4 ms·

"Building something interesting requires a surplus of time and money. Salaried jobs provide neither." The trap is not the salary job promotion, but the raise o

by kephra 14y ago

"Building something interesting requires a surplus of time and money. Salaried jobs provide neither." The trap is not the salary job promotion, but the raise of middle class lifestyle. You wont leave middle class, as long as you raise your lifestyle with every income increase, and stay in dept. The solution is to keep a frugal lifestyle. e.g. my lifestyle is around Euro1000/month, even including my sailing boat. A typical good payed coders job leaves Euro2000 surplus every month. So working for salary for one year means, that I have two year runway to work for myself.

meaty 14y ago
This. I live like a student still. Class wars is a zero winners game. Expensive toys and things buy me nothing. My entire worth is about 600GBP. I shop at the cheapest places and grow some of my own food. I have no intention of using the extra time I'm gaining doing anything other than having fun. I can afford to take 7 years out now which is good for 10 years work. I too have a boat (a widebeam canal boat) which is being slowly refurbed in my spare time. When it's done, I'm living on it with my family.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  Families are expensive. Tough to convince the wife that we should live like students.
  - meaty 14y ago
    Depends who your wife is. All we need is each other (I've been married for 12 years have 3 children and have lived like this since day one).
  - dwiel 14y ago
    If this lifestyle is important to you, it seems natural that you'd want to find a lifelong partner that has similar feelings. One of the most common reasons for divorce is disagreements about money. My expenses didn't go up when I began my relationship with my wife, and went up about 15% when my daughter was born. From $1400/mo to $1600/mo for the whole family.
raverbashing 14y ago
Exactly this! People get into mortgages, in new car payments, etc, and into a deeper debt trap every time "The solution is to keep a frugal lifestyle. e.g. my lifestyle is around Euro1000/month, even including my sailing boat. A typical good payed coders job leaves Euro2000 surplus every month. So working for salary for one year means, that I have two year runway to work for myself." My situation is similar (including € but no sailing boat), I try not to live beyond my means but not only that, to save some money, and not "try to fill my salary with expenses"
- alexkus 14y ago
  > People get into mortgages, in new car payments, etc, and into a deeper debt trap every time Only if they choose to. I haven't got caught up in upsizing (lifestyle, houses or even having a car). My aim is to pay off my mortgage as soon as possible, and that's made easier in a few years when our childcare costs will drop dramatically (nursery is frighteningly expensive!). Our lifestyle isn't completely frugal, but we keep most of our holidays in the UK visiting friends/family, rather than splurging on worldwide travel. Most of the money from bonuses, share options (those were the days) and pay rises go towards paying off chunks of the mortgage rather than upgrading lifestyle. Good public transport (London, UK) means that owning a car isn't a necessity; buses/trains/tube/taxis will do most of it and there's Zipcar or other rental cars to fill in the gaps.
primitur 14y ago
Where in Europe is EU3000/mo. the norm? I've got 25 years of experience as a developer, and I'm finding it hard to get 2/3rds of that ..
- GuiA 14y ago
  Where do you live in Europe? In western Europe (France, UK, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, etc.), 30-35k+ is a common starting salary for an engineer with a MSc.
  - primitur 14y ago
    I'm in Austria, a C/C++ developer (Java, Android variant too, but I'd rather not work in it) with systems programming experience, and now 4 years of mobile work. The salaries around these parts are close to the GP scale, but not quite there ..
- troels 14y ago
  As a developer? Most of northern Europe would have salaries way past that, assuming your skills are in demand.
- michaelt 14y ago
  If you'd be willing to work near London in the UK and use Java, drop me an e-mail - address is in my profile.
  - primitur 14y ago
    Nice offer, I'll pass it on to some of the British Java guys I know. ;)
- radicalbyte 14y ago
  Before or after tax? In The Netherlands a good developer can earn between 3000 and 6000 per month before tax. Tax is high, mainly thanks to the massive subsidies given to house owners - mortgage interest payments are subtracted from pre-tax wage before the tax is calculated. As you can guess, it's normal here for people to max their loans and go for interest-only repayments..

by kephra 14y ago

meaty 14y ago

This. I live like a student still. Class wars is a zero winners game. Expensive toys and things buy me nothing. My entire worth is about 600GBP. I shop at the cheapest places and grow some of my own food. I have no intention of using the extra time I'm gaining doing anything other than having fun. I can afford to take 7 years out now which is good for 10 years work. I too have a boat (a widebeam canal boat) which is being slowly refurbed in my spare time. When it's done, I'm living on it with my family.

seanmcdirmid 14y ago
Families are expensive. Tough to convince the wife that we should live like students.
- meaty 14y ago
  Depends who your wife is. All we need is each other (I've been married for 12 years have 3 children and have lived like this since day one).
- dwiel 14y ago
  If this lifestyle is important to you, it seems natural that you'd want to find a lifelong partner that has similar feelings. One of the most common reasons for divorce is disagreements about money. My expenses didn't go up when I began my relationship with my wife, and went up about 15% when my daughter was born. From $1400/mo to $1600/mo for the whole family.

raverbashing 14y ago

Exactly this! People get into mortgages, in new car payments, etc, and into a deeper debt trap every time "The solution is to keep a frugal lifestyle. e.g. my lifestyle is around Euro1000/month, even including my sailing boat. A typical good payed coders job leaves Euro2000 surplus every month. So working for salary for one year means, that I have two year runway to work for myself." My situation is similar (including € but no sailing boat), I try not to live beyond my means but not only that, to save some money, and not "try to fill my salary with expenses"

alexkus 14y ago
> People get into mortgages, in new car payments, etc, and into a deeper debt trap every time Only if they choose to. I haven't got caught up in upsizing (lifestyle, houses or even having a car). My aim is to pay off my mortgage as soon as possible, and that's made easier in a few years when our childcare costs will drop dramatically (nursery is frighteningly expensive!). Our lifestyle isn't completely frugal, but we keep most of our holidays in the UK visiting friends/family, rather than splurging on worldwide travel. Most of the money from bonuses, share options (those were the days) and pay rises go towards paying off chunks of the mortgage rather than upgrading lifestyle. Good public transport (London, UK) means that owning a car isn't a necessity; buses/trains/tube/taxis will do most of it and there's Zipcar or other rental cars to fill in the gaps.

primitur 14y ago

Where in Europe is EU3000/mo. the norm? I've got 25 years of experience as a developer, and I'm finding it hard to get 2/3rds of that ..

GuiA 14y ago
Where do you live in Europe? In western Europe (France, UK, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, etc.), 30-35k+ is a common starting salary for an engineer with a MSc.
- primitur 14y ago
  I'm in Austria, a C/C++ developer (Java, Android variant too, but I'd rather not work in it) with systems programming experience, and now 4 years of mobile work. The salaries around these parts are close to the GP scale, but not quite there ..
troels 14y ago
As a developer? Most of northern Europe would have salaries way past that, assuming your skills are in demand.
michaelt 14y ago
If you'd be willing to work near London in the UK and use Java, drop me an e-mail - address is in my profile.
- primitur 14y ago
  Nice offer, I'll pass it on to some of the British Java guys I know. ;)
radicalbyte 14y ago
Before or after tax? In The Netherlands a good developer can earn between 3000 and 6000 per month before tax. Tax is high, mainly thanks to the massive subsidies given to house owners - mortgage interest payments are subtracted from pre-tax wage before the tax is calculated. As you can guess, it's normal here for people to max their loans and go for interest-only repayments..