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Yes but you are not me, I am me. I don't know you are conscious or can "feel". Both you and an LLM present themselves using words and other external indications

Yes but you are not me, I am me. I don't know you are conscious or can "feel". Both you and an LLM present themselves using words and other external indications only. If you argue brain scans, then similar experiments have been done on LLMs too.

lolakutty 5d ago
To my argument to work, to answer "why is a brain special", you only have to consider two things. 1. That you are conscious. 2. That you have a human body with a brain. This implies that your body can harbor consciousness. That is what is special about your body in this context. And that answers your question.
- hardbass 5d ago
  Yes and? Where is your disproof that other physical systems can't hold consciousness? I am sure of my body, I am not sure of you. I can feel, but how do I know you are not faking the outputs of feeling? 1. Scooters can move from a place to a place. 2. That a scooter has a body with an engine. Therefore scooters are special and cars don't exist.
  - lolakutty 5d ago
    >but how do I know you are not faking the outputs of feeling? You won't..but it does not matter. >Where is your disproof that other physical systems can't hold consciousness? I said no such thing. Just that there is no reason to think that LLMs are conscious. If we find some natural or artificial entity with some unknown and un-inspectable thing inside it, that behaves in an intelligent manner, I would not be sure that it is not conscious.
    - hardbass 5d ago
      Why unknown? The human brain is known and inspectable, then you should say it is not conscious. You haven't yet shown why you think an LLM can't be conscious. You are just saying "just because" with no reason or parameters given.
      - lolakutty 5d ago
        >The human brain is known and inspectable, then you should say it is not conscious. Human brain is not "inspectable". > LLM can't be conscious. Because there is no reason to think so, and suggestion that would be like suggesting the existence of ghosts and goblins. Extremely unscientific.
        hardbass 5d ago
        So what is the reason to not think it can be conscious? Brains are physical systems, so are LLMs. How is a human brain not inspectable? Tell me what part of it is beyond inspection? You have been making up absurd non sequiturs throughout this chat, ending with this beyond absurd statement now.
        lolakutty 5d ago
        > Brains are physical systems, so are LLMs. So are rocks. Are rocks conscious? Idol worshipers might have a point after all! >Tell me what part of it is beyond inspection? Oh, you can dissect a brain as much as you like. Is that what you mean by "inspection". I was thinking more like "How does it work". In that sense, we don't know a lot.
        hardbass 5d ago
        Rocks don't talk to me and think and act intelligently. Current LLM's do. We don't know a lot about how chaotic systems work either in terms of predicting its outcome even if we know every individual step. The argument you gave for the brain equally applies to the LLMs, or any other complex system. So your premise is wrong.
        lolakutty 5d ago
        > Rocks don't talk to me and think and act intelligently. These are not required for consciousness. > Current LLM's do. Computer chat bots are not a new thing. So were all the past ones conscious too?

lolakutty 5d ago

To my argument to work, to answer "why is a brain special", you only have to consider two things. 1. That you are conscious. 2. That you have a human body with a brain. This implies that your body can harbor consciousness. That is what is special about your body in this context. And that answers your question.

hardbass 5d ago
Yes and? Where is your disproof that other physical systems can't hold consciousness? I am sure of my body, I am not sure of you. I can feel, but how do I know you are not faking the outputs of feeling? 1. Scooters can move from a place to a place. 2. That a scooter has a body with an engine. Therefore scooters are special and cars don't exist.
- lolakutty 5d ago
  >but how do I know you are not faking the outputs of feeling? You won't..but it does not matter. >Where is your disproof that other physical systems can't hold consciousness? I said no such thing. Just that there is no reason to think that LLMs are conscious. If we find some natural or artificial entity with some unknown and un-inspectable thing inside it, that behaves in an intelligent manner, I would not be sure that it is not conscious.
  - hardbass 5d ago
    Why unknown? The human brain is known and inspectable, then you should say it is not conscious. You haven't yet shown why you think an LLM can't be conscious. You are just saying "just because" with no reason or parameters given.
    - lolakutty 5d ago
      >The human brain is known and inspectable, then you should say it is not conscious. Human brain is not "inspectable". > LLM can't be conscious. Because there is no reason to think so, and suggestion that would be like suggesting the existence of ghosts and goblins. Extremely unscientific.
      - hardbass 5d ago
        So what is the reason to not think it can be conscious? Brains are physical systems, so are LLMs. How is a human brain not inspectable? Tell me what part of it is beyond inspection? You have been making up absurd non sequiturs throughout this chat, ending with this beyond absurd statement now.
        lolakutty 5d ago
        > Brains are physical systems, so are LLMs. So are rocks. Are rocks conscious? Idol worshipers might have a point after all! >Tell me what part of it is beyond inspection? Oh, you can dissect a brain as much as you like. Is that what you mean by "inspection". I was thinking more like "How does it work". In that sense, we don't know a lot.
        hardbass 5d ago
        Rocks don't talk to me and think and act intelligently. Current LLM's do. We don't know a lot about how chaotic systems work either in terms of predicting its outcome even if we know every individual step. The argument you gave for the brain equally applies to the LLMs, or any other complex system. So your premise is wrong.
        lolakutty 5d ago
        > Rocks don't talk to me and think and act intelligently. These are not required for consciousness. > Current LLM's do. Computer chat bots are not a new thing. So were all the past ones conscious too?