4 ms·

How much of this is being driven by issues with Windows 8 versus people simply being content with what they already have? The core 2 duo era killed the buy-a-ne

by jkat 14y ago

How much of this is being driven by issues with Windows 8 versus people simply being content with what they already have? The core 2 duo era killed the buy-a-new-computer-every-2-years thing. I think that, not tablets, is the new reality MS and friends have to realize.

Zirro 14y ago
That people are no longer purchasing new computers every two years sounds very likely, but I think Microsoft (though not their partners) has realised this already. That's why they've been pushing the new "design language" so hard, to the point of including it on non-tablets where it (arguably) doesn't belong. At least among the people around me, the money which would previously be spent on a new computer is used to buy a tablet (mainly iPad) instead. While I'm not sure if the way Microsoft is approaching the tablet-market is right, I don't think they're wrong if they're betting on tablets overtaking desktop/laptop computers in a not so distant future.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  I don't think they're wrong if they're betting on tablets overtaking desktop/laptop computers in a not so distant future. Sigh. Yes, when that future includes cerebral neuroimplants, tablets will replace desktop PCs. Until then, that's as ridiculous a notion as believing that tractors will replace steam shovels, or that motorcycles will replace cars. Touchscreens, and by extension tablets, are not useful for desktop computing. It ranges from amusing to mildly annoying when people in online comment threads believe otherwise, but it's a cause for full-blown market panic when Microsoft executives believe otherwise.
  - Zirro 14y ago
    "Touchscreens, and by extension tablets, are not useful for desktop computing. It ranges from amusing to mildly annoying when people in online comment threads believe otherwise..." I can't tell for sure if it's what you are implying, but I don't believe tablets comes close to replacing desktop computers in terms of functionality, nor do I think they should be used for "desktop computing". However, I believe they have the potential to cover the needs of most people. Saying that tablet-sales will overtake other kinds of devices, and saying that tablets are fully capable of replacing such devices are very different things.
    - CamperBob2 14y ago
      True, I think I see where you're coming from, in that your use of "overtaking" wasn't synonymous with "replacing." I'm mostly making fun of the Windows 8 school of thought that argues that tablet and desktop usage patterns are similar enough to warrant a one-size-fits-all GUI. I think tablets are a threat to a large portion of the laptop PC market, but laptops have already replaced desktops in most applications that can benefit from portability. If someone is using a desktop, chances are they need a desktop, running an OS that's well-suited to it.
      - Zirro 14y ago
        I can see that my usage of "overtaking" was quite ambiguous, sorry about that. I also realise that I may have come off as positive to the path Microsoft is heading with Windows 8. This is not the case, as I do not think the "Metro"-style UI belongs on a desktop computer or that desktop computers should be used the same way you use a tablet. With that said, you make a good point about laptops and I should probably not consider them to be equally threatened in this situation, the way I did in my first post.
    - ams6110 14y ago
      Yes. Large numbers of home users use their PC for email, Facebook, browsing/shopping, and maybe skype/Facetime. Tablets are perfectly good for that and easy to use while sitting on the couch. Those users are likely never again buying a standard desktop or laptop.
      - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
        Kids will grow up on iPads and might...perhaps...graduate to macbooks when they go off to college. Then they'll use a PC at work and come home at night to their tablets/devices... Alas, there will be no one to program these PCs/devices in the future because kids won't grow up with code capable environments (well, maybe they'll be able to code on the web ala Kahn's academy).
  - rayiner 14y ago
    No, it's more like Chinese manufacturing replacing American manufacturing. Yes, we still build a lot of sophisticated stuff here, but we build simple things like garments in China and those jobs aren't coming back. We don't even really produce less than we used to, but it's not a growth industry even though it grew hugely in the last 30 years because all that growth was captured by China. A tablet (maybe with a keyboard dock) can replace PC's for a huge amount of the type of work people used to do on home PC's. E-mail, surfing the net, movies, music, chat, photos, typing up school papers etc, are all that is needed by a large portion of computer users. People are still going to have their work PC's, but the size of that industry is going to shrink relative to the overall market for personal computing devices.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
visualcsharp 14y ago
For me, it's both. Windows 7 hasn't gotten in my way yet. There is no value-add large enough for me to go out and 1) learn a new OS UX paradigm, and 2) potentially be forced to purchase touchscreen monitors to experience 8 optimally. Windows 7 runs everything I could ever want it to run, and this is as an avid gamer and lifetime .NET developer.
CptCodeMonkey 14y ago
Recently I replaced my old video card on my PC, the old one had something like 160 core while new one has 960. I plugged it in and nothing really noticeable has improved. Same with when I swapped my HDD's out for SSD's. In contrast when I was a kid, there was a night & day difference going from an old Apple ][e to a 286 chipset. But I also believe that Apple's gouged out a large chunk of customers via ipads and osx based computers. There's also the question of what is wrong with Windows 7 for anyone to leave it? I can't find supporting numbers right now, but how many years did it take for XP's user base to abandon it? Additionally Valve is starting to prop up linux's weakest sales point and make the consumer friendly distro's gamer friendly. I guess my overall point is that a lot of little bites and not one main culprit is responsible for eroding Microsoft's market share.
- randallsquared 14y ago
  "Same with when I swapped my HDD's out for SSD's." That's... pretty astonishing.
  - robryan 14y ago
    Yeah, honestly the difference between HDD and SSD was bigger for non games uses than my computer upgrades in the 90's.
    - CptCodeMonkey 14y ago
      A decade earlier I was into DIY car performance. I had a Nissan 180sx that was at ~220WHP and slowly tuned/modified it until it was at 380-400WHP. The car could easily kill it's driver if they weren't careful because it was really damn fast. At that point, there were no more easy modifications and gains were in the variable/dubious 10-15WHP that would only be noticeable if I ran the car on a timed trial or a dyno. How this correlates to my HDD to SSD experience is that my workstation is already fairly optimized ( not overclocked mind you ), so biggest improvement was possibly in random seek and since I don't run MySQL or any other server system on the computer that does thousands of file op's/second the improvement was relatively marginal.
orangecat 14y ago
Agreed. Still, Microsoft still deserves some blame for failing to offer reasons to upgrade. For example, they could have been improving resolution independence in Windows and encouraging high-DPI displays instead of 1366x768 dreck. Or they could have taken the correct observation that overlapping windows are often confusing, and rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater via Metro, come up with some sort of automatic tiling window manager that lets you effectively take advantage of large screens. Instead they've deliberately sacrificed desktop usability in favor of tablets, and are surprised that people aren't flocking to it.
- supergauntlet 14y ago
  Windows Vista had tiling somewhat hidden away (you had to use ctrl and select 2 windows in the taskbar, right click and select 'tile horizontally/vertically'), and in 7 it's hidden even further (you have to open up task manager, hold ctrl, right click, and tile). It was there, just not particularly well implemented. I've seen some really good Linux tiling WMs, as well as extensions for GNOME that make tiling simple, I can't understand why Microsoft is incapable of doing the same.

by jkat 14y ago

Zirro 14y ago

That people are no longer purchasing new computers every two years sounds very likely, but I think Microsoft (though not their partners) has realised this already. That's why they've been pushing the new "design language" so hard, to the point of including it on non-tablets where it (arguably) doesn't belong. At least among the people around me, the money which would previously be spent on a new computer is used to buy a tablet (mainly iPad) instead. While I'm not sure if the way Microsoft is approaching the tablet-market is right, I don't think they're wrong if they're betting on tablets overtaking desktop/laptop computers in a not so distant future.

CamperBob2 14y ago
I don't think they're wrong if they're betting on tablets overtaking desktop/laptop computers in a not so distant future. Sigh. Yes, when that future includes cerebral neuroimplants, tablets will replace desktop PCs. Until then, that's as ridiculous a notion as believing that tractors will replace steam shovels, or that motorcycles will replace cars. Touchscreens, and by extension tablets, are not useful for desktop computing. It ranges from amusing to mildly annoying when people in online comment threads believe otherwise, but it's a cause for full-blown market panic when Microsoft executives believe otherwise.
- Zirro 14y ago
  "Touchscreens, and by extension tablets, are not useful for desktop computing. It ranges from amusing to mildly annoying when people in online comment threads believe otherwise..." I can't tell for sure if it's what you are implying, but I don't believe tablets comes close to replacing desktop computers in terms of functionality, nor do I think they should be used for "desktop computing". However, I believe they have the potential to cover the needs of most people. Saying that tablet-sales will overtake other kinds of devices, and saying that tablets are fully capable of replacing such devices are very different things.
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    True, I think I see where you're coming from, in that your use of "overtaking" wasn't synonymous with "replacing." I'm mostly making fun of the Windows 8 school of thought that argues that tablet and desktop usage patterns are similar enough to warrant a one-size-fits-all GUI. I think tablets are a threat to a large portion of the laptop PC market, but laptops have already replaced desktops in most applications that can benefit from portability. If someone is using a desktop, chances are they need a desktop, running an OS that's well-suited to it.
    - Zirro 14y ago
      I can see that my usage of "overtaking" was quite ambiguous, sorry about that. I also realise that I may have come off as positive to the path Microsoft is heading with Windows 8. This is not the case, as I do not think the "Metro"-style UI belongs on a desktop computer or that desktop computers should be used the same way you use a tablet. With that said, you make a good point about laptops and I should probably not consider them to be equally threatened in this situation, the way I did in my first post.
  - ams6110 14y ago
    Yes. Large numbers of home users use their PC for email, Facebook, browsing/shopping, and maybe skype/Facetime. Tablets are perfectly good for that and easy to use while sitting on the couch. Those users are likely never again buying a standard desktop or laptop.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      Kids will grow up on iPads and might...perhaps...graduate to macbooks when they go off to college. Then they'll use a PC at work and come home at night to their tablets/devices... Alas, there will be no one to program these PCs/devices in the future because kids won't grow up with code capable environments (well, maybe they'll be able to code on the web ala Kahn's academy).
- rayiner 14y ago
  No, it's more like Chinese manufacturing replacing American manufacturing. Yes, we still build a lot of sophisticated stuff here, but we build simple things like garments in China and those jobs aren't coming back. We don't even really produce less than we used to, but it's not a growth industry even though it grew hugely in the last 30 years because all that growth was captured by China. A tablet (maybe with a keyboard dock) can replace PC's for a huge amount of the type of work people used to do on home PC's. E-mail, surfing the net, movies, music, chat, photos, typing up school papers etc, are all that is needed by a large portion of computer users. People are still going to have their work PC's, but the size of that industry is going to shrink relative to the overall market for personal computing devices.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

visualcsharp 14y ago

For me, it's both. Windows 7 hasn't gotten in my way yet. There is no value-add large enough for me to go out and 1) learn a new OS UX paradigm, and 2) potentially be forced to purchase touchscreen monitors to experience 8 optimally. Windows 7 runs everything I could ever want it to run, and this is as an avid gamer and lifetime .NET developer.

CptCodeMonkey 14y ago

Recently I replaced my old video card on my PC, the old one had something like 160 core while new one has 960. I plugged it in and nothing really noticeable has improved. Same with when I swapped my HDD's out for SSD's. In contrast when I was a kid, there was a night & day difference going from an old Apple ][e to a 286 chipset. But I also believe that Apple's gouged out a large chunk of customers via ipads and osx based computers. There's also the question of what is wrong with Windows 7 for anyone to leave it? I can't find supporting numbers right now, but how many years did it take for XP's user base to abandon it? Additionally Valve is starting to prop up linux's weakest sales point and make the consumer friendly distro's gamer friendly. I guess my overall point is that a lot of little bites and not one main culprit is responsible for eroding Microsoft's market share.

randallsquared 14y ago
"Same with when I swapped my HDD's out for SSD's." That's... pretty astonishing.
- robryan 14y ago
  Yeah, honestly the difference between HDD and SSD was bigger for non games uses than my computer upgrades in the 90's.
  - CptCodeMonkey 14y ago
    A decade earlier I was into DIY car performance. I had a Nissan 180sx that was at ~220WHP and slowly tuned/modified it until it was at 380-400WHP. The car could easily kill it's driver if they weren't careful because it was really damn fast. At that point, there were no more easy modifications and gains were in the variable/dubious 10-15WHP that would only be noticeable if I ran the car on a timed trial or a dyno. How this correlates to my HDD to SSD experience is that my workstation is already fairly optimized ( not overclocked mind you ), so biggest improvement was possibly in random seek and since I don't run MySQL or any other server system on the computer that does thousands of file op's/second the improvement was relatively marginal.

orangecat 14y ago

Agreed. Still, Microsoft still deserves some blame for failing to offer reasons to upgrade. For example, they could have been improving resolution independence in Windows and encouraging high-DPI displays instead of 1366x768 dreck. Or they could have taken the correct observation that overlapping windows are often confusing, and rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater via Metro, come up with some sort of automatic tiling window manager that lets you effectively take advantage of large screens. Instead they've deliberately sacrificed desktop usability in favor of tablets, and are surprised that people aren't flocking to it.

supergauntlet 14y ago
Windows Vista had tiling somewhat hidden away (you had to use ctrl and select 2 windows in the taskbar, right click and select 'tile horizontally/vertically'), and in 7 it's hidden even further (you have to open up task manager, hold ctrl, right click, and tile). It was there, just not particularly well implemented. I've seen some really good Linux tiling WMs, as well as extensions for GNOME that make tiling simple, I can't understand why Microsoft is incapable of doing the same.