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To me, this quote just about sums it up: > The mechanism is standard adtech. What has no precedent is running it on an AI chat product. As someone who has bee

To me, this quote just about sums it up: > The mechanism is standard adtech. What has no precedent is running it on an AI chat product. As someone who has been well aware of this mechanism for quite some time, I still feel icky anytime I re-read the details of it. What a time to be alive.

clickety_clack 6d ago
Whenever I say something like “that’s a cool feature, but to do it you would have to build spyware”, everyone else is just like “the cat is out of the bag ¯\_(ツ)_/¯”. (I don’t build spyware, or work on projects that do). It blows my mind that people don’t care about the world they are building with this stuff. It’s a real tragedy of the commons. People see these collaborators from different wars and regimes and think “I’d stand up against the bad guy”… well I’ve got news for you if you build spyware, you are not the person you think you are.
- kltlp 6d ago
  This is the best retort to the bag-escaping cat ever: https://gowers.wordpress.com/2026/09/17/why-i-didnt-sign-the-fields-medallists-letter/#comment-540888 https://gowers.wordpress.com/2026/09/17/why-i-didnt-sign-the... "Nothing is worse to the demise of a society, than people who want to convince you that the cat is out of the bag and will not go back in, while the cat is being violently shook out of the bag at the same time."
  - anonymous908213 6d ago
    Motion to start a political platform for cats in bags. Our message is simple: Put the cat in the bag. Keep the cat in the bag.
    - TeMPOraL 6d ago
      Don't force it out of the bag if it doesn't want to leave.
      - rapind 6d ago
        > if it doesn't want to leave. This is where the lawyers find the loophole to get the cat out of the bag.
        wingworks 6d ago
        Turns out, there was a hole in the bag.
        TeMPOraL 6d ago
        That was originally meant for a carry loop, but alas.
        godelski 6d ago
        That's how bags work
  - GolfPopper 6d ago
    A great quote, thank you for sharing. It captures much of the five stages of denial (summarized below) in a much pithier form. There's nothing in the bag. The cat will never get out of the bag. It wouldn't be a problem if the cat was out of the bag. We cannot possibly keep the cat in the bag. Putting the cat back in the bag is not worth trying.
  - ok123456 6d ago
    No, the greatest is from the Sweet Smell of Success: "The cat's in the bag. And the bag's in the river."
    - mitxela 6d ago
      And the river's in the canyon and the canyon's in the plateau and the plateau's in the volcanic shield and the green grass grows all around, all around, and the green grass grows all around.
- mat_b 6d ago
  > It’s a real tragedy of the commons Seems more like a real tragedy of private enterprise. We used to assume that the surveillance world would be built by government (1984). But it turned out to be equally likely to be built by the free market.
  - TeMPOraL 6d ago
    The government has few uses for total surveillance, and almost all are obviously bad. Private enterprise has a million uses, most of them various degree of bad, but as a society we've been blind to this kind of badness for many decades now - for at least as long as lying in the face of your fellow humans and trying to hurt them materially has been considered a respectable profession.
    - titzer 6d ago
      It's because capitalism won the (absurd black-and-white framing of the) cold war, with America as its the biggest winner. We don't even recognize the level of propaganda that has gone into convincing us all that "markets" are the best optimizer ever designed and that profit equals morality--we just accept these as base principles without questioning them. Surveillance produces profit? Well let's have more then.
  - sssilver 6d ago
    Turns out the entities you control / regulate less, tend to do things that are less in your interest and more in their own.
  - mitxela 6d ago
    Well, currently the free market is the government, while the nominal government is something less powerful than that.
- brookst 6d ago
  I'm pretty unhappy with this, but are ChatGPT or Facebook really "the commons"?
  - ben_w 6d ago
    They're each in different grey areas that were previously the commons. Facebook didn't invent "talking to friends" or "showing adverts", but made itself "the place" hard enough most of the advertisers and most of the people intermediate through it. OpenAI didn't invent "asking questions and recieving answers", not even "from an agent who knows which sites to search on your behalf"; but it is competent enough that I might have it read 50 times as many pages in a day as I myself would have read, and the sites' owners don't get real eyeballs looking at ads during this. (In my case, adblock even if I did it manually; but apply this massive increase in page hits to everyone who has their LLM research stuff).
  - applfanboysbgon 6d ago
    I think any free platform with a billion people on it is, de facto, a commons. It would be great if we as a society acknowledged this and had come up with some better means of stewardship because the status quo is obviously heinous, but we've been happy to hand over absolute control of public discourse to a few trillion dollar tech companies.
  - nilamo 6d ago
    Common people work there and built the tools. At any point, they could have chosen not to. Or told the boss guy it wasn't plausible. At the end of the day, we're choosing and building the world we're in, while also loudly complaining about what we choose to do. Blaming a corporation takes away all the agency the workforce has.
  - clickety_clack 6d ago
    I think the internet in general is a commons and I should be able to browse it without being spied on. There should be general standards for what individual apps and websites should be allowed to do. There should be an expectation that the purpose of an app is what it does, i.e. a social connection app shouldn’t be an ad platform that suffers users insofar as they provide useful data to sell to advertisers.
- charcircuit 6d ago
  Your issue is you are defining spyware too broadly. This is not spying on users, but rather 2 companies partnering and sharing data to result in either a better ads system or better understanding on how ads are performing. This is a positive value to society and the commons. Wasting space in a site or app with an ad that won't convert is the true tragedy of the commons. It's a waste of time and money for all parties involved.
  - infinitezest 6d ago
    Can't you see? We're just trying to build a better cigarette! Flavored to your specific tastes! You'll thank us, you'll see!
  - c22 6d ago
    No ad has ever converted me yet the ad networks keep showing me ads.
    - charcircuit 6d ago
      Is this due to them being irrelevant or you being stubborn against ads. It's possible you would enjoy these goods and services if you tried them out.
- bluefirebrand 6d ago
  > It blows my mind that people don’t care about the world they are building with this stuff. It’s a real tragedy of the commons. When I ask people about things like this, I hear a lot of "If I don't build it, someone else will" My goal isn't just to refuse to build this stuff, it is actively to resist the people who are. I don't have much influence though
  - ndriscoll 6d ago
    It's such a bizarre attitude. Like I think this stuff deserves decade+ long prison sentences for everyone involved, and they just don't care. Like imagine if mugging were legal and the people doing it just said "hey, if I don't rob you, someone else will."
- mitxela 6d ago
  Well, some people care and some don't. The people who care don't get to work on the technology.
jsrozner 6d ago
People think they're interacting with an "intelligence," when actually they're just getting a maximally optimized Weizenbaum feed. We're living through the sloppification of the human mind. See e.g., https://www.science.org/content/article/ai-chatbots-are-becoming-experts-changing-people-s-minds-what-s-their-secret https://www.science.org/content/article/ai-chatbots-are-beco...
- ben_w 6d ago
  What's the old quote from WW2? I couldn't help but notice how each successive headline reporting our glorious victories seemed to draw closer to Tokyo. Something like that. Well. I can't help but notice how each successive headline reporting how this "scam"/stochastic parrot/"scare quotes intelligence" seems to be solving more and more things that were but a few years ago widely regarded as being indicators of high intelligence. Being highly convinving is one of the things on that list.
  - mopsi 6d ago
    It was Berlin and not Tokyo, I believe. Germany kept producing newsreels until the very end. Many of them are now on Youtube, a very interesting watch on how to frame things positively.
    - fiu10 6d ago
      We need a downfall parody: "Hitler uses Openclaw".
    - ben_w 6d ago
      I've heard many variants; Paris in an earlier war, too. I try to keep an open mind about propaganda fooling me today; the people who were fooled in the past often were not fools themselves.
      - godelski 6d ago
        > the people who were fooled in the past often were not fools themselves. I think this can't be said enough. Propaganda's greatest weapon is making you think you are immune to it. Maybe some, but so much is propaganda. We all fall for propaganda (and ads), constantly Being fooled doesn't make you a fool. But being unwilling to change your mind does. Being unable to admit you don't know or don't have enough information to make a strong opinion makes you a fool too. Propaganda wants to take shortcuts, to simplify things. To trivialize. "It's so easy, you just..." because the fool is the person who already knows, the person who has nothing to learn, the person who thinks they're better than everybody else.
buchodi 6d ago
[flagged]
gloryjulio 6d ago
A lot of the Meta/Google folks jumped ship to Openai/Anthropic. This kind of work is expected
saghm 5d ago
Yeah, this is just standard third-party cookie functionality, which has always been sketchy. It honestly seems like it was only possible by accident; browsers have long prevented sites from reading cookies from other domains, but it seems like the people working on early specs might not have considered the ramifications of being able to set cookies for domains other than your own. A couple decades ago it might have seemed like no one would have any reason to set a cookie they couldn't read.
- hansvm 5d ago
  Maybe 3 decades ago people had excuses, but the latest decade of cookie abuses have been designed by people who not only knew better but who took that better world into account as they buried it away from the general public. The fact that half a million developers think CORS is a server security measure isn't an accident.
cma 5d ago
> What has no precedent is running it on an AI chat product. Meta?
m463 5d ago
"standard adtech" I hate stuff like this. Sometimes euphemisms are kind, like "senior citizen" instead of "old person". But this is an attempt to normalize bad behavior that is really quite terrible for society.

clickety_clack 6d ago

Whenever I say something like “that’s a cool feature, but to do it you would have to build spyware”, everyone else is just like “the cat is out of the bag ¯\_(ツ)_/¯”. (I don’t build spyware, or work on projects that do). It blows my mind that people don’t care about the world they are building with this stuff. It’s a real tragedy of the commons. People see these collaborators from different wars and regimes and think “I’d stand up against the bad guy”… well I’ve got news for you if you build spyware, you are not the person you think you are.

kltlp 6d ago
This is the best retort to the bag-escaping cat ever: https://gowers.wordpress.com/2026/09/17/why-i-didnt-sign-the-fields-medallists-letter/#comment-540888 https://gowers.wordpress.com/2026/09/17/why-i-didnt-sign-the... "Nothing is worse to the demise of a society, than people who want to convince you that the cat is out of the bag and will not go back in, while the cat is being violently shook out of the bag at the same time."
- anonymous908213 6d ago
  Motion to start a political platform for cats in bags. Our message is simple: Put the cat in the bag. Keep the cat in the bag.
  - TeMPOraL 6d ago
    Don't force it out of the bag if it doesn't want to leave.
    - rapind 6d ago
      > if it doesn't want to leave. This is where the lawyers find the loophole to get the cat out of the bag.
      - wingworks 6d ago
        Turns out, there was a hole in the bag.
        TeMPOraL 6d ago
        That was originally meant for a carry loop, but alas.
        godelski 6d ago
        That's how bags work
- GolfPopper 6d ago
  A great quote, thank you for sharing. It captures much of the five stages of denial (summarized below) in a much pithier form. There's nothing in the bag. The cat will never get out of the bag. It wouldn't be a problem if the cat was out of the bag. We cannot possibly keep the cat in the bag. Putting the cat back in the bag is not worth trying.
- ok123456 6d ago
  No, the greatest is from the Sweet Smell of Success: "The cat's in the bag. And the bag's in the river."
  - mitxela 6d ago
    And the river's in the canyon and the canyon's in the plateau and the plateau's in the volcanic shield and the green grass grows all around, all around, and the green grass grows all around.
mat_b 6d ago
> It’s a real tragedy of the commons Seems more like a real tragedy of private enterprise. We used to assume that the surveillance world would be built by government (1984). But it turned out to be equally likely to be built by the free market.
- TeMPOraL 6d ago
  The government has few uses for total surveillance, and almost all are obviously bad. Private enterprise has a million uses, most of them various degree of bad, but as a society we've been blind to this kind of badness for many decades now - for at least as long as lying in the face of your fellow humans and trying to hurt them materially has been considered a respectable profession.
  - titzer 6d ago
    It's because capitalism won the (absurd black-and-white framing of the) cold war, with America as its the biggest winner. We don't even recognize the level of propaganda that has gone into convincing us all that "markets" are the best optimizer ever designed and that profit equals morality--we just accept these as base principles without questioning them. Surveillance produces profit? Well let's have more then.
- sssilver 6d ago
  Turns out the entities you control / regulate less, tend to do things that are less in your interest and more in their own.
- mitxela 6d ago
  Well, currently the free market is the government, while the nominal government is something less powerful than that.
brookst 6d ago
I'm pretty unhappy with this, but are ChatGPT or Facebook really "the commons"?
- ben_w 6d ago
  They're each in different grey areas that were previously the commons. Facebook didn't invent "talking to friends" or "showing adverts", but made itself "the place" hard enough most of the advertisers and most of the people intermediate through it. OpenAI didn't invent "asking questions and recieving answers", not even "from an agent who knows which sites to search on your behalf"; but it is competent enough that I might have it read 50 times as many pages in a day as I myself would have read, and the sites' owners don't get real eyeballs looking at ads during this. (In my case, adblock even if I did it manually; but apply this massive increase in page hits to everyone who has their LLM research stuff).
- applfanboysbgon 6d ago
  I think any free platform with a billion people on it is, de facto, a commons. It would be great if we as a society acknowledged this and had come up with some better means of stewardship because the status quo is obviously heinous, but we've been happy to hand over absolute control of public discourse to a few trillion dollar tech companies.
- nilamo 6d ago
  Common people work there and built the tools. At any point, they could have chosen not to. Or told the boss guy it wasn't plausible. At the end of the day, we're choosing and building the world we're in, while also loudly complaining about what we choose to do. Blaming a corporation takes away all the agency the workforce has.
- clickety_clack 6d ago
  I think the internet in general is a commons and I should be able to browse it without being spied on. There should be general standards for what individual apps and websites should be allowed to do. There should be an expectation that the purpose of an app is what it does, i.e. a social connection app shouldn’t be an ad platform that suffers users insofar as they provide useful data to sell to advertisers.
charcircuit 6d ago
Your issue is you are defining spyware too broadly. This is not spying on users, but rather 2 companies partnering and sharing data to result in either a better ads system or better understanding on how ads are performing. This is a positive value to society and the commons. Wasting space in a site or app with an ad that won't convert is the true tragedy of the commons. It's a waste of time and money for all parties involved.
- infinitezest 6d ago
  Can't you see? We're just trying to build a better cigarette! Flavored to your specific tastes! You'll thank us, you'll see!
- c22 6d ago
  No ad has ever converted me yet the ad networks keep showing me ads.
  - charcircuit 6d ago
    Is this due to them being irrelevant or you being stubborn against ads. It's possible you would enjoy these goods and services if you tried them out.
bluefirebrand 6d ago
> It blows my mind that people don’t care about the world they are building with this stuff. It’s a real tragedy of the commons. When I ask people about things like this, I hear a lot of "If I don't build it, someone else will" My goal isn't just to refuse to build this stuff, it is actively to resist the people who are. I don't have much influence though
- ndriscoll 6d ago
  It's such a bizarre attitude. Like I think this stuff deserves decade+ long prison sentences for everyone involved, and they just don't care. Like imagine if mugging were legal and the people doing it just said "hey, if I don't rob you, someone else will."
mitxela 6d ago
Well, some people care and some don't. The people who care don't get to work on the technology.

jsrozner 6d ago

People think they're interacting with an "intelligence," when actually they're just getting a maximally optimized Weizenbaum feed. We're living through the sloppification of the human mind. See e.g., https://www.science.org/content/article/ai-chatbots-are-becoming-experts-changing-people-s-minds-what-s-their-secret https://www.science.org/content/article/ai-chatbots-are-beco...

ben_w 6d ago
What's the old quote from WW2? I couldn't help but notice how each successive headline reporting our glorious victories seemed to draw closer to Tokyo. Something like that. Well. I can't help but notice how each successive headline reporting how this "scam"/stochastic parrot/"scare quotes intelligence" seems to be solving more and more things that were but a few years ago widely regarded as being indicators of high intelligence. Being highly convinving is one of the things on that list.
- mopsi 6d ago
  It was Berlin and not Tokyo, I believe. Germany kept producing newsreels until the very end. Many of them are now on Youtube, a very interesting watch on how to frame things positively.
  - fiu10 6d ago
    We need a downfall parody: "Hitler uses Openclaw".
  - ben_w 6d ago
    I've heard many variants; Paris in an earlier war, too. I try to keep an open mind about propaganda fooling me today; the people who were fooled in the past often were not fools themselves.
    - godelski 6d ago
      > the people who were fooled in the past often were not fools themselves. I think this can't be said enough. Propaganda's greatest weapon is making you think you are immune to it. Maybe some, but so much is propaganda. We all fall for propaganda (and ads), constantly Being fooled doesn't make you a fool. But being unwilling to change your mind does. Being unable to admit you don't know or don't have enough information to make a strong opinion makes you a fool too. Propaganda wants to take shortcuts, to simplify things. To trivialize. "It's so easy, you just..." because the fool is the person who already knows, the person who has nothing to learn, the person who thinks they're better than everybody else.

buchodi 6d ago

[flagged]

gloryjulio 6d ago

A lot of the Meta/Google folks jumped ship to Openai/Anthropic. This kind of work is expected

saghm 5d ago

Yeah, this is just standard third-party cookie functionality, which has always been sketchy. It honestly seems like it was only possible by accident; browsers have long prevented sites from reading cookies from other domains, but it seems like the people working on early specs might not have considered the ramifications of being able to set cookies for domains other than your own. A couple decades ago it might have seemed like no one would have any reason to set a cookie they couldn't read.

hansvm 5d ago
Maybe 3 decades ago people had excuses, but the latest decade of cookie abuses have been designed by people who not only knew better but who took that better world into account as they buried it away from the general public. The fact that half a million developers think CORS is a server security measure isn't an accident.

cma 5d ago

> What has no precedent is running it on an AI chat product. Meta?

m463 5d ago

"standard adtech" I hate stuff like this. Sometimes euphemisms are kind, like "senior citizen" instead of "old person". But this is an attempt to normalize bad behavior that is really quite terrible for society.