5 ms·

If a language's popularity was closely dependent on library support, then (in your opinion) why hasn't Clojure gained mass adoption?

sigzero 14y ago
I would say "can be closely dependent". And for a LISP, it is doing pretty darn well.
jgrahamc 14y ago
My comment boils down to the logical statement NOT has large initial library => NOT gain widespread use You seem to be making a logical error based on a common problem with people's understanding of modus tollens: http://blog.jgc.org/2009/05/frequently-misunderstood-logic-modus.html http://blog.jgc.org/2009/05/frequently-misunderstood-logic-m... It is NOT the case that from my statement that it's possible to derive: has large initial library => gain widespread use
- asdfologist 14y ago
  It's a lot simpler to say "large initial library is necessary but not sufficient for widespread use".
  - gwern 14y ago
    Or "all successful languages have large initial libraries, but not all languages with large initial libraries will be successful".
jimbokun 14y ago
Relative to Arc, it certainly has.
aidenn0 14y ago
It's easily the most successful lisp in over 20 years. How popular do you want it to be?
stesch 14y ago
People who would like to use Clojure or Scale aren't fans of Java. And if you aren't a fan of Java, chances are good that you aren't a fan of the JVM, too. I'm already using something else. Why should I use the Java eco-system?
- chc 14y ago
  I don't see why this should be. It sounds a bit irrational. From my perspective, Java is an iffy language and Java programs are often nightmarish to read. But the JVM? I see no reason why my feelings about Java and its culture should color my opinion of the JVM. The JVM is a technical marvel. It runs Ruby faster than Ruby with far less effort. It supports a whole host of very different languages, many of them quite good. And it's just blazing fast (modulo startup speed). There are other valid choices, of course, and the JVM is obviously not the optimal choice for every project, but I think it's fallacious to rag on the JVM just because its most popular language isn't to your taste. In short: Java bad. JVM very good.
- bascule 14y ago
  I gained most of my expertise about the JVM running Ruby apps on it with JRuby (and after that, Clojure). I started out something of a Java-hater and eventually came around to kind of sort of liking Java (although I'd certainly rather write Ruby in the overwhelming majority of cases)
- fogus 14y ago
  > People who would like to use Clojure > or Scale aren't fans of Java. I object to the word "fan", but I understand your meaning. Regardless, I love Clojure and like Java just fine.
jasim 14y ago
Clojure IMO is gaining great mindshare as a practical Lisp, especially given how recent it is. I don't think anybody expects it to become as mainstream as Java. But it does attract programmers unfamiliar with FP, but whose appetite for languages higher in the power continuum has been whetted by languages like Ruby. My colleague Steve presented a talk at RubyConf India titled 'Why Clojure is my favourite Ruby' which might appeal to such people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCdEbUBk6a0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCdEbUBk6a0

sigzero 14y ago

I would say "can be closely dependent". And for a LISP, it is doing pretty darn well.

jgrahamc 14y ago

My comment boils down to the logical statement NOT has large initial library => NOT gain widespread use You seem to be making a logical error based on a common problem with people's understanding of modus tollens: http://blog.jgc.org/2009/05/frequently-misunderstood-logic-modus.html http://blog.jgc.org/2009/05/frequently-misunderstood-logic-m... It is NOT the case that from my statement that it's possible to derive: has large initial library => gain widespread use

asdfologist 14y ago
It's a lot simpler to say "large initial library is necessary but not sufficient for widespread use".
- gwern 14y ago
  Or "all successful languages have large initial libraries, but not all languages with large initial libraries will be successful".

jimbokun 14y ago

Relative to Arc, it certainly has.

aidenn0 14y ago

It's easily the most successful lisp in over 20 years. How popular do you want it to be?

stesch 14y ago

People who would like to use Clojure or Scale aren't fans of Java. And if you aren't a fan of Java, chances are good that you aren't a fan of the JVM, too. I'm already using something else. Why should I use the Java eco-system?

chc 14y ago
I don't see why this should be. It sounds a bit irrational. From my perspective, Java is an iffy language and Java programs are often nightmarish to read. But the JVM? I see no reason why my feelings about Java and its culture should color my opinion of the JVM. The JVM is a technical marvel. It runs Ruby faster than Ruby with far less effort. It supports a whole host of very different languages, many of them quite good. And it's just blazing fast (modulo startup speed). There are other valid choices, of course, and the JVM is obviously not the optimal choice for every project, but I think it's fallacious to rag on the JVM just because its most popular language isn't to your taste. In short: Java bad. JVM very good.
bascule 14y ago
I gained most of my expertise about the JVM running Ruby apps on it with JRuby (and after that, Clojure). I started out something of a Java-hater and eventually came around to kind of sort of liking Java (although I'd certainly rather write Ruby in the overwhelming majority of cases)
fogus 14y ago
> People who would like to use Clojure > or Scale aren't fans of Java. I object to the word "fan", but I understand your meaning. Regardless, I love Clojure and like Java just fine.

jasim 14y ago

Clojure IMO is gaining great mindshare as a practical Lisp, especially given how recent it is. I don't think anybody expects it to become as mainstream as Java. But it does attract programmers unfamiliar with FP, but whose appetite for languages higher in the power continuum has been whetted by languages like Ruby. My colleague Steve presented a talk at RubyConf India titled 'Why Clojure is my favourite Ruby' which might appeal to such people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCdEbUBk6a0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCdEbUBk6a0