, remove the desire and attachment and you remove suffering. Replace the suffering with compassion and empathy for all living things and you are on your way to mindfulness and Nirvana.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

14 points by xycodex 14y ago

Read the book "Mindfulness in Plain English," by Bhante Gunaratana

I'm looking for resources and training that doesn't involve any religion or new-agey bullshit. There seems to be quite a bit of research indicating some meditation is good, but it's hard to find anything that doesn't have some religious/unscientific BS component.

pseudorocker 14y ago

I had the same attitude you do (not a criticism, just a fact) and I enrolled in a mindfulness course in grad school. I, too, an not very spiritual, and I tried my best, to no avail. I think some personalities types are more prone to embrace it than others. That said, yoga DOES work for me, because I approach it as a physical activity, with calmness involved. I'd recommend trying yoga. Take classes with a few different instructors, to find one that "works" for you.

xycodex 14y ago
You had? Has your attitude changed? What changed it?
- pseudorocker 14y ago
  Sorry for the late followup. I had and still have. Sloppy wording on my part :)

jmole 14y ago

Learn from yourself. Seriously, for a while, the more I read the more dogmatic I would be about meditation. I would avoid Eckhart Tolle at all costs, he is imprecise with language and his forced separation of "observer mind" from "ego mind" clashes greatly with my materialistic point of view. He has some nice ideas, but frankly this forced separation is extremely misleading. I could write a whole blog post on the problems I have with it, but it boils down to one fact: our mind, ego, thoughts and feelings are inseparable from each other. There is one consciousness, and my goal in meditation is to focus my consciousness on my consciousness. To watch the machine at work, so to speak. It doesn't involve shifting to a higher form of consciousness, it just involves becoming conscious of your own thoughts, feelings, and senses, and realizing that these are all components in the machinery of your mind. Once you establish this, once you can focus on the sensation of sensing, the automatic nature of thought, or the inevitability of feelings, you become enlightened without really trying to. You realize that judgement is unnecessary, that the machinery is working exactly as it should be, and the "trouble spots" in the machine are not problems with the mechanism itself, but instead are an overreaction by the conscious mind to a perceived threat. By observing the machinery without judging, you help eliminate harmful negative feedback loops that only worsen problems. The common phrase in neurobiology is that "neurons that fire together, wire together". Instead of focusing on a particular negative sensation or thought, and the pain it causes you, you can simply observe the negative sensation or thought as it is: the machine doing exactly what it evolved to do. In non-meditative thought, we see pain, recognize it as a harm to us, and the feedback loop grows as all the neurons associating this negative impulse with pain begin to fire. The goal in meditation is to simply observe. Not to follow the path of problem solving. There is no problem. Your mind is working exactly as it evolved to. Simply watch it work, do not judge it, and you will find that the big problems you think you have are essentially trivial. All that said, I would highly recommend Deepak Chopra's Seven Laws of Spiritual Success. http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Spiritual-Laws-Success-Fulfillment/dp/1878424114 http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Spiritual-Laws-Success-Fulfillme...

crazydiamond 14y ago
A very good post but I don't understand your dissing of ET. Where does he separate the mind into "observer mind". He certainly does say "observer" or maybe even observing consciousness. | I could write a whole blog post on the problems I have with it, but it boils down to one fact: our mind, ego, thoughts and feelings are inseparable from each other. Who said they were separate ? I agree that sometimes Tolle does use terms which may not be real such as "pain body" ( I also did not like it when I first read Power of Now) but I understand that he creates these terms more to help understand something. | he is imprecise with language I don't think you can be precise in this particular case. When you speak of something which is actually the subject, and not an object, where there is no subject-object separation, then it is very difficult to be precise. Let me give you an example from your own post: | There is one consciousness, and my goal in meditation is to focus my consciousness on my consciousness Who is this "my" who has a goal in meditation and even more importantly when you say "my consciousness" then whose consciousness is this you speak of. Are you some other entity who has a consciousness ? Let me clarify that I am _not_ a Tolle follower, I follow self-enquiry, but I have found Tolle's PON to be a great book that I been able to appreciate _after_ having reached some measure of "presence".
- jmole 14y ago
  I don't have the book at hand now, or I could make a better example here, but I'll give it a shot. The trouble I had was with dissociating my thinking mind, or Tolle's ego, with that of the observer mind; in reality, and materially, they are one and the same. As I remember, he draws a sharp demarcation between the two types of mind, labeling the egoic mind as a sort of curse on humanity. To me, his egoic mind parses as the rational mind, or the thinking mind. Therefore, his dismissal of this aspect of our consciousness leaves much to be desired in my case. I mean how am I supposed to read and understand his book, written in English, without the aid of a rational mind? Perhaps it's because I didn't make it past the first few pages that I didn't understand his message, but I found Chopra much more accessible in this regard. As to your question here: "Who is this "my" who has a goal in meditation" The my is me; all of me. Not just the observing me, not just the thinking me, or the feeling me, but the inseparable combination of the three.

orangethirty 14y ago

When you say without the BS, what do you mean? Do you folow a certain religion (or not)? Explain, please.

crazydiamond 14y ago

I think first of all I'd like to know why you want to learn meditation, are you expecting something. Although, I myself don't believe in getting lost in books and concepts, however at some stage you may find it motivating or helpful to read a bit of what others who have been down this path have to say. I've been in this for a decade and here are some helpful works that are easily available online and free. YMMV. In no particular order, works of Nisargadatta Maharaj (esp I am That), Michael Langford (awareness watching awareness), books on mindfulness (already linked below). A very approachable book has been Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. I follow self-enquiry (Sri Ramana Maharshi) but sadly that is 'lost in translation' and wrongly/poorly explained everywhere. I find Langford's online book to be very motivating although my technique varies from his.

DanBC 14y ago

You could try searching the UK NHS (national health service) websites. There's probably some PCAT[1] (primary care assessment & treatment) team that has stuff for download. There's also 'Books on Prescription' which should have lists of reasonable books. Unfortunately, this isn't going to avoid all the bullshit, but will steer you past most of it. EDIT: (http://www.backontrack.nhs.uk/mindfulness-meditation/ http://www.backontrack.nhs.uk/mindfulness-meditation/) And also the self help section. [1] short term treatment, 8 weeks, for people with mild mental health problems.

swanson 14y ago

I've been using http://www.getsomeheadspace.com/ http://www.getsomeheadspace.com/ for the past 2 weeks and it's pretty good. No religion or chi/chakra bullshit. Good mobile app. Free to try the "Take 10" program. I like it because it's <10 minutes from sign up to sitting and doing the first meditation, instead of having to go off and read a book first.

argonz 14y ago

"Mindfulness in Plain English" is very concise but still touch tangentially interesting "why" questions.

david_b 14y ago

Mindfulness in Plain English is good - there is some weird stuff in it (something about levitation) but it is a very minor part and the rest is solid. It's free: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html If you need more guidance get the MBSR/MBCT (I did the latter) book + audio tracks from Jon Kabat-Zinn - it takes all the buddhism out and teaches just meditation and mindfulness (and little bits of yoga). MiPE was the first book I got, but the guidance of 'sit down, listen and follow this program' really helped me get on my butt. Edit: I can't find the levitation part in MiPE - but there was _something_

xycodex 14y ago

Are there any organizations where one can connect with people who do this?

xycodex 14y ago
ie, meditation classes, etc I find that I don't learn that much by reading books.
- david_b 14y ago
  That depends on where you are: there are many retreat centers worldwide: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/FrontPage?p_r_p_185834411_title=FrontPage#section-FrontPage-RetreatCentersAndPlacesToPractice http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki... http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/category/11915 http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/messa... S.N. Goenka runs a lot of retreat centers worldwide - but those seem to be a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to quality of instruction and treatment of participants. They partially run on donations and I've read at least one account where people had to listen to talk of 'you would feel so much better if you donate money' (not exactly that but close to it). There actually isn't that much to learn about meditation - the hardest part is actually staying with it.

mbubb 14y ago

Zencast podcast. Find lectures bu Gils Fronsdahl. He is a Buddhist practitioner and I have found him to be an excellent resource.

moocow01 14y ago

Take an MBSR class (mindfulness based stress reduction). There usually is at least one certified active practitioner in most major cities. The class lasts about 6-8 weeks and is in my opinion much more effective than anything you can do by reading books or listening to tapes. I found the 10% of the class was learning the techniques and 90% was sharing the struggles and challenges of applying the techniques with others.

orionblastar 14y ago

Start here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ You still have to learn Buddhist terms, but they cut out the political BS and other crap. Basically suffering is caused by desire and attachment, remove the desire and attachment and you remove suffering. Replace the suffering with compassion and empathy for all living things and you are on your way to mindfulness and Nirvana.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]