14 ms·

Never Lie About Who You Really Are

292 points by antalkerekes 14y ago

noja 14y ago
Isn't the idea of "coming out" a bit old fashioned now? (Straight people don't "come out")
- EliRivers 14y ago
  It's as old-fashioned as a first kiss. It happens every day to a million different people.
  - noja 14y ago
    My question was why do gay people need to "come out", why does that make sense in 2013?
    - lmm 14y ago
      It's still not statistically normal, and it's still not immediately obvious. So there's always going to be a point where you tell people, and there's always the possibility of an off reaction, like when you mention that you have an unusual hobby. Add to that the fact that there's still a lot of judgement, and for some people it's easier to handle in a single conversation with everyone, and I think the coming out will be with us for some time yet.
      - noja 14y ago
        Why does it matter if it's statistically normal, or obvious? Why is there a point when you have to tell people? It seems counter to the equal rights argument.
        mtrimpe 14y ago
        You don't have to tell people, but you would naturally do so in the course of normal conversation (i.e. how's your wife doing?)
        precisioncoder 14y ago
        Sharing information about yourself is always a good idea and big news is often shared with a group of people. For instance when I decided to be a programmer I told everyone I could because it was a big thing for me. Later I learned that in order to avoid discrimination I had to describe myself as a software developer...
        AndrewDucker 14y ago
        If you've been hiding it for a long time because you're worried about the response you might get, then at some point you decide to tell others, then it's going to happen that way. And across a lot of the world, even in 2013, there's still a lot of negativity about homosexuality.
        king_jester 14y ago
        The point is that some people that come out may face immediate discrimination and possibly physical violence. Not everyone is tolerant of someone being gay and some of those people will take actions to fuck you over if you come out. Because of this, some people do not want to reveal that information and they have a right to do so.
        scarmig 14y ago
        A good friend of mine, living in SF, recently came out to his parents who live in suburban Colorado. His mom asked him the typical questions--"Are you sure? Have you tried dating girls? Are you sure you just haven't met the right one?" while his dad set quietly at the table. Then all of his sudden his dad broke into a yelling rage, in the middle of a packed brunch place, accused his son of being scrawny because of AIDS, and stormed out of the place. You really need to stop a second and try to see things from different perspectives.
        noja 14y ago
        You really need to stop a second and try to see things from different perspectives. Not if those perspectives are bigotry.
        jessaustin 14y ago
        I'm pretty sure that's not was what meant by GP. The story wasn't told so we would empathize with the shouting dad but so we'd be reminded of the son's situation.
    - danabramov 14y ago
      Well, at the very least their parents don't know. And it's not like all parents accept this easily.
    - InclinedPlane 14y ago
      Really? Look at a map of US states, wait, here's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.sv... Gay marriage is legal in only a few states. At the federal level it is explicitly excluded from the "full faith and credit" clause of the constitution. And in most states it is expressly illegal. More so, in some states homosexual acts are technically illegal and in theory punishable by jail time. There are a lot of folks who are extremely anti-gay. Who are publicly against not just gay marriage but the "gay lifestyle" and the very existence and/or acceptance of homosexuality. Not to mention friends and family members. According to statistics, as a gay man or woman you'd have roughly the same chance as a coin flip for each one of your friends or family on whether or not they would accept your homosexuality and consider it "morally acceptable". Those aren't the best odds. So yes, it's still kind of a big deal.
      - pfedor 14y ago
        More so, in some states homosexual acts are technically illegal and in theory punishable by jail time. No longer true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
- lmm 14y ago
  Up to a point, but in a lot of the world it's still necessary.
- mhurron 14y ago
  > (Straight people don't "come out") Well yes they do, it's just that they can do it by bringing home the boyfriend/girlfriend to meet the parents or whatever you want to consider normal first steps in expressing your sexuality. In a large part of the world though, probably most of the world where you can, if you are gay you basically have to explicit come out to your closest friends and relatives to get over whatever initial shock, embarrassment, anger, violence, or whatever may occur. Far too many don't take it well.
  - monochromatic 14y ago
    bringing home the boyfriend/girlfriend to meet the parents or whatever you want to consider normal first steps in expressing your sexuality Saying that this is "coming out" doesn't make it true.
    - jpxxx 14y ago
      But it is true, so think about it until you get it.
      - king_jester 14y ago
        Except it's totally not, being straight in most places in the world is the default and everyone is seen through a lens of being straight. Coming out refers to revealing to people that you are not straight.
        jpxxx 14y ago
        Fine, I'll yield the semantic argument. "Coming out" in the context of sexuality typically refers to homosexuals publicly expressing their preference for the first time and adjusting their public identity to match. I was attacking the idea that most aren't judged upon first expressing their sexual desires. It's important anywhere and everywhere. Bringing home a partner of a different color? Size? Class? "Looks"? Judgement is issued. In some cultures the kind of partner you're able to pull speaks directly to the honor or worth of the family. It's never not a big deal.
- rmc 14y ago
  Isn't the idea of "coming out" a bit old fashioned now? What do you mean? People still have to come out... (Straight people don't "come out") Depends. Some straight trans people have to come out as trans.
michaelfeathers 14y ago
In the UK I've run into people who use the term `partner' for whomever they are in a non-married exclusive relationship with, regardless of whether they are gay or straight. I don't know how common that is, or how it got started. I wonder whether it will ever catch on in the US?
- ionfish 14y ago
  It's pretty common in the UK these days.
  - thisone 14y ago
    Some people still give you weird glances and awkward pauses when you use it though. In situations where it doesn't matter (and that's most of them) I've stopped correcting people who assume we're married and I've taken my partner's surname. It actually makes things easier. If they assume you're married, they generally have no problem talking to you about whatever they called to talk to your partner about. When they find out you're not married, sometimes suddenly you can't be trusted.
    - agilebyte 14y ago
      But then it reinforces the belief there there aren't other options. Or rather, it does not show alternatives as more normal than one would assume. I guess that was the point of the article.
      - thisone 14y ago
        I can understand that, but I also don't like having to fight with a company rep because suddenly I'm not good enough to talk to. If they want to assume I'm Mrs so-so, rather than Ms so, partner of Mr so-so, and that gets me better service, then I don't correct them. If they ask directly, for whatever reason, I don't lie.
- gadders 14y ago
  It's common, but daft. It makes every relationship sound like a firm of solicitors. I don't see what's wrong with wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend.
jrochkind1 14y ago
Okay, how do you do what he's saying _without_ being the guy who bitches about everything and is all up in everyone's business thinking he knows better than everyone how to do their jobs?
- mtrimpe 14y ago
  It seems that you're also expecting other people to change. You can also just voice your opinion respectfully while still leaving room for everybody else's interpretation. It's the difference between "I don't agree." and "You're doing it wrong!"
- Confusion 14y ago
  I wondered about that as well. His example of standing up for the truth is easy, because it is simply undeniably true that he is gay and his partner is a man. He can correct wrong assumptions from the comfortable position of what is actually the case in 'reality'. Unfortunately, in most cases the truth you want to defend is in the gray of philosophy, ethics, politics, aesthetics, where you yourself may even agree something isn't a universal truth. Then you're not defending the truth: you are preaching.
- SatvikBeri 14y ago
  You don't. That's why successful executives often seem like jerks[0]. It's very important to question everything and ask "Why don't we do X instead of Y?" 90% of the time there really will be a good reason for Y, but that other 10% of the time pointing it out will stop a really stupid mistake. Plus, the 90% of the time that you're wrong, you learn something. If you're really lucky, you're in a company where feedback doesn't seem personal, and everyone can feel free to question everything. If not, then you just have to play the part of the jerk to ensure some level of quality. [0]: http://bhorowitz.com/2012/10/17/making-yourself-a-ceo/ http://bhorowitz.com/2012/10/17/making-yourself-a-ceo/
- toddmorey 14y ago
  In any situation, you don't want to be the lone wolf of honesty. Your company or team needs a culture of honesty. It's simpler than you realize. Have a conversation, make an event out of it. Say, "Look, for this to work, we have to be outspoken and honest. Our success depends on it. It will be uncomfortable at times. It will be frustrating at others. But there's no reason to invest this much, to work this hard, just to stop short of honesty. If you can take a startup, you can take honest feedback. And we should all expect a ton of it." The TechStars program does this really well. They promise you brutal honesty. They tell you to brace for it. You are guaranteed to be told when your idea sucks. You can see this in practice each week as the teams present their pitches. Because honesty is the expectation, the quietest guy in the room will raise his hand and say, "For the first ten minutes, I had no freaking clue what you were talking about." Ouch! But the permission was there. The guy wasn't a jerk, he was embracing the culture. And you know what? It needed to be said. In the early days, Rackspace had a saying: "Bad news first, full disclosure, no surprises." More than a slogan, it was permission to be honest. People would say, "It sucks to bring this up, but as we say, bad news first and full disclosure..." Again, amazingly effective. People want to be honest. And in the end, they want you to be honest, too. There just needs to be permission.
Jabbles 14y ago
Just because you shouldn't have to lie about it, doesn't make it good advice to never lie about it. There are, sadly, many places in the US (and many in the rest of the world) where expressing your true self will cause you (physical/emotional) harm. If you live in such a place, be careful.
- borplk 14y ago
  such place? planet Earth.
- AnthonyJoseph 14y ago
  Be careful. Sound advice in any situation. But, most things I have found that are the right thing to do cause physical/emotional harm, at least in the short term.
- brudgers 14y ago
  I'm not a Baptist. Or any stripe of Christian. Or Jew. Or some other checkbox on the list of tolerable beliefs. I live in Alabama. There's a price. Impeded relationships. Reduced opportunity. Yet, the emotional harm of lying about who am is significantly greater than what one person can inflict upon another. Because like truth, that harm is permanent. People inclined to fuck up someone because they are different, don't deserve a free pass. It is their fucking up which is uncivil, not my choice to abstain from praising Jesus before eating chicken fingers at a business lunch.
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    >Yet, the emotional harm of lying about who am is significantly greater than what one person can inflict upon another. Because like truth, that harm is permanent. What about if there's no harm? What if you ENJOY lying about who you are? Or, in another twist, what if lying about who you are opens a new world to you, and makes you a different person, perhaps even who you lied about being in the first place? (In the sense that you invent a new identity for yourself, like a Nothern Jewish family boy like Robert Zimmerman emerged into scene as the "wretched hobo poet" Bob Dylan).
kvnn 14y ago
"Your ability to stand up for your truth is a muscle, and the more you exercise it the stronger it gets." His attitude is commendable and helpful in a lot of different situations: - people with stand-out religious beliefs - people with strict diets - people who don't drink It makes me very appreciative that I don't have anxieties over anything that would require me to correct people or divulge personal information. Being gay in his situation, and in general having anxieties attached to information you must always carry, is a pain in the ass. This might be a good reason to act "flaming" (when its an act): get the information out there immediately. I do that in certain situations too.
exit 14y ago
> First, know what you're coming out about. Identify your truths. Write a personal values manifesto. You can't know if your values are being violated if you're ambiguous about what they are. most people would come out about the fact that they don't give a shit about the value of the product their employer produces. many would have to admit they delight in sabotaging the system they hate.
- civilian 14y ago
  "I enjoy rebelling against authority, and I will make fun of you for not knowing how to type formulas in excel." I'm looking forward to my next interview.
jpwagner 14y ago
I hope I'm not insensitive, but if I'm having a bad day and my cab driver (or just about any total stranger) asks "how is your day" I am not compelled to tell him about the intricacies of being me. It's not about fighting for "the truth", it's simply practical. This is generally how to behave for all matters of sex, politics, religion, and anything else personal. Small talk is small talk.
- danabramov 14y ago
  If I were gay, and if I came out once, I wouldn't feel comfortable inventing a wife for the sake of a conversation with a cab driver, every single time.
  - jpwagner 14y ago
    If I'm having a bad day and a stranger asks "how's your day," I don't invent a good day.
    - danabramov 14y ago
      Yeah but your day is not something that differs you from the most people, something that many people don't accept, something that you probably have been humiliated for. You're not a “faggot” in high school because you had a bad day. It's something you chose to accept and tell your friends and parents and see some people sneer at you. I think that pretending to have a wife for the sake of smalltalk feels like going into the closet again, like admitting you must be guilty of something.
      - jiggy2011 14y ago
        Why would you need to invent a wife? Usually when you are making small talk with someone who you will most likely only be in the company of for 5 minutes they are more interested in avoiding awkward silence than actually finding out details about your life. If you don't bring up a wife they will just as easily assume that you are single or divorced as much as gay. Besides , people who work in a public facing role like a cab driver or florist will most likely meet gay people all the time and won't find it the slightest bit novel.
nerdfiles 14y ago
I'm not so sure this advice is generally applicable. At the same time, I understand the author probably doesn't mean for it to be, but maybe that is a problem with the inherent vagueness of language. I don't care to do philosophy of language here. When I behave as I truly am, stuff like this applies: [quote] b) Poor Understanding of Social Situations: Their good verbal skills enable adults with WS to initiate superficial social contacts. However, they tend to lack understanding of the underlying, 'unwritten' rules governing all types of social intercourse. They are often too open, direct or personal in their interactions with others, and do not recognize the social constraints that would be apparent to other people in the same situation. In other cases their social naivetŽ and lack of inhibition can lead them to tell tales or to say things that might hurt or embarrass other people. Such behaviour is rarely intentional or malicious, but occurs because the individual may not understand the social implications of his or her utterances. Similarly, adults with WS will not hesitate to try and gain other peoples' attention with comments and questions, or to reprimand others. Consequently they may give the impression of being rude, bossy or attention seeking, which again may antagonize others if they are not fore-warned. -- ADULTS WITH WILLIAMS SYNDROME: GUIDELINES FOR EMPLOYERS & SUPERVISORS By Orlee Udwin, Mark Davies, Chris Stinton & Patricia Howlin [/quote] Generally I get asked if I'm stoned or something like this, when I'm only trying to be myself. And if I tell people about my Williams (like my heart conditions and other obvious elfish features, including psychological), it doesn't matter how much truth or scientific backing or reading I bring to the table. Given the linguistic problematic of Williams, everyone just gets frustrated since there is the unfortunate problem that if you self-diagnose, and talk about it, you have to present symptoms/evidence/whatever-makes-you-think-you're-X in a sequential fashion. I'm learning that this hypermetropolitan-supraurban lifestyle is too fast-paced for a conversational exchange where Demonstration is feasible in conversation. It's like presenting evidence has been restricted to purely scientific settings. It's unfortunate.
- gadders 14y ago
  I had no idea that was even a thing. I have learnt something new today.
  - nerdfiles 14y ago
InclinedPlane 14y ago
It's so easy to compromise, or cover up. I see it all the time in software dev. For every dev who cares enough to pursue an issue diligently to its root cause there are a dozen other devs who are perfectly willing to patch up symptoms of deeper problems or jump to faulty conclusions without bothering to seriously understand what's going on. Everyone wants the quick fix. They want the pain (the bugs, tickets, pages, scrutiny, etc.) to stop. And it's easy to say that something is "almost done" or "mostly done" when in reality there are huge roadblocks in the way. It's hard to tell people you're struggling with a problem, or that you don't know how to do something, or that you don't know the meaning of a word your coworker just used, or you don't understand exactly what they're saying. It's easier to avoid embarrassment in the short-term even if it makes everything harder in the long-term.
- jrogers65 14y ago
  > It's so easy to compromise, or cover up. I see it all the time in software dev. For every dev who cares enough to pursue an issue diligently to its root cause there are a dozen other devs who are perfectly willing to patch up symptoms of deeper problems or jump to faulty conclusions without bothering to seriously understand what's going on. Everyone wants the quick fix. They want the pain (the bugs, tickets, pages, scrutiny, etc.) to stop. There's a word for these types of people - 'liabilities'.
  - epochwolf 14y ago
    There's another word for these people: management.
fallous 14y ago
Seems to me this suffers from the lack of defining "lie", be it of omission, commission, or in the case of simply remaining silent whether one has committed any act at all. If I say "the product is GREAT!" when I believe it to be otherwise, then I'm very obviously lying by commission and that's obviously not a good thing. I do however often cause social consternation when I don't engage in the usual "white lie" that is generally accepted as "correct" for many people. "Do these pants make me look fat?" asked by wife elicits a truthful answer, which she's used to but many who witness the exchange are not. A lie of omission would be something on the order of "is the product ready for market?" with a response of "we've done focus groups and the response was positive" leaving out some useful information like "positive by +.1%", which would be a valuable piece of information to have for the questioner but one in which the respondent does not want to provide since it would probably negate the response. Remaining silent seems to me often to be none of the above. CEO declares a new initiative, I may at first blush disagree but lacking any real information or thought-out objection, and also understanding that he may have more information than I and certainly a different set of responsibilities, I remain silent rather than blurt out an objection with no real argument with which to back it up. My silence in this instance is neither an endorsement nor an objection.
unquietcode 14y ago
I have been reading HN for half a year without ever bothering to login, but this post was so inspiring for me that I had to chime in and say 'thanks'. Never compromise. This is just what I needed. As well, I really like the muscle metaphor. :)
ForrestN 14y ago
I'm gay and this analogy is strained and opportunistic. The charged moment when you're buying flowers for a same-sex partner is charged psychologically, not because of external fears. I live in a very liberal city, and there's almost zero chance I'm going to get bullied by the lady at the flower shop. It's charged because of how I grew up, because of the other people who made me feel like an outsider or a freak, because of what it means more broadly that the world, even this city, is set up for other people. None of that comes into complaining about the speakers being on the wrong side of a TV. True, you can use slippery language to say that these are both "standing up for truth" or something, but in reality the motives behind each gesture are totally different. Standing up for quality as a person in a supply chain might be admirable, but it is not a "coming out" and it is not emotionally charged in the same way that revealing your homosexuality, over and over again, still is. He talks to the cab driver because not doing so would mean rejecting himself. You mention the speakers because you want your company to do well and you're frustrated that the person who's job it is missed something blatant.
- Falling3 14y ago
  I'm straight... and I agree the analogy is strained. I do want to disagree a bit with your last sentence. In my experience, people don't care too much about excelling at their jobs for the sake of their company. Of course there are some exceptions, especially at the upper rungs, but for the most part people do what they need to in order to get by. If the product is good enough and you're not going to take the heat for it, you don't say anything. I've also noticed that the ones that are willing to speak up and ensure that a product/service/experience is top notch are the ones who have an internal drive to do so. My high school chemistry teacher was very fond of the phrase, "Take pride in your work". It's probably one of the most helpful bits of advice I've ever received.
- chris123 14y ago
  Whether his analogy could have been better or not is besides the point, IMHO. Not sure I get what you mean by analogy being "opportunistic." He used it in his introduction. It worked for me. In fact, that's an example a good use case. Anyways, I guess it's just a difference of opinion, which is fine and interesting. Cheers :)
gizzlon 14y ago
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but is he telling us that we should try to be offended? I'm referring to the second to last paragraph: You can't know if your values are being violated if you're ambiguous about what they are. Second, learn to develop a sixth sense for when your line is being crossed. It may be a gut feeling. A nervous laugh. A habit of rationalizing. Maybe I'm reading too much into it because some people (especially in the media) seems to set out to be offended, and they're really annoying. Of course there are many valid reasons to be offended and we (as individuals and societies) should treat everyone with respect and try to offend no-one. But it is possible to be too easily offended, and I'm afraid one might end up in that category by following his advice.
typicalrunt 14y ago
People have the misconception that a gay person comes out once. It's not true. If you're gay and you're authentic, you're coming out constantly. You're on a business trip, for example. A cab driver asks if you have kids, and you say that you do. Then he asks about your wife. Even though you may be exhausted, you find yourself summoning the energy to have a transformative conversation with a total stranger on whom you are depending to get to the airport and whose reaction you have no way of predicting. The author's own situation is clouding his judgement. It is entirely easy to predict that asking if you have kids is going to lead to asking about a wife. This is the way family life has gone on for centuries. It's only recently (in generational terms) that gay couples could adopt children or even be openly gay and married... yet the author thinks that there's no way to predict how someone is going to steer a conversation. I wouldn't take offense if someone steered a conversation in the wrong way because it's more about their reaction to the surprise news ("oh, i have a husband not a wife") than to how the conversation found itself. Maybe I perhaps steered the conversation the wrong way instead of the cab driver. As an aside: I had to rewrite this many times because I didn't want to come off as being homophobic, discriminatory, or what have you. I really don't like walking on egg shells, but some topics really cause other people to pounce.
- latinohere 14y ago
  I'm getting tired of my current HN account so let me trash it. Fuck Gays. I'm Jose Gutierres from the Bronx in case you want to beat me up. There, no more walking on egg-shells. In all seriousness, being too PC is also harmful. I'm not homophobic but really dislike that you cannot have a conversation without somebody getting but hurt. And to finish it off. Fuck muslims, hindus, christians, mexicans, jews, scientologists, hispanics, etc. If you feel I left you out then fuck you too.
  - Dylan16807 14y ago
    Your account is a week old with 9 posts!
    - laMaquinaVerde 14y ago
crikli 14y ago
The inference of this paragraph bugs me: "Last week, the pest control guy came to the door. "Are you Mr. Smith?" he says. "No, I'm Mr. Pallotta, Mr. Smith's partner," I reply. "Partner?" he asks. I'm being questioned in my own home. "Yes, partner," I answer. "We're a gay couple." "Oh," he says, trying to process this and maintain his composure." The writer assumes that because the pest control guy doesn't immediately grasp the context of the word "partner" and questions it that he's being interrogated. Then he assumes that the pest control guys is somehow disturbed by the open admission of sexuality and is trying to maintain composure. There's a good chance these perceived slights are in Mr. Pallotta's head; he's misinterpreting the pest control guy's confusion as some type of muted bigotry. There's a lot of ambiguity when the word "partner" is used. I run a business with a partner, so when someone says they're someone's partner, my brain assumes it's meant in a business context because that's the world I spend 95% of my time in. When I'm informed otherwise, I'm sure there's a noticeable hesitation as my brain processes the change of context from business to relational and re-establishes the rules of social interaction from "this is so-and-so's business partner" to "this is so-and-so's significant other." It's definitely not because I'm "disturbed by the open admission of sexuality and am trying to maintain composure."
- nollidge 14y ago
  Yeah, I agree! I bet the pest control didn't actually say those exact words, either! You know, I wonder if there actually was a pest control guy at all--I bet it was really a plumber! Man, I just can't trust this author at all anymore. Thanks for pointing this out. Thanks also for explaining the ambiguity of the English language to all of us, as well as some of the really interesting machinations people sometimes go through for conversational hesitation. It's information very few people realize and really contributed a lot to the discourse here on HN.
  - RobotCaleb 14y ago
    Why do I feel like your comment is dripping in sarcasm?
    - 14y ago
jmole 14y ago
Wish I'd seen this a bit earlier. I read a great article today from Leo Babauta from Zen Habits on essentially the same topic. Set a value system, and stick to it. That's exactly what this author is encouraging. I think it's unfortunate that the context the author chose to illustrate the point is distracting to many, but it doesn't change the validity of his message. Check out the article from Leo here at Zen Habits: http://zenhabits.net/12rules/ http://zenhabits.net/12rules/
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
straws 14y ago
Well, this thread is a new low.
silentmars 14y ago
Big fan of this article. The world asks us to sell out our integrity for such a pittance on almost a daily basis. "Convenience," "convention," "getting along." These are the meager rewards for our silent assent. It's great motivation to read someone standing up and saying "stop it. Your integrity is worth more." Need the reminder sometimes.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
So many people missing the point of the gay analogy in this thread and once again, at the mere hint of the concept of privilege, people race to get defensive and shut their ears before even understanding the issue at play; further showing that people continue to have knee-jerk reactions to the phrase "privilege" just as some think that "feminism" = "hates men" instead of "wants gender equality". To explain further, there's two issues: 1. That my sexuality is a topic that I constantly have to correct people on. It hurts because of internalized homophobia from two decades of growing up in the Midwest. It hurts because it's a constant reminder that I'm a minority and that people make incorrect assumptions about me. It hurts because it's annoying. I had a friend that would introduce me as "DriveBy, my gay friend". That's the sort of feeling I get when I have to stop and say "No, I'm gay". Hell, I even have some awkward feeling when it's someone I suspect is homophobic because I don't want to make them uneasy. 2. When I correct people on my sexuality, I've challenged their assumptions. I've changed their perspective and reminded them that not everyone is straight, even the people that "oh my god, I never would have guessed". This isn't about "shoving sexuality in peoples' faces". It's not about evangelizing LGBT issues every day just to force it.

292 points by antalkerekes 14y ago

noja 14y ago

Isn't the idea of "coming out" a bit old fashioned now? (Straight people don't "come out")

EliRivers 14y ago
It's as old-fashioned as a first kiss. It happens every day to a million different people.
- noja 14y ago
  My question was why do gay people need to "come out", why does that make sense in 2013?
  - lmm 14y ago
    It's still not statistically normal, and it's still not immediately obvious. So there's always going to be a point where you tell people, and there's always the possibility of an off reaction, like when you mention that you have an unusual hobby. Add to that the fact that there's still a lot of judgement, and for some people it's easier to handle in a single conversation with everyone, and I think the coming out will be with us for some time yet.
    - noja 14y ago
      Why does it matter if it's statistically normal, or obvious? Why is there a point when you have to tell people? It seems counter to the equal rights argument.
      - mtrimpe 14y ago
        You don't have to tell people, but you would naturally do so in the course of normal conversation (i.e. how's your wife doing?)
      - precisioncoder 14y ago
        Sharing information about yourself is always a good idea and big news is often shared with a group of people. For instance when I decided to be a programmer I told everyone I could because it was a big thing for me. Later I learned that in order to avoid discrimination I had to describe myself as a software developer...
      - AndrewDucker 14y ago
        If you've been hiding it for a long time because you're worried about the response you might get, then at some point you decide to tell others, then it's going to happen that way. And across a lot of the world, even in 2013, there's still a lot of negativity about homosexuality.
      - king_jester 14y ago
        The point is that some people that come out may face immediate discrimination and possibly physical violence. Not everyone is tolerant of someone being gay and some of those people will take actions to fuck you over if you come out. Because of this, some people do not want to reveal that information and they have a right to do so.
      - scarmig 14y ago
        A good friend of mine, living in SF, recently came out to his parents who live in suburban Colorado. His mom asked him the typical questions--"Are you sure? Have you tried dating girls? Are you sure you just haven't met the right one?" while his dad set quietly at the table. Then all of his sudden his dad broke into a yelling rage, in the middle of a packed brunch place, accused his son of being scrawny because of AIDS, and stormed out of the place. You really need to stop a second and try to see things from different perspectives.
        noja 14y ago
        You really need to stop a second and try to see things from different perspectives. Not if those perspectives are bigotry.
        jessaustin 14y ago
        I'm pretty sure that's not was what meant by GP. The story wasn't told so we would empathize with the shouting dad but so we'd be reminded of the son's situation.
  - danabramov 14y ago
    Well, at the very least their parents don't know. And it's not like all parents accept this easily.
  - InclinedPlane 14y ago
    Really? Look at a map of US states, wait, here's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.sv... Gay marriage is legal in only a few states. At the federal level it is explicitly excluded from the "full faith and credit" clause of the constitution. And in most states it is expressly illegal. More so, in some states homosexual acts are technically illegal and in theory punishable by jail time. There are a lot of folks who are extremely anti-gay. Who are publicly against not just gay marriage but the "gay lifestyle" and the very existence and/or acceptance of homosexuality. Not to mention friends and family members. According to statistics, as a gay man or woman you'd have roughly the same chance as a coin flip for each one of your friends or family on whether or not they would accept your homosexuality and consider it "morally acceptable". Those aren't the best odds. So yes, it's still kind of a big deal.
    - pfedor 14y ago
      More so, in some states homosexual acts are technically illegal and in theory punishable by jail time. No longer true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
lmm 14y ago
Up to a point, but in a lot of the world it's still necessary.
mhurron 14y ago
> (Straight people don't "come out") Well yes they do, it's just that they can do it by bringing home the boyfriend/girlfriend to meet the parents or whatever you want to consider normal first steps in expressing your sexuality. In a large part of the world though, probably most of the world where you can, if you are gay you basically have to explicit come out to your closest friends and relatives to get over whatever initial shock, embarrassment, anger, violence, or whatever may occur. Far too many don't take it well.
- monochromatic 14y ago
  bringing home the boyfriend/girlfriend to meet the parents or whatever you want to consider normal first steps in expressing your sexuality Saying that this is "coming out" doesn't make it true.
  - jpxxx 14y ago
    But it is true, so think about it until you get it.
    - king_jester 14y ago
      Except it's totally not, being straight in most places in the world is the default and everyone is seen through a lens of being straight. Coming out refers to revealing to people that you are not straight.
      - jpxxx 14y ago
        Fine, I'll yield the semantic argument. "Coming out" in the context of sexuality typically refers to homosexuals publicly expressing their preference for the first time and adjusting their public identity to match. I was attacking the idea that most aren't judged upon first expressing their sexual desires. It's important anywhere and everywhere. Bringing home a partner of a different color? Size? Class? "Looks"? Judgement is issued. In some cultures the kind of partner you're able to pull speaks directly to the honor or worth of the family. It's never not a big deal.
rmc 14y ago
Isn't the idea of "coming out" a bit old fashioned now? What do you mean? People still have to come out... (Straight people don't "come out") Depends. Some straight trans people have to come out as trans.

michaelfeathers 14y ago

In the UK I've run into people who use the term `partner' for whomever they are in a non-married exclusive relationship with, regardless of whether they are gay or straight. I don't know how common that is, or how it got started. I wonder whether it will ever catch on in the US?

ionfish 14y ago
It's pretty common in the UK these days.
- thisone 14y ago
  Some people still give you weird glances and awkward pauses when you use it though. In situations where it doesn't matter (and that's most of them) I've stopped correcting people who assume we're married and I've taken my partner's surname. It actually makes things easier. If they assume you're married, they generally have no problem talking to you about whatever they called to talk to your partner about. When they find out you're not married, sometimes suddenly you can't be trusted.
  - agilebyte 14y ago
    But then it reinforces the belief there there aren't other options. Or rather, it does not show alternatives as more normal than one would assume. I guess that was the point of the article.
    - thisone 14y ago
      I can understand that, but I also don't like having to fight with a company rep because suddenly I'm not good enough to talk to. If they want to assume I'm Mrs so-so, rather than Ms so, partner of Mr so-so, and that gets me better service, then I don't correct them. If they ask directly, for whatever reason, I don't lie.
gadders 14y ago
It's common, but daft. It makes every relationship sound like a firm of solicitors. I don't see what's wrong with wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend.

jrochkind1 14y ago

Okay, how do you do what he's saying _without_ being the guy who bitches about everything and is all up in everyone's business thinking he knows better than everyone how to do their jobs?

mtrimpe 14y ago
It seems that you're also expecting other people to change. You can also just voice your opinion respectfully while still leaving room for everybody else's interpretation. It's the difference between "I don't agree." and "You're doing it wrong!"
Confusion 14y ago
I wondered about that as well. His example of standing up for the truth is easy, because it is simply undeniably true that he is gay and his partner is a man. He can correct wrong assumptions from the comfortable position of what is actually the case in 'reality'. Unfortunately, in most cases the truth you want to defend is in the gray of philosophy, ethics, politics, aesthetics, where you yourself may even agree something isn't a universal truth. Then you're not defending the truth: you are preaching.
SatvikBeri 14y ago
You don't. That's why successful executives often seem like jerks[0]. It's very important to question everything and ask "Why don't we do X instead of Y?" 90% of the time there really will be a good reason for Y, but that other 10% of the time pointing it out will stop a really stupid mistake. Plus, the 90% of the time that you're wrong, you learn something. If you're really lucky, you're in a company where feedback doesn't seem personal, and everyone can feel free to question everything. If not, then you just have to play the part of the jerk to ensure some level of quality. [0]: http://bhorowitz.com/2012/10/17/making-yourself-a-ceo/ http://bhorowitz.com/2012/10/17/making-yourself-a-ceo/
toddmorey 14y ago
In any situation, you don't want to be the lone wolf of honesty. Your company or team needs a culture of honesty. It's simpler than you realize. Have a conversation, make an event out of it. Say, "Look, for this to work, we have to be outspoken and honest. Our success depends on it. It will be uncomfortable at times. It will be frustrating at others. But there's no reason to invest this much, to work this hard, just to stop short of honesty. If you can take a startup, you can take honest feedback. And we should all expect a ton of it." The TechStars program does this really well. They promise you brutal honesty. They tell you to brace for it. You are guaranteed to be told when your idea sucks. You can see this in practice each week as the teams present their pitches. Because honesty is the expectation, the quietest guy in the room will raise his hand and say, "For the first ten minutes, I had no freaking clue what you were talking about." Ouch! But the permission was there. The guy wasn't a jerk, he was embracing the culture. And you know what? It needed to be said. In the early days, Rackspace had a saying: "Bad news first, full disclosure, no surprises." More than a slogan, it was permission to be honest. People would say, "It sucks to bring this up, but as we say, bad news first and full disclosure..." Again, amazingly effective. People want to be honest. And in the end, they want you to be honest, too. There just needs to be permission.

Jabbles 14y ago

Just because you shouldn't have to lie about it, doesn't make it good advice to never lie about it. There are, sadly, many places in the US (and many in the rest of the world) where expressing your true self will cause you (physical/emotional) harm. If you live in such a place, be careful.

borplk 14y ago
such place? planet Earth.
AnthonyJoseph 14y ago
Be careful. Sound advice in any situation. But, most things I have found that are the right thing to do cause physical/emotional harm, at least in the short term.
brudgers 14y ago
I'm not a Baptist. Or any stripe of Christian. Or Jew. Or some other checkbox on the list of tolerable beliefs. I live in Alabama. There's a price. Impeded relationships. Reduced opportunity. Yet, the emotional harm of lying about who am is significantly greater than what one person can inflict upon another. Because like truth, that harm is permanent. People inclined to fuck up someone because they are different, don't deserve a free pass. It is their fucking up which is uncivil, not my choice to abstain from praising Jesus before eating chicken fingers at a business lunch.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >Yet, the emotional harm of lying about who am is significantly greater than what one person can inflict upon another. Because like truth, that harm is permanent. What about if there's no harm? What if you ENJOY lying about who you are? Or, in another twist, what if lying about who you are opens a new world to you, and makes you a different person, perhaps even who you lied about being in the first place? (In the sense that you invent a new identity for yourself, like a Nothern Jewish family boy like Robert Zimmerman emerged into scene as the "wretched hobo poet" Bob Dylan).

kvnn 14y ago

"Your ability to stand up for your truth is a muscle, and the more you exercise it the stronger it gets." His attitude is commendable and helpful in a lot of different situations: - people with stand-out religious beliefs - people with strict diets - people who don't drink It makes me very appreciative that I don't have anxieties over anything that would require me to correct people or divulge personal information. Being gay in his situation, and in general having anxieties attached to information you must always carry, is a pain in the ass. This might be a good reason to act "flaming" (when its an act): get the information out there immediately. I do that in certain situations too.

exit 14y ago

> First, know what you're coming out about. Identify your truths. Write a personal values manifesto. You can't know if your values are being violated if you're ambiguous about what they are. most people would come out about the fact that they don't give a shit about the value of the product their employer produces. many would have to admit they delight in sabotaging the system they hate.

civilian 14y ago
"I enjoy rebelling against authority, and I will make fun of you for not knowing how to type formulas in excel." I'm looking forward to my next interview.

jpwagner 14y ago

I hope I'm not insensitive, but if I'm having a bad day and my cab driver (or just about any total stranger) asks "how is your day" I am not compelled to tell him about the intricacies of being me. It's not about fighting for "the truth", it's simply practical. This is generally how to behave for all matters of sex, politics, religion, and anything else personal. Small talk is small talk.

danabramov 14y ago
If I were gay, and if I came out once, I wouldn't feel comfortable inventing a wife for the sake of a conversation with a cab driver, every single time.
- jpwagner 14y ago
  If I'm having a bad day and a stranger asks "how's your day," I don't invent a good day.
  - danabramov 14y ago
    Yeah but your day is not something that differs you from the most people, something that many people don't accept, something that you probably have been humiliated for. You're not a “faggot” in high school because you had a bad day. It's something you chose to accept and tell your friends and parents and see some people sneer at you. I think that pretending to have a wife for the sake of smalltalk feels like going into the closet again, like admitting you must be guilty of something.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      Why would you need to invent a wife? Usually when you are making small talk with someone who you will most likely only be in the company of for 5 minutes they are more interested in avoiding awkward silence than actually finding out details about your life. If you don't bring up a wife they will just as easily assume that you are single or divorced as much as gay. Besides , people who work in a public facing role like a cab driver or florist will most likely meet gay people all the time and won't find it the slightest bit novel.

nerdfiles 14y ago

I'm not so sure this advice is generally applicable. At the same time, I understand the author probably doesn't mean for it to be, but maybe that is a problem with the inherent vagueness of language. I don't care to do philosophy of language here. When I behave as I truly am, stuff like this applies: [quote] b) Poor Understanding of Social Situations: Their good verbal skills enable adults with WS to initiate superficial social contacts. However, they tend to lack understanding of the underlying, 'unwritten' rules governing all types of social intercourse. They are often too open, direct or personal in their interactions with others, and do not recognize the social constraints that would be apparent to other people in the same situation. In other cases their social naivetŽ and lack of inhibition can lead them to tell tales or to say things that might hurt or embarrass other people. Such behaviour is rarely intentional or malicious, but occurs because the individual may not understand the social implications of his or her utterances. Similarly, adults with WS will not hesitate to try and gain other peoples' attention with comments and questions, or to reprimand others. Consequently they may give the impression of being rude, bossy or attention seeking, which again may antagonize others if they are not fore-warned. -- ADULTS WITH WILLIAMS SYNDROME: GUIDELINES FOR EMPLOYERS & SUPERVISORS By Orlee Udwin, Mark Davies, Chris Stinton & Patricia Howlin [/quote] Generally I get asked if I'm stoned or something like this, when I'm only trying to be myself. And if I tell people about my Williams (like my heart conditions and other obvious elfish features, including psychological), it doesn't matter how much truth or scientific backing or reading I bring to the table. Given the linguistic problematic of Williams, everyone just gets frustrated since there is the unfortunate problem that if you self-diagnose, and talk about it, you have to present symptoms/evidence/whatever-makes-you-think-you're-X in a sequential fashion. I'm learning that this hypermetropolitan-supraurban lifestyle is too fast-paced for a conversational exchange where Demonstration is feasible in conversation. It's like presenting evidence has been restricted to purely scientific settings. It's unfortunate.

gadders 14y ago
I had no idea that was even a thing. I have learnt something new today.
- nerdfiles 14y ago

InclinedPlane 14y ago

It's so easy to compromise, or cover up. I see it all the time in software dev. For every dev who cares enough to pursue an issue diligently to its root cause there are a dozen other devs who are perfectly willing to patch up symptoms of deeper problems or jump to faulty conclusions without bothering to seriously understand what's going on. Everyone wants the quick fix. They want the pain (the bugs, tickets, pages, scrutiny, etc.) to stop. And it's easy to say that something is "almost done" or "mostly done" when in reality there are huge roadblocks in the way. It's hard to tell people you're struggling with a problem, or that you don't know how to do something, or that you don't know the meaning of a word your coworker just used, or you don't understand exactly what they're saying. It's easier to avoid embarrassment in the short-term even if it makes everything harder in the long-term.

jrogers65 14y ago
> It's so easy to compromise, or cover up. I see it all the time in software dev. For every dev who cares enough to pursue an issue diligently to its root cause there are a dozen other devs who are perfectly willing to patch up symptoms of deeper problems or jump to faulty conclusions without bothering to seriously understand what's going on. Everyone wants the quick fix. They want the pain (the bugs, tickets, pages, scrutiny, etc.) to stop. There's a word for these types of people - 'liabilities'.
- epochwolf 14y ago
  There's another word for these people: management.

fallous 14y ago

Seems to me this suffers from the lack of defining "lie", be it of omission, commission, or in the case of simply remaining silent whether one has committed any act at all. If I say "the product is GREAT!" when I believe it to be otherwise, then I'm very obviously lying by commission and that's obviously not a good thing. I do however often cause social consternation when I don't engage in the usual "white lie" that is generally accepted as "correct" for many people. "Do these pants make me look fat?" asked by wife elicits a truthful answer, which she's used to but many who witness the exchange are not. A lie of omission would be something on the order of "is the product ready for market?" with a response of "we've done focus groups and the response was positive" leaving out some useful information like "positive by +.1%", which would be a valuable piece of information to have for the questioner but one in which the respondent does not want to provide since it would probably negate the response. Remaining silent seems to me often to be none of the above. CEO declares a new initiative, I may at first blush disagree but lacking any real information or thought-out objection, and also understanding that he may have more information than I and certainly a different set of responsibilities, I remain silent rather than blurt out an objection with no real argument with which to back it up. My silence in this instance is neither an endorsement nor an objection.

unquietcode 14y ago

I have been reading HN for half a year without ever bothering to login, but this post was so inspiring for me that I had to chime in and say 'thanks'. Never compromise. This is just what I needed. As well, I really like the muscle metaphor. :)

ForrestN 14y ago

I'm gay and this analogy is strained and opportunistic. The charged moment when you're buying flowers for a same-sex partner is charged psychologically, not because of external fears. I live in a very liberal city, and there's almost zero chance I'm going to get bullied by the lady at the flower shop. It's charged because of how I grew up, because of the other people who made me feel like an outsider or a freak, because of what it means more broadly that the world, even this city, is set up for other people. None of that comes into complaining about the speakers being on the wrong side of a TV. True, you can use slippery language to say that these are both "standing up for truth" or something, but in reality the motives behind each gesture are totally different. Standing up for quality as a person in a supply chain might be admirable, but it is not a "coming out" and it is not emotionally charged in the same way that revealing your homosexuality, over and over again, still is. He talks to the cab driver because not doing so would mean rejecting himself. You mention the speakers because you want your company to do well and you're frustrated that the person who's job it is missed something blatant.

Falling3 14y ago
I'm straight... and I agree the analogy is strained. I do want to disagree a bit with your last sentence. In my experience, people don't care too much about excelling at their jobs for the sake of their company. Of course there are some exceptions, especially at the upper rungs, but for the most part people do what they need to in order to get by. If the product is good enough and you're not going to take the heat for it, you don't say anything. I've also noticed that the ones that are willing to speak up and ensure that a product/service/experience is top notch are the ones who have an internal drive to do so. My high school chemistry teacher was very fond of the phrase, "Take pride in your work". It's probably one of the most helpful bits of advice I've ever received.
chris123 14y ago
Whether his analogy could have been better or not is besides the point, IMHO. Not sure I get what you mean by analogy being "opportunistic." He used it in his introduction. It worked for me. In fact, that's an example a good use case. Anyways, I guess it's just a difference of opinion, which is fine and interesting. Cheers :)

gizzlon 14y ago

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but is he telling us that we should try to be offended? I'm referring to the second to last paragraph: You can't know if your values are being violated if you're ambiguous about what they are. Second, learn to develop a sixth sense for when your line is being crossed. It may be a gut feeling. A nervous laugh. A habit of rationalizing. Maybe I'm reading too much into it because some people (especially in the media) seems to set out to be offended, and they're really annoying. Of course there are many valid reasons to be offended and we (as individuals and societies) should treat everyone with respect and try to offend no-one. But it is possible to be too easily offended, and I'm afraid one might end up in that category by following his advice.

typicalrunt 14y ago

People have the misconception that a gay person comes out once. It's not true. If you're gay and you're authentic, you're coming out constantly. You're on a business trip, for example. A cab driver asks if you have kids, and you say that you do. Then he asks about your wife. Even though you may be exhausted, you find yourself summoning the energy to have a transformative conversation with a total stranger on whom you are depending to get to the airport and whose reaction you have no way of predicting. The author's own situation is clouding his judgement. It is entirely easy to predict that asking if you have kids is going to lead to asking about a wife. This is the way family life has gone on for centuries. It's only recently (in generational terms) that gay couples could adopt children or even be openly gay and married... yet the author thinks that there's no way to predict how someone is going to steer a conversation. I wouldn't take offense if someone steered a conversation in the wrong way because it's more about their reaction to the surprise news ("oh, i have a husband not a wife") than to how the conversation found itself. Maybe I perhaps steered the conversation the wrong way instead of the cab driver. As an aside: I had to rewrite this many times because I didn't want to come off as being homophobic, discriminatory, or what have you. I really don't like walking on egg shells, but some topics really cause other people to pounce.

latinohere 14y ago
I'm getting tired of my current HN account so let me trash it. Fuck Gays. I'm Jose Gutierres from the Bronx in case you want to beat me up. There, no more walking on egg-shells. In all seriousness, being too PC is also harmful. I'm not homophobic but really dislike that you cannot have a conversation without somebody getting but hurt. And to finish it off. Fuck muslims, hindus, christians, mexicans, jews, scientologists, hispanics, etc. If you feel I left you out then fuck you too.
- Dylan16807 14y ago
  Your account is a week old with 9 posts!
  - laMaquinaVerde 14y ago

crikli 14y ago

The inference of this paragraph bugs me: "Last week, the pest control guy came to the door. "Are you Mr. Smith?" he says. "No, I'm Mr. Pallotta, Mr. Smith's partner," I reply. "Partner?" he asks. I'm being questioned in my own home. "Yes, partner," I answer. "We're a gay couple." "Oh," he says, trying to process this and maintain his composure." The writer assumes that because the pest control guy doesn't immediately grasp the context of the word "partner" and questions it that he's being interrogated. Then he assumes that the pest control guys is somehow disturbed by the open admission of sexuality and is trying to maintain composure. There's a good chance these perceived slights are in Mr. Pallotta's head; he's misinterpreting the pest control guy's confusion as some type of muted bigotry. There's a lot of ambiguity when the word "partner" is used. I run a business with a partner, so when someone says they're someone's partner, my brain assumes it's meant in a business context because that's the world I spend 95% of my time in. When I'm informed otherwise, I'm sure there's a noticeable hesitation as my brain processes the change of context from business to relational and re-establishes the rules of social interaction from "this is so-and-so's business partner" to "this is so-and-so's significant other." It's definitely not because I'm "disturbed by the open admission of sexuality and am trying to maintain composure."

nollidge 14y ago
Yeah, I agree! I bet the pest control didn't actually say those exact words, either! You know, I wonder if there actually was a pest control guy at all--I bet it was really a plumber! Man, I just can't trust this author at all anymore. Thanks for pointing this out. Thanks also for explaining the ambiguity of the English language to all of us, as well as some of the really interesting machinations people sometimes go through for conversational hesitation. It's information very few people realize and really contributed a lot to the discourse here on HN.
- RobotCaleb 14y ago
  Why do I feel like your comment is dripping in sarcasm?
  - 14y ago

jmole 14y ago

Wish I'd seen this a bit earlier. I read a great article today from Leo Babauta from Zen Habits on essentially the same topic. Set a value system, and stick to it. That's exactly what this author is encouraging. I think it's unfortunate that the context the author chose to illustrate the point is distracting to many, but it doesn't change the validity of his message. Check out the article from Leo here at Zen Habits: http://zenhabits.net/12rules/ http://zenhabits.net/12rules/

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

straws 14y ago

Well, this thread is a new low.

silentmars 14y ago

Big fan of this article. The world asks us to sell out our integrity for such a pittance on almost a daily basis. "Convenience," "convention," "getting along." These are the meager rewards for our silent assent. It's great motivation to read someone standing up and saying "stop it. Your integrity is worth more." Need the reminder sometimes.

drivebyacct2 14y ago

So many people missing the point of the gay analogy in this thread and once again, at the mere hint of the concept of privilege, people race to get defensive and shut their ears before even understanding the issue at play; further showing that people continue to have knee-jerk reactions to the phrase "privilege" just as some think that "feminism" = "hates men" instead of "wants gender equality". To explain further, there's two issues: 1. That my sexuality is a topic that I constantly have to correct people on. It hurts because of internalized homophobia from two decades of growing up in the Midwest. It hurts because it's a constant reminder that I'm a minority and that people make incorrect assumptions about me. It hurts because it's annoying. I had a friend that would introduce me as "DriveBy, my gay friend". That's the sort of feeling I get when I have to stop and say "No, I'm gay". Hell, I even have some awkward feeling when it's someone I suspect is homophobic because I don't want to make them uneasy. 2. When I correct people on my sexuality, I've challenged their assumptions. I've changed their perspective and reminded them that not everyone is straight, even the people that "oh my god, I never would have guessed". This isn't about "shoving sexuality in peoples' faces". It's not about evangelizing LGBT issues every day just to force it.