5 ms·

Firing somebody in the UK is very difficult. No matter how aggravated he is, if the law is not on his side then there's nothing he can do.

sergiosgc 14y ago
Firing people in Portugal is also hell, but loopholes exist in every law; I'm sure it's not different in the UK. My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO) Speak to a lawyer, though. IANAL, obviously.
- elithrar 14y ago
  > My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO) You can't retroactively apply "breach of trust" in this situation though, and promoting him with the intention of firing him (which would be obvious) won't help your case.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
I am not familiar at all with UK law, in California you can show someone the door because they hum out of tune if you want, its the other side of the 'right to work' thing. But if you, or someone reading, knows UK law, is there anything that prevents you from renting an separate office with a telephone and re-assigning him to work in that office? Still pay him and all but just keep him out of the way where he can't do any more damage.
- njs12345 14y ago
  The UK has restrictions on why you can fire people (unlike CA which is at will), but they're largely quite fair (IMO). See https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/overview https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/overview
  - martythemaniak 14y ago
    According to that link you can be fired for "Gross Misconduct", which seems about right in this case.
    - ramtamtam 14y ago
      I don't see how screwing around has anything to do with professional conduct.
- asveikau 14y ago
  > in California you can show someone the door because they hum out of tune if you want, Really? So you can show them the door for anything then? In California, can you fire someone for their racial background? For their gender? For their age? Religion? Family status? I suspect a lot of this thread is just a bunch of software types pretending to know what the law is (myself included). Best advice on this whole discussion: talk to a lawyer.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
njs12345 14y ago
IANAL, but I'm fairly sure a tribunal would look quite favourably on a company which fired someone for adultery when it had destroyed working relationships. I think it would come under the 'gross misconduct' provision.
chernevik 14y ago
If the OP cannot legally fire this guy then it is time to depart that jurisdiction. Law prevents the OP from just shooting the bastard, and rightly so. We surrender whatever right we may have to fight and kill on own our behalf, in return for protection from others and enforcement of just outcomes. The point is to remove our personal biases from interpretation of "just". But if the sovereign jurisdiction won't allow this guy to fire someone who has done this, then its "law" has departed from its proper functions and can't be relied upon. I don't know what it is doing, but it isn't overseeing justice. I wouldn't wait to find out how it goes wrong next. I'd just leave.
- onetwothreefour 14y ago
  Oh please, leave the jurisdiction? With his 30-40 employees? I'm sure he's gonna get right on that. The guy is fireable in any country.
  - elithrar 14y ago
    > The guy is fireable in any country. Not at all. As aforementioned, you can't legally fire him in the UK (or Australia). Doing so would immediately welcome a legal battle with Fair Work (in Australia) and your chances of winning that one are slim to none.
    - clarky07 14y ago
      I'm not familiar with the law in the UK. Could someone fill me in? I'm confused as to how someone can be forced to continue to give money to someone that they don't want to continue giving money to? What if I decide I can't afford those employees because we aren't making enough money? Surely I can close down the business if I want to, effectively firing everyone?
      - bzbarsky 14y ago
        > What if I decide I can't afford those employees because > we aren't making enough money? Then in various jurisdictions you have to prove that. In court. See item 1 of http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/28/world/europe/28iht-letter.html http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/28/world/europe/28iht-letter.... and this sort of thing is not limited to France. The US setup of at-will employment looks just as weird on that side of the Atlantic, I'm told, as theirs does to us. I can't tell you what the setup is with being able to close down a business. It wouldn't terribly surprise me if there are legal hurdles to that too.
richardjordan 14y ago
As someone who's worked in HR in the UK (albeit 15 years ago) and hired and fired people there I can see zero reason to not fire the guy.
- mrtron 14y ago
  As someone who considered law in his teens 15 year ago, I see zero reason to consider this valid legal advice.
  - richardjordan 14y ago
    as someone who never claimed it to be legal advice I fail to see why you SHOULD consider it valid legal advice doesn't mean I wouldn't fire the guy's ass because I have yet to see a plausible argument for what negative legal consequences might befall me if I did

sergiosgc 14y ago

Firing people in Portugal is also hell, but loopholes exist in every law; I'm sure it's not different in the UK. My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO) Speak to a lawyer, though. IANAL, obviously.

elithrar 14y ago
> My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO) You can't retroactively apply "breach of trust" in this situation though, and promoting him with the intention of firing him (which would be obvious) won't help your case.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

I am not familiar at all with UK law, in California you can show someone the door because they hum out of tune if you want, its the other side of the 'right to work' thing. But if you, or someone reading, knows UK law, is there anything that prevents you from renting an separate office with a telephone and re-assigning him to work in that office? Still pay him and all but just keep him out of the way where he can't do any more damage.

njs12345 14y ago
The UK has restrictions on why you can fire people (unlike CA which is at will), but they're largely quite fair (IMO). See https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/overview https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/overview
- martythemaniak 14y ago
  According to that link you can be fired for "Gross Misconduct", which seems about right in this case.
  - ramtamtam 14y ago
    I don't see how screwing around has anything to do with professional conduct.
asveikau 14y ago
> in California you can show someone the door because they hum out of tune if you want, Really? So you can show them the door for anything then? In California, can you fire someone for their racial background? For their gender? For their age? Religion? Family status? I suspect a lot of this thread is just a bunch of software types pretending to know what the law is (myself included). Best advice on this whole discussion: talk to a lawyer.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

njs12345 14y ago

IANAL, but I'm fairly sure a tribunal would look quite favourably on a company which fired someone for adultery when it had destroyed working relationships. I think it would come under the 'gross misconduct' provision.

chernevik 14y ago

If the OP cannot legally fire this guy then it is time to depart that jurisdiction. Law prevents the OP from just shooting the bastard, and rightly so. We surrender whatever right we may have to fight and kill on own our behalf, in return for protection from others and enforcement of just outcomes. The point is to remove our personal biases from interpretation of "just". But if the sovereign jurisdiction won't allow this guy to fire someone who has done this, then its "law" has departed from its proper functions and can't be relied upon. I don't know what it is doing, but it isn't overseeing justice. I wouldn't wait to find out how it goes wrong next. I'd just leave.

onetwothreefour 14y ago
Oh please, leave the jurisdiction? With his 30-40 employees? I'm sure he's gonna get right on that. The guy is fireable in any country.
- elithrar 14y ago
  > The guy is fireable in any country. Not at all. As aforementioned, you can't legally fire him in the UK (or Australia). Doing so would immediately welcome a legal battle with Fair Work (in Australia) and your chances of winning that one are slim to none.
  - clarky07 14y ago
    I'm not familiar with the law in the UK. Could someone fill me in? I'm confused as to how someone can be forced to continue to give money to someone that they don't want to continue giving money to? What if I decide I can't afford those employees because we aren't making enough money? Surely I can close down the business if I want to, effectively firing everyone?
    - bzbarsky 14y ago
      > What if I decide I can't afford those employees because > we aren't making enough money? Then in various jurisdictions you have to prove that. In court. See item 1 of http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/28/world/europe/28iht-letter.html http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/28/world/europe/28iht-letter.... and this sort of thing is not limited to France. The US setup of at-will employment looks just as weird on that side of the Atlantic, I'm told, as theirs does to us. I can't tell you what the setup is with being able to close down a business. It wouldn't terribly surprise me if there are legal hurdles to that too.

richardjordan 14y ago

As someone who's worked in HR in the UK (albeit 15 years ago) and hired and fired people there I can see zero reason to not fire the guy.

mrtron 14y ago
As someone who considered law in his teens 15 year ago, I see zero reason to consider this valid legal advice.
- richardjordan 14y ago
  as someone who never claimed it to be legal advice I fail to see why you SHOULD consider it valid legal advice doesn't mean I wouldn't fire the guy's ass because I have yet to see a plausible argument for what negative legal consequences might befall me if I did