6 ms·

Sherline Tools Is Going Out of Business

248 points by tliltocatl 14d ago

technothrasher 14d ago
This is too bad. I've got both their mill and their lathe, and they've been great for making replacement parts for antique clocks.
Ccecil 14d ago
Sad news. First, Openbuilds now this. Not a surprise to me though since I am operating in the CNC industry I have seen the same struggles and changes, albeit, from a slightly different perspective. I work with the Smoothieware/Smoothieboard project. It seems, from my observation, that most people are not working with hardware like they were a few years ago. The "homebrew" machines and shadetree makers are becoming few and far between. The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects. Not only that but people have been convinced that they don't have the ability to make a machine. Instead of spending time learning something new/valuable (i.e. Reprap) it is now popular to just have someone else do it...be it AI or a factory in another country with subsidies that create massive differences in bottom line. The ability to make things at home is disappearing. People cannot/will not learn to make their own machines. Companies that make machines that care about their community and customers are disappearing. Maybe it's by design? I don't know.
- JoshTriplett 14d ago
  > The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects. I've seen what people go through when they operate 3D printers. The impression I have is that they still make 2D inkjet printers look like paragons of reliability.
  - Ccecil 14d ago
    I wouldn't trade that time spent on my printers for anything. I wrote a post about this recently [1] There was way more valuable things learned in the process than just making Benchy. For years I have been trying to tell people this. The value of Reprap was not just "to have a printer". [1] https://www.robosprout.com/thank-you-reprap-for-all-of-it/ https://www.robosprout.com/thank-you-reprap-for-all-of-it/
    - JoshTriplett 14d ago
      Some people want to have an experience with their printer. Some people want it to be an appliance. If you wanted an appliance, and got an experience, you're going to be disappointed. For people who genuinely wanted the experience of exploring 3D printers, like yourself, I'm very happy that those people got that experience. For myself, just as I want to print documents and not have adventures with inkjet printers, I want to make things and not have adventures with 3D printers. Which is why I have no plans to own a 3D printer.
      - WillAdams 13d ago
        My Elegoo Centauri Carbon and Flashforge AD5X have been pretty much plug in, load filament, calibrate/configure for that filament, print. It or a similar printer (CoreXY, enclosed if you're going to print filaments which warrant that) from a brand w/ a good reputation should work as well.
      - lirolero 13d ago
        [dead]
  - alecst 14d ago
    Crazy as it sounds, that’s the opposite of my personal experience.
    - nearlyepic 14d ago
      Yeah in the four years I’ve had my Prusa it’s had basically no problems. They’re a pain in the ass if you buy bottom of the barrel crap with sloppy tolerances for $100 I guess, but the same is true of regular printers.
- in_absentia 14d ago
  I'm not sure if it's that simple. Many space-intensive DIY hobbies are on the retreat simply because more people are moving into cities or very dense suburbs where you have no practical opportunity to, say, build a woodworking shop. Metalworking was even more severely impacted, for obvious reasons. Also, long before mail-order offshore manufacturing, people have been lured away from most of this by the promise of 3D printing. Every other techie I know owns a 3D printer. Most have not made anything interesting with it because they soon learn that the real difficulty is materials science and 3D design. But as a nerd, it's the thing you're supposed to own. In contrast, I know maybe four people in the SF Bay Area who are into woodworking, metalsmithing, CNC, or stuff like that. I don't see mail-order prototyping as a conspiracy... it's more of a culmination of the DIY community chasing the mirage they were sold on in the early 2010s. I still remember the HN claims: home manufacturing revolution! It's the beginning of a brand new economy, why would anyone buy anything anymore when you can just click "print"... with some amusing parallels to how some folks now talk about building your own software with AI. The mail-order stuff isn't evil insofar that it may allow some people to make things they couldn't make before. On the flip side, it's a very inefficient way to learn, so I think it will reduce hardware literacy among those who could afford a garage workshop. FWIW, I think the same goes for AI-assisted hardware design. On one hand, I see people who otherwise wouldn't be DIYing getting into DIY: "I asked Claude and it one-shotted this rectangular enclosure for me, it's amazing!", "Claude made this RP2350 breakout board for me, how cool is that". But I also see established DIYers getting a degree of brain rot.
  - Palomides 14d ago
    we have had a home manufacturing revolution, though, and making every kind of hardware is crazy accessible, look at the explosion of niche products in every single hobby space over the past ten years I miss absolutely nothing about etching my own single layer PCBs at home
    - in_absentia 14d ago
      First, PCBs: neither do I, I'm not sure why you're assuming that's the position I want to take. This has nothing to do with 3D printing or mail-order metal parts. Second, I don't think there's a revolution for the general population. Your archetypal middle-aged dad / curious teenager are DIYing less than 20 years ago, which in turn was less than 40 years ago. The stats here are clear, most of "garage" occupations are on the decline. Less space, higher costs, more emphasis on safety. Some hobbies, such as backyard chemistry, are effectively gone. Shop classes in most schools are gone. Making your own bookshelf or building a radio from a kit is no longer a rite of passage. Third, the "explosion of niche products" - maybe, but I think some of it is just visibility. Kickstarter, HN, Hack-a-Day, and so on. Before that, we had hobby journals for woodworking, electronics, etc, and they were always full of ads for niche gear. You just weren't seeing the totality of it in a doom-scroll loop. Visibility has benefits, but my point is that the qualitative change isn't as profound.
- hingler36 14d ago
  I feel like this has been a talking point for as long as off-the-shelf printers aimed at hobbyists have existed. Calling them AI factories is a bit off the mark imo, there are plenty of hobbyists that learn CAD and want to make their own stuff, but don't want to build their own printer. The kind of people who are interested in reprap are absolutely still around, and I really don't see that community going dissolving because of the rise of capable commercial printers.
  - Ccecil 14d ago
    That wasn't exactly what was said... "it is now popular to just have someone else do it...be it AI or a factory in another country" And sure there are some people interested in reprap but they have been scattered to the wind. #reprap IRC has become an advertising/support channel for commercial printers. If you go to most of the channels/forums where the development used to happen and mention you want to build a printer you will be flooded with responses about how stupid that is and provided with names/links of the printers you should be buying. Making things is a fool's errand. Maybe my observations were different...maybe not...but from what I saw at about 2016 the whole DIY machine thing switched.
    - necovek 14d ago
      I believe part of it is the cost. It used to be too expensive to get something like a decent commercial 3D printer (though at the same time). Now you can get one for less than the cost of RepRap components back in the day, so it is stupid to do it if you just want to print stuff out (it might even be more expensive, and will likely produce worse prints). If, however, you want to learn how to build one, or just have an experience of building your own tool you'll use to create stuff, it is most definitely not stupid to do it. With 3D printing becoming mainstream, you'll have fewer people in those communities who support and live that approach though, and you'll need to look harder to find documentation and like-minded people.
    - hingler36 13d ago
      Thanks for clarifying your point. I didn't know about the reprap IRC channel being dead, that's a real shame
- Aurornis 14d ago
  > The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects. > The ability to make things at home is disappearing I do not know what you are talking about. 3D printing at home is more popular than ever. Even families I know who don’t have a computer at home, only their phones, now have 3D printers and use them. > People cannot/will not learn to make their own machines I think this is an appeal to 3D printing purity that drove me away from many of the communities. In the early days we all swapped tips and shared reviews of parts (like the Smoothieboard I still have) with other people who liked to build machines because that was the only way to do 3D printing at hobby level prices. When asked what we used the 3D printers for, the joke was that they were used to print parts for our 3D printer. It wasn’t really a joke, though. We spent more time keeping the printers working and trying to tune them than we did printing other things we needed. That has flipped. Now it’s easy to get a cheap 3D printer and start getting parts out of it without thinking about the printer much. This is great if you’re a person who wants to use the output of the printer. This is boring if you think the value is the process of building and changing the printer hardware all the time. I’m tired of hearing takes about how this is wrong or bad. Most “makers” want to make other things, not spend their precious free time trying to debug failing prints. There are more opportunities and knowledge available now for people who do want to build their own machines and it’s very cheap. People who want to do that can, but don’t look down upon the people who don’t want to do that.
  - Teever 14d ago
    > There are more opportunities and knowledge available now for people who do want to build their own machines and it’s very cheap. And what happens if China decides that it is no longer in their interest to allow Americans access to cheap aluminum extrusions, hotends, motors, and controllers? Between the American tariffs and Chinese prioritization of 3d printing in a past five year plan American hobbyists and small scale producers are in a potential bind.
    - Aurornis 14d ago
      > And what happens if China decides that it is no longer in their interest to allow Americans access to cheap aluminum extrusions, hotends, motors, and controllers? Then home 3D printing will be the least of our concerns? What kind of question is this?
- fotbr 14d ago
  Do you expect the homeowner that needs to mow their lawn to build their own lawnmower? How about the "tech savvy" homeowner that wants an automated lawnmower? Should they be derided for buying one of the robot mowers instead of building their own? Should the person that needs a hammer and nails to build a raised bed for their gardening hobby be required to make the hammer or the nails, in the name of "learning something new/valuable"? It comes down to the fact that these things are tools. Now that reasonably affordable "turnkey" or "off the shelf" options are available, what you're really seeing is the divide between those wanting building the tool itself as their hobby, and those that just want a tool to use on their other hobbies. There was less of a divide previously because for most people, the "just buy one" option simply didn't exist. Now it does. I spent a lot of time over the years wire-wrapping circuits, then manually laying out and etching/making circuit boards, then using software to do the layouts while still etching/drilling boards myself, then learning and switching the bulk of my projects to surface-mount. It was a necessary part of making electronic bits for stuff I wanted, but I didn't enjoy that part. Now that I can draw something up, send it off and for a few bucks have professionally manufactured multi-layer boards in days/weeks, with many/most components already placed and soldered, why wouldn't I cut out the part I don't enjoy? I played with 3d printers off and on from about 2006 onwards, though I never kept one around for any real length of time. I found that while I really wanted the capabilities, I didn't want "building and keeping a 3d printer running" to be my hobby. 20 years later, there are options that don't require printer maintenance to be it's own hobby, and I'm much more willing to keep one around. I've had a couple Chinese-made mini-mills since 2002 -- Sieg X2s, if I remember the old naming scheme correctly, though they were sold by various importers with their own names/model numbers. I converted one to CNC operation in 2004. While I appreciate the work done by others that I could learn from, I did not enjoy the process or the project. If there had been a reasonably affordable "turnkey" option with the capabilities I wanted, I would have 100% taken it. If I needed another one now, with the options available, there's no way I'd bother to build my own. Even then, I would have gone with sherline's early cnc offerings -- they fit my budget, but were just too small for what I wanted to do. My first CNC router was scratch-built in the early 2000s. My current one came in a crate 4 years ago, and cost about half of what building a new one with the same capabilities from scratch would have. Instead of spending a several months' worth of weekends building it, I spent one weekend unpacking it and setting it up, another fine-tuning it and the software settings, and then was able to start using it for projects I enjoyed. The ability for people to make things at home is expanding, just not in the way you'd like to see. That isn't a bad thing. At the end of the day, time is what is ultimately valuable, and I don't have nearly as much of it as I did when I was younger. At this point, I'd much rather spend what time I do have enjoying my hobbies and creating the things I want to create, not building tools or suffering through tasks I hate simply because someone else thinks that is the important part. It seems I'm not the only one. As for companies that "care" disappearing, well, that's just the current business environment. When the only measure of success that's deemed important is the stock value -- or potential stock value, in the case of startups -- customer service is an expense that can be cut to inflate next months' quarterly report. In exchange, the concept of customer loyalty is dying as well.
- steve-atx-7600 14d ago
  Re: factory in another country: I use and recommend craftcloud (Germany company that facilitates having your uploaded model be printed wherever and however you choose (and see prices of course). I am always able to find companies in the USA to print my designs. I had repeated good results with https://hudsoncreativegroup.com/ https://hudsoncreativegroup.com/ in AR. The only reason I haven’t done it myself is because I don’t have time to do it often enough and each time I get back into it I have to relearn about the material choice tradeoffs. If I had a better grasp of these things and get a less demanding tech job/replaced by AI :), I would research buying one.
- Youden 14d ago
  I think maybe your view is too narrow? It's not that people don't want to make a machine, it's that now they don't have to. When I started hobby CNC a few years ago, the only compact or desktop CNC machines were flimsy Chinese things made entirely of extrusion, expensive machines made for education/prototyping environments and the Carbide3D Nomad (which I ended up buying). I ended up building a machine from scratch because the original Nomad was too flimsy to really cut metals, even Aluminium. But in the last few years companies like Makera came along and sell desktop CNC machines that can cut metal for under $6k USD and there's even a toolchanger. For just a little more, there's a Kickstarter for a 5-axis machine with mist cooling, ATC a wireless probe and it can cut steel and titanium. And for those that want a DIY project, there seem to be plenty of folks doing CNC conversions of second-hand manual mills.
  - Ccecil 14d ago
    Funny you mention Makera. They use a fork of Smoothieware. [1] We were happy/surprised to see they shared their mods. It is rare. [1]https://github.com/MakeraInc/CarveraFirmware https://github.com/MakeraInc/CarveraFirmware
- Joel_Mckay 14d ago
  Steel and aluminum costs way more than it did last year, as the tariffs are hitting the small manufacturers first. Openbuilds was a slotted 2020 china rail kit company, and was very clear about community members being not allowed to post unrelated projects. There was nothing really "open" about their site, but it was more of a Mecano like product. Sherline CNC mills were never as solid as Taig, but the mini-lathes were workable for small hobby projects (had mine for years till upgrading to a South Bend antique.) 3D printers are easier to use given they handle geometry impossible for milling. If I have a choice between printing or cutting a herringbone gear, than printing wins every time (time cost is zero for automation.) There is also the export restriction on 5-axis machine CAM software now. Small CNC machines are a great way to learn, but most kids no longer have $7k to spend on a hobby. If you have long term space on property, than a full-sized worn old mill is a better investment (just don't climb mill if you want reasonable tolerances.) The problem isn't just hobby mills/lathes, but many firms went under in the past few decades. Domestic manufacturers have mostly lost the skills needed to build things themselves. It is funny seeing old 1950's US milling machines (sold as scrap iron) still running small business in the India industrial strip. Hobby 3D metal-printing + EDM/Grinder technology will probably fill the void, but people are going to see more suboptimal oddball composites. >Maybe it's by design? I don't know. Unlikely, just other people making money off of peoples short-term thinking. =3 Even China had a hard time keeping its milling factories fed over the years. The only difference was their government recognized the strategic importance. It is why you can now find drill/tap/chamfer combination carbide end mills in every metric size you could want. >The ability to make things at home is disappearing It is changing, for example instead of using noisy cutters people use shears to cut SAC305 solder bars. As in a hobby class 7 zone building space, your neighbors don't want to deal with noise, dust, or weird smells etc. One will also see more low cost 3D printed mild steel in home 3D printers, as the amount of physical space needed to print an engine block for example is smaller than a fridge. The future is here, but people in the US will have to wait a few more years. You already know why =3
  - aaronblohowiak 13d ago
    Where can I learn more about metal SLS that costs less than 50k USD?
- sokoloff 14d ago
  I think it’s never been a better time to be an at-home maker. I built 3 Voron printers because there wasn’t a way to get close to that performance at a price I would choose to pay. I hand-converted a HF mill to DRO then to 2-axis CNC. I can buy printers that are 90-95% as good for well under $1000 and 75-85% as good for $350 now. CNC routers are readily available and good. Laser cutters are readily available, reasonably cheap, and good. I just don’t see a broad migration to importing maker parts (other than PCBB/PCBA, which is phenomenal).
- lovich 14d ago
  > i.e. Reprap Nah, we just went with Bambu. No shade to the reprap community but my enjoyment of the hobby is with the printing of models, not tinkering with my machine constantly. The amount of failed builds I got with the prusa xl due to its tool changer meant it was the last prusa my household will ever get
- tonyhart7 13d ago
  most western country transition to service based economy also cause this its just different times
- kakwa_ 13d ago
  Most makers I know prefer to make stuff at themselves. If anything, it permits to iterate more quickly and grants much more satisfaction in the end. But nearly all of them want to make stuff... not make the tool that makes stuff. It's the whole "my hobby is 3d printing" vs "my hobby is 3d printers". Assembling a Voron is already a one or two week-ends project, building and configuring a custom CNC router can take months and there are class of tools which are simply inaccessible (making multi-layer PCBs, building anything rigid enough for steel machining). Homebrew machines will always have its aficionados, people still are building Vorons for example, even when it doesn't really make sense financially or in terms of performance. But it's a niche that only grew early-one artificially when it's the only path (ex: reprap & early 3dp days), most people don't actually enjoy this part. IMHO, having cheap ($500 or less) numerically controlled pre-made tools like 3d printers, laser cutters/engravers and lately maybe desktop CNCs, has been a blessing in the maker space, lowering the barrier to entry and enabling an explosion in the number of people building stuff.
- jpatten 13d ago
  It could also be that Sherline has much more and tougher competition these days. When I looked at getting a small mill 20 years ago, it felt like there weren't many options. Now every week it feels like there's a new Kickstarter claiming to "finally" make desktop cnc machining of metal (aluminum) parts easy. Some of the software on these looks pretty approachable for beginners, and the prices are often lower than what sherline offered too. I've never used any of this form factor of CNC machine so I can't comment on the quality, but at one point I thought long and hard about getting one and the newer designs seemed more appealing
jordanb 14d ago
Real bummer I have their manual lathe and mill and have made a lot of things it would have been impossible to make without the ability to machine (even at small scale their machines could do). One reason why I bought sherline is the company was still in business and creating so many accessories. I guess I'll be trying to buy stuff off of eBay or something like I would have been doing had I bought Chinese stuff. Speaking of which does anyone know the details of their small 60 degree carbide inserts? I assume that don't make those themselves.
softwaredoug 14d ago
> Unfortunately, the manufacturing environment has changed dramatically. The effects of COVID, increasing manufacturing and operating costs, and significant changes in consumer purchasing habits have made it increasingly difficult for a small American manufacturer such as Sherline to maintain the workforce and production levels necessary to remain competitive. Can’t help but wonder if “operating costs” include tariffs and other policy decisions by the current administration that have driven up costs for everyone.
- Ccecil 14d ago
  Speaking from my personal observations... It is not just tariffs. The cost of living in the US, especially housing, has approximately doubled in my area since 2019. There is a massive overinvestment in real estate. When housing costs go up it forces companies to pay their employees more to adjust which then drives up the COGS. This becomes a feedback loop because the real estate investors see the prices go up and say "well we have to raise rents because COGS are going up." Competing with any offshore becomes impossible (especially when compared to countries which subsidize their production). Companies close instead of attempting to compete. Why would you when simply investing in real estate, crypto or AI would net more money? The parts needed to produce in the US are typically not made in the US. Tariffs hurt...a lot...the companies I work with directly (including mine) have been struggling with them for a decade now. But it is a lot more than that...there is a general lack of interest in making things that are real. Plus, the cost if you attempt to do so puts you in a position where you cannot be competitive.
  - K0balt 14d ago
    +1 on the tarrifs and the cost of living. We actually left the USA and moved to the Caribbean because our R&D was being burned up in tarrifs; actually cheaper to move the operation. It’s stupid to raise tarrifs overnight when there are no comparable domestic alternatives. A 5 year, stable plan to ramp tariffs? Sure. That builds a runway for local supply and transition. Random tariff adjustment between 0-200% changing every month? Absolute poison for innovation, and local suppliers can’t ramp on chaos. The cost of living, also, needs a reframe. The real truth there is that most people, who live paycheck to paycheck, are half as prosperous as they were a couple of years ago. Think about that. The Majority of an entire country became twice as poor practically overnight. It’s not cost of living rising , it’s standard of living being halved for most Americans. It’s not a small thing, and it will have reprocussions for decades. A population on strong retrograde prosperity does not innovate, does not invent, does not plan for the future. It’s basically terminal cancer. No doubt innovation will rise once the ashes cool, but that’s more like what we are seeing in Eastern Europe, admirable and significant, but no equivalence whatsoever to the economic juggernaut that the USA once was. (And still is, for now) Maybe automation will turn that around, but who then is the beneficiary of a fleet of millions (billions?) of corporate owned general purpose humanoid robots? That’s a big part of what my startup is working on ; making that phase generally useful to regular people, not just corporate giants.
mlhpdx 14d ago
Wow, what a disappointment. I’ve found it funny over the years when people are shocked to hear me talking about machining, when they themselves have woodworking tools. Cutting metal, cutting wood, even cutting paper - all useful for making and fixing. I earned an MSME without ever learning to actually make things, so once I could afford it I bought a Sherline CNC mill and taught myself to use it. I made many mistakes but got there. I used it just last week to make a wind gauge mounting bracket for a 70 year old sailboat. I liked that it was made in the USA and (at the time, pre mainstream internet) had a great community to learn from. I know there are other options still, but Sherline has a fond place in my heart for how easy they made it to get started.
- Reddit_MLP2 14d ago
  I also think Sherline machines have good value. Were they the cheapest, no, but they actually worked really well in my experience for their size. I only have their manual lathe, but it was a MUCH higher quality machine than my larger 7x14 from china. It just feels like everything is either a race to the bottom, enshittification and/or both right now.
carterschonwald 14d ago
the current white house really fucked over all the smaller domestic manufacturers. and scientists. and um america basically
- esseph 14d ago
  Everything. If you are a builder, there is no sane way to bid on contracts with such hugely variable COGS. And how the HELL do you even attempt to fix the US housing supply if you are tariffing Canadian lumber? You can't.
  - pixl97 14d ago
    Guess this is what happens when you elect a group that prioritizes enriching themselves over ensuring you don't starve in the street like a filthy animal.
  - mschuster91 14d ago
    As for the housing... stop using lumber maybe? Us Europeans build houses out of bricks and mortar or outright concrete. Lumber framing only makes sense if you want something dirt cheap (and yet, US matchsticks and cardboard houses go for millions of dollars?!) or something that needs to be earthquake resilient and affordable.
    - esseph 14d ago
      I have a video for this. It's because of our earthquakes and the severity of our storms. The lumber frame and design of construction flexes and sways when stone and brick would break (tornados are different story). Likewise when they do break, and they absolutely will given some of these forces, it doesn't bankrupt people and companies when trying to recover from those events. Bigger buildings of concrete, stone and brick here are now built very different, sometimes on giant metal plates with actual springs. Here you go: https://youtube.com/shorts/jFph1d2WR3s https://youtube.com/shorts/jFph1d2WR3s Btw: > or something that needs to be earthquake resilient and affordable https://earthquake.alaska.edu/earthquakes https://earthquake.alaska.edu/earthquakes
dpmartinez 14d ago
Sad. Is there a free alternative to this ideally community owned and open source?
- convolvatron 14d ago
  the sherline designs aren't particularly notable, and they're pretty easy to replicate if you have working machine tools that are larger. any machinist could make a sherline mill or lathe, but without that floorspace and capex and skill, one really can't. I spent overly long trying to learn on sherline tools and once I gave up and bought a Bridgeport and an old Logan, I realized that I was just banging my head against the limitations of the tools. the value they had was that they were cheaper than the smaller version of the standard toolroom machines, and they were a way to bootstrap yourself without having the heavy power and the floorspace. so pretty much the storefront, not the IP. I still have their 4" rotary, and its actually not bad. the mill had a huge amount of flex in the column that made it pretty unusable for me unless you took really really tiny passes. I had an old Unimat for a couple years, and while that was even _more_ dodgy than the sherline the fact that it was all steel and a combined mill/lathe made it a lot more interesting. would rather see some community standards for tooling on a platform like that. maybe a 50% larger so setup isn't so fiddly.
  - abakker 14d ago
    100% They were fine for what they were, but once you use a big tool you just can’t go back. I think there is plenty of room for innovation in hobby machines, but IME, hobbiest value work envelope maybe even more than pros.
    - WillAdams 13d ago
      Given that the Gingery books folks are shutting down as well: https://gingerybookstore.com/ https://gingerybookstore.com/ one wonders what the other alternatives are. I mentioned Taig elsethread, and the Unimat is still available at https://thecooltool.com/en/ https://thecooltool.com/en/ --- for opensource there are a couple of options: - https://www.lathes.co.uk/multimachine/ https://www.lathes.co.uk/multimachine/ - https://www.printables.com/model/89657-3d-printed-wood-lathe-v2 https://www.printables.com/model/89657-3d-printed-wood-lathe... and I've been debating on getting a small Grizzly G0745: https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-4-x-6-variable-speed-benchtop-metal-lathe/g0745 https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-4-x-6-variable-spee... Are there other notable approaches/options?
giantg2 14d ago
I want a small lathe and mill. The prices are just too high to justify with my limited use. Instead, I use a 3D printer and I'm making a CNC router.
- SoftTalker 14d ago
  You may have already ruled it out, but many communities have maker spaces where expensive equipment that might normally be out of reach is available on a shared basis. Some universities may also have ways to use their maker spaces on weekends or when classes are not in session.
  - giantg2 13d ago
    I thought of that and may still go that route if I really need a precision metal part. But it's a drive and I can do most stuff with other tools. I could even 3D print a part, mold it, then cast it in metal if I need to.
  - bluGill 13d ago
    My local maker space exists, but it turns a 30 minute go if I have time to something I need to plan for. Most days by the time I'm done with work, supper... there isn't enough time before bed to go to the tools I have. If I had to go to the makerspace it would be even less time because just to touch the tools and go home I've already used nearly an hour. When I work on my own I can leave a part in the lathe for next time, or skip cleanup (for a small mess this is okay), that isn't allowed in the maker space (for good reason).
- throwaway2037 13d ago
  For this project, do you have a YouTube channel or a blog? It would hit like catnip around here.
firesteelrain 14d ago
How much is because of Chinese clones/stealing of IP thus making manufacturing in the US cost prohibitive?
- SoftTalker 14d ago
  Most of it.
- applfanboysbgon 14d ago
  Sad to see racist yellow scare bogeyman stuff going on at every little thing. You really think Sherline had some amazing hobby lathe IP that was just so far intellectually beyond what an educational powerhouse of a country with 1.6 billion people could ever come up with?
  - firesteelrain 14d ago
    Yes, I agree that China can copy Sherline’s IP and it’s a form of theft. An estimated 70-80% of the parts can probably be made in China. If you would like a breakdown I can provide it. Sherline, for example, specifies spindle nose runout of 0.0005 inch or less and spindle end play around 0.0002 inch or less, using two 20-mm ball bearings with adjustable preload. That’s only about 13 µm runout. A Chinese factory can absolutely manufacture that. Manufacturers such as SIEG took conventional lathe architecture and mass-produced it. There is nothing original going on there lots of copying
    - lenkite 14d ago
      But isn't this completely fine ? The US became an industrial powerhouse by doing the same. Even barred foreign inventors from obtaining parents in the US. The U.S. Patent Act of 1793 was explicitly structured to favor domestic industrial growth at the expense of foreign inventors. Provided total legal immunity within the U.S. for commercializing pirated ideas. Only when the US became #1, did international protection of its patents became a priority. China merely followed the American approach towards industrial success.
probably_wrong 14d ago
I'd like to throw an idea to those who know better than I do. Ever since I started living on my own I've lived in apartments, none of which had a backyard (one of them had a parking lot). None of my friends owns a house either. I'm the perfect customer for this and I'd love to do my own projects (two of which require a lathe!) but I simply don't have the space. Is this just me? Or is the disappearance of the hobby garage a real phenomenon? A 3D printer is fairly limited in what it allows, but it also doesn't throw sawdust in the center of my living room.
- jakintosh 14d ago
  This is generally what a makerspace is for. I don’t know what the (inter)national landscape is like for them, but I have a small 8’x8’ studio space at the makerspace in my city, which also has a full wood shop, metal shop, and tons of rapid prototyping tools (3d printers, vinyl cutter, etc). I live in a 1BR apartment downtown and the makerspace is in an industrial district that is a 5-minute bike ride away, and it’s basically my “garage”, just shared with 30 other studios and probably 200 non-studio members who come and go.
  - CharlieDigital 14d ago
    The US is kind of "collapsing" in third spaces both public and private, but especially public due to funding cuts.
    - bluGill 13d ago
      That is the meme, but there are plenty of third spaces. They have changed, and will likely continue to change, but people who live in the US find them.
  - myself248 13d ago
    This is precisely what makerspaces are for. There are many operating models. Some are attached to another organization (a library, a university), some are commercial (RIP Techshop), some are completely DIY and member-run. Any given city might have a handful of different ones, but you'll have to dig around and visit a few to see what you vibe with. Caveat, it's very easy to get focused on the ooh-shiny tools, and forget to pay attention to the community energy and expectations. Some of the more professional spaces, you just pay for what you want, and staff takes care of the rest. At the other end of the scale, the fully-DIY places are very much a case of "you get out of it what you put into it", and may offer cheaper memberships but expect a lot more involvement. Visit as many as you can.
obscurette 14d ago
My wife is in manufacturing and although not in US, working for a company having production in US, EU, Asia etc. Her 1-minute comments why it's increasingly difficult to produce something in EU and US. Bureaucracy - the levels of it are insane especially in EU, but US is not far behind. The loss of local partners and environment - every little thing you can do locally makes production easier and cheaper. Failure to attract young people – although production is cool, it's not Youtube influencer level cool and industry relies increasingly on older generations. Education - the quality of it is sinking almost all over the world. Insecurity - partly just part of times, but mostly coming from regulation, taxes etc.
- ponector 14d ago
  >> it's not Youtube influencer level cool and industry relies increasingly on older generations Usually it means the pay is crap, the schedule is bad and nobody is willing to invest into training. Why should young people select such career?
  - in_absentia 13d ago
    Strongly disagree on that last part. Unlike software engineering, where training is nearly non-existent and we expect everyone to show to their first job interview knowing about the big-O complexity of sorting algorithms, traditional manufacturing has a robust tradition of apprenticeship and training on the job. It also has much better and more predictable hours than, say, the ever-popular gaming industry. You're right that low pay is an issue, but pay is crap in part because of outsourcing. Any machine shop in the US is competing with China to an extent that, oddly, we don't actually see in the software space. The West is mostly using Western-made software, and outside of that, only India is invited to the club (and even that only as a subcontractor). But a lot of it is also just culture / parenting. Every parent wants their kid to become a software engineer, a lawyer, or a doctor. There's basically zero pride in being a machinist.
    - coryrc 13d ago
      There'd be pride if it paid similarly to a doctor.
johnohara 14d ago
Tip of the hat to Australian Harold Clisby. https://www.lathes.co.uk/clisby/index.html https://www.lathes.co.uk/clisby/index.html Well done sir.
- WillAdams 13d ago
  Is there a good book (or web page) documenting the history of such small lathes/machines and their designers? There seems to be a lot of misinformation (folks claiming Gingery was melting down working machines to make his, when they were iron or steel and he was casting aluminum)....
kqr2 14d ago
What is the best replacement for hobbyists?
- tejtm 14d ago
  complacent consumers. Oh wait you meant something else, Myself I am biased towards antique manual machines, if you are not in a hurry you can push them beyond what we might expect.
- WillAdams 13d ago
  Taig maybe? https://taigtools.com/ https://taigtools.com/ (ob. discl., I work for a hobbyist CNC company, but we don't offer a 4th axis or lathe)
- annoyingnoob 13d ago
  I purchased a Taig earlier this year. It is for small stuff and/or softer materials.
jszymborski 14d ago
All these tariffs haven't saved US manufacturing? Colour me shocked ? /s
kqr2 14d ago
Mods: can we just link to the actual announcement instead of a blog: https://www.sherline.com/an-important-message-to-our-sherline-customers/ https://www.sherline.com/an-important-message-to-our-sherlin...
ltbarcly3 14d ago
> When we took over the company in 2017… It was bought out by employees in 2017 and it seems like they weren't able to manage it successfully. The two that acquired it were well over 70 when they did so, so I guess this isn't very surprising. From the article it sounds like they spent a lot of money trying to 'modernize' the business, which sounds a lot like they brought in management that was more interested in 'doing management. than making money.
- jordanb 14d ago
  > they brought in management that was more interested in 'doing management. than making money. Boy it'd be tragic if these guys felt like they were over their heads, decided to "hire some experts" and ended up with MBAs.
abakker 14d ago
There’s some other threads in this discussion bemoaning the lack of diy machine builders…and, I am really unclear how this Sherline issue is related? To me, this is a question of value for money. Sherline products were always interesting, but also nowhere near competitive as machines. With controllers like masso and acorn available, converting a mill like a grizzly, precision Mathews or even a Bridgeport are just way more value for money. The other end of the spectrum is tools like the Langmuir bed mill/router or the avid benchtop routers with available 4 pole spindles. There’s a lot of options, closed loop steppers are sub $100, servos from DMM or teknic are readily available and awesome. Sherline has a product set that just felt like a compromise on everything. In the last decade, I’ve built 3 routers, rebuilt a bed mill, converted a Bridgeport, and am currently building an automated beam saw. All the options in the market are drastically better than they were 15 years ago. It’s sad to see a fixture of the community going out of business, but it also a reflection that the business is different now. Given the many different kits and options available, it just doesn’t make sense to buy small work envelope machines for most people.
- Aurornis 14d ago
  Sherline was good for businesses and labs that needed a light mill for rare use. Hobby users weren’t a good market because they’re always searching for used deals and conversions. I haven’t shopped the Sherline catalog in a long time but this appears to be a case of a company failing to keep up with changing market conditions. Depending on how old the owners were, that may have been not too unreasonable. Some of these companies get founded by people who put a lot of work into establishing the small business, make their wealth, and then make the choice to let the business continue operating as a lifestyle business with low inputs until the income drops too low to pay the expenses. Not every company is designed to be a multi generational juggernaut.
morio 14d ago
I own a lathe and mill from them, both converted to CNC. Sadly their products have changed little in 30+ years. Their precision parts have a use in some applications but it's vastly overshadowed by the cheap parts available from Asia (including India now). 3D printers, laser cutters and benchtop CNC routers have the taken over the lion share of what hobbyists (and some professionals) used to do with these machines. Mine are just collecting dust while my 3D printers crank out parts every day.
- dyauspitr 14d ago
  What parts are from India? I do a lot of CNC work and parts from India are acceptable but most importantly dirt cheap.
trentor 14d ago
Sad but I have to say they just stood still for 20 years and tried catching up in the last 5 that never works out.
dyauspitr 14d ago
I considered their manual mill when I first wanted to get into CNC but then realized that a manual mill makes no sense for anything really anymore. Anything short of a CNC is a waste of time.
- WillAdams 13d ago
  There's a lot to be said for a manual approach for certain tasks. For an extreme example of partisanship on this, see the Youtube channel "Inheritance Machining"
  - kakwa_ 13d ago
    I would also recommend "Artisan Makes" and "Blondiehacks" if you want something less stylized & scripted. Plus their machinery is a bit more realistic for a hobbyist.
    - WillAdams 13d ago
      Blondihacks is a favourite along w/ Clickspring and Pask Makes. Haven't found occasion to watch Artisan Makes yet, but it is queued up for the future.
- gaze 13d ago
  I have a manual mill and CNC and use them in roughly equal proportion. They make plenty of sense -- especially if it's a hobby and you don't want to use another computerized thing. Manual machining is very zen.
conorbergin 13d ago
That's a shame, I was considering getting one after seeing Chris of Clickspring recommend them. Hobby machinists are used to using machines built by defunct manufacturers, so I'm sure plenty will stay in circulation.
- mhb 13d ago
  Sherline still has new ones.
a96 13d ago
That's a shame. Though they might get bought out by someone who will keep the products in production? Sherline was one of the rare sane size manual machines that weren't just rebranded Sieg. Actually even the insane ones have largely disappeared. Only options are antiques and Taig. And in many places in the world, all three of those options are completely unobtainable. Only the Sieg machines remain. Personally, I don't care because I managed to find an antique machine or two that should last a lifetime and Sherline isn't really something I could buy here, but I know there's people who are dreaming of having a lathe and possibly a mill that doesn't take a separate building with reinforced floor to own and no options left. (Ok, Proxxon also exists.)
tlb 13d ago
I learned to machine on their machines, before graduating to full-sized units. They were great for learning, because they had all the essential features of professional manual machines, but couldn't cause as much damage when something went wrong. And they were delightfully made and easy to take apart and modify. Sad.

248 points by tliltocatl 14d ago

This is too bad. I've got both their mill and their lathe, and they've been great for making replacement parts for antique clocks.

Ccecil 14d ago

Sad news. First, Openbuilds now this. Not a surprise to me though since I am operating in the CNC industry I have seen the same struggles and changes, albeit, from a slightly different perspective. I work with the Smoothieware/Smoothieboard project. It seems, from my observation, that most people are not working with hardware like they were a few years ago. The "homebrew" machines and shadetree makers are becoming few and far between. The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects. Not only that but people have been convinced that they don't have the ability to make a machine. Instead of spending time learning something new/valuable (i.e. Reprap) it is now popular to just have someone else do it...be it AI or a factory in another country with subsidies that create massive differences in bottom line. The ability to make things at home is disappearing. People cannot/will not learn to make their own machines. Companies that make machines that care about their community and customers are disappearing. Maybe it's by design? I don't know.

JoshTriplett 14d ago
> The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects. I've seen what people go through when they operate 3D printers. The impression I have is that they still make 2D inkjet printers look like paragons of reliability.
- Ccecil 14d ago
  I wouldn't trade that time spent on my printers for anything. I wrote a post about this recently [1] There was way more valuable things learned in the process than just making Benchy. For years I have been trying to tell people this. The value of Reprap was not just "to have a printer". [1] https://www.robosprout.com/thank-you-reprap-for-all-of-it/ https://www.robosprout.com/thank-you-reprap-for-all-of-it/
  - JoshTriplett 14d ago
    Some people want to have an experience with their printer. Some people want it to be an appliance. If you wanted an appliance, and got an experience, you're going to be disappointed. For people who genuinely wanted the experience of exploring 3D printers, like yourself, I'm very happy that those people got that experience. For myself, just as I want to print documents and not have adventures with inkjet printers, I want to make things and not have adventures with 3D printers. Which is why I have no plans to own a 3D printer.
    - WillAdams 13d ago
      My Elegoo Centauri Carbon and Flashforge AD5X have been pretty much plug in, load filament, calibrate/configure for that filament, print. It or a similar printer (CoreXY, enclosed if you're going to print filaments which warrant that) from a brand w/ a good reputation should work as well.
    - lirolero 13d ago
      [dead]
- alecst 14d ago
  Crazy as it sounds, that’s the opposite of my personal experience.
  - nearlyepic 14d ago
    Yeah in the four years I’ve had my Prusa it’s had basically no problems. They’re a pain in the ass if you buy bottom of the barrel crap with sloppy tolerances for $100 I guess, but the same is true of regular printers.
in_absentia 14d ago
I'm not sure if it's that simple. Many space-intensive DIY hobbies are on the retreat simply because more people are moving into cities or very dense suburbs where you have no practical opportunity to, say, build a woodworking shop. Metalworking was even more severely impacted, for obvious reasons. Also, long before mail-order offshore manufacturing, people have been lured away from most of this by the promise of 3D printing. Every other techie I know owns a 3D printer. Most have not made anything interesting with it because they soon learn that the real difficulty is materials science and 3D design. But as a nerd, it's the thing you're supposed to own. In contrast, I know maybe four people in the SF Bay Area who are into woodworking, metalsmithing, CNC, or stuff like that. I don't see mail-order prototyping as a conspiracy... it's more of a culmination of the DIY community chasing the mirage they were sold on in the early 2010s. I still remember the HN claims: home manufacturing revolution! It's the beginning of a brand new economy, why would anyone buy anything anymore when you can just click "print"... with some amusing parallels to how some folks now talk about building your own software with AI. The mail-order stuff isn't evil insofar that it may allow some people to make things they couldn't make before. On the flip side, it's a very inefficient way to learn, so I think it will reduce hardware literacy among those who could afford a garage workshop. FWIW, I think the same goes for AI-assisted hardware design. On one hand, I see people who otherwise wouldn't be DIYing getting into DIY: "I asked Claude and it one-shotted this rectangular enclosure for me, it's amazing!", "Claude made this RP2350 breakout board for me, how cool is that". But I also see established DIYers getting a degree of brain rot.
- Palomides 14d ago
  we have had a home manufacturing revolution, though, and making every kind of hardware is crazy accessible, look at the explosion of niche products in every single hobby space over the past ten years I miss absolutely nothing about etching my own single layer PCBs at home
  - in_absentia 14d ago
    First, PCBs: neither do I, I'm not sure why you're assuming that's the position I want to take. This has nothing to do with 3D printing or mail-order metal parts. Second, I don't think there's a revolution for the general population. Your archetypal middle-aged dad / curious teenager are DIYing less than 20 years ago, which in turn was less than 40 years ago. The stats here are clear, most of "garage" occupations are on the decline. Less space, higher costs, more emphasis on safety. Some hobbies, such as backyard chemistry, are effectively gone. Shop classes in most schools are gone. Making your own bookshelf or building a radio from a kit is no longer a rite of passage. Third, the "explosion of niche products" - maybe, but I think some of it is just visibility. Kickstarter, HN, Hack-a-Day, and so on. Before that, we had hobby journals for woodworking, electronics, etc, and they were always full of ads for niche gear. You just weren't seeing the totality of it in a doom-scroll loop. Visibility has benefits, but my point is that the qualitative change isn't as profound.
hingler36 14d ago
I feel like this has been a talking point for as long as off-the-shelf printers aimed at hobbyists have existed. Calling them AI factories is a bit off the mark imo, there are plenty of hobbyists that learn CAD and want to make their own stuff, but don't want to build their own printer. The kind of people who are interested in reprap are absolutely still around, and I really don't see that community going dissolving because of the rise of capable commercial printers.
- Ccecil 14d ago
  That wasn't exactly what was said... "it is now popular to just have someone else do it...be it AI or a factory in another country" And sure there are some people interested in reprap but they have been scattered to the wind. #reprap IRC has become an advertising/support channel for commercial printers. If you go to most of the channels/forums where the development used to happen and mention you want to build a printer you will be flooded with responses about how stupid that is and provided with names/links of the printers you should be buying. Making things is a fool's errand. Maybe my observations were different...maybe not...but from what I saw at about 2016 the whole DIY machine thing switched.
  - necovek 14d ago
    I believe part of it is the cost. It used to be too expensive to get something like a decent commercial 3D printer (though at the same time). Now you can get one for less than the cost of RepRap components back in the day, so it is stupid to do it if you just want to print stuff out (it might even be more expensive, and will likely produce worse prints). If, however, you want to learn how to build one, or just have an experience of building your own tool you'll use to create stuff, it is most definitely not stupid to do it. With 3D printing becoming mainstream, you'll have fewer people in those communities who support and live that approach though, and you'll need to look harder to find documentation and like-minded people.
  - hingler36 13d ago
    Thanks for clarifying your point. I didn't know about the reprap IRC channel being dead, that's a real shame
Aurornis 14d ago
> The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects. > The ability to make things at home is disappearing I do not know what you are talking about. 3D printing at home is more popular than ever. Even families I know who don’t have a computer at home, only their phones, now have 3D printers and use them. > People cannot/will not learn to make their own machines I think this is an appeal to 3D printing purity that drove me away from many of the communities. In the early days we all swapped tips and shared reviews of parts (like the Smoothieboard I still have) with other people who liked to build machines because that was the only way to do 3D printing at hobby level prices. When asked what we used the 3D printers for, the joke was that they were used to print parts for our 3D printer. It wasn’t really a joke, though. We spent more time keeping the printers working and trying to tune them than we did printing other things we needed. That has flipped. Now it’s easy to get a cheap 3D printer and start getting parts out of it without thinking about the printer much. This is great if you’re a person who wants to use the output of the printer. This is boring if you think the value is the process of building and changing the printer hardware all the time. I’m tired of hearing takes about how this is wrong or bad. Most “makers” want to make other things, not spend their precious free time trying to debug failing prints. There are more opportunities and knowledge available now for people who do want to build their own machines and it’s very cheap. People who want to do that can, but don’t look down upon the people who don’t want to do that.
- Teever 14d ago
  > There are more opportunities and knowledge available now for people who do want to build their own machines and it’s very cheap. And what happens if China decides that it is no longer in their interest to allow Americans access to cheap aluminum extrusions, hotends, motors, and controllers? Between the American tariffs and Chinese prioritization of 3d printing in a past five year plan American hobbyists and small scale producers are in a potential bind.
  - Aurornis 14d ago
    > And what happens if China decides that it is no longer in their interest to allow Americans access to cheap aluminum extrusions, hotends, motors, and controllers? Then home 3D printing will be the least of our concerns? What kind of question is this?
fotbr 14d ago
Do you expect the homeowner that needs to mow their lawn to build their own lawnmower? How about the "tech savvy" homeowner that wants an automated lawnmower? Should they be derided for buying one of the robot mowers instead of building their own? Should the person that needs a hammer and nails to build a raised bed for their gardening hobby be required to make the hammer or the nails, in the name of "learning something new/valuable"? It comes down to the fact that these things are tools. Now that reasonably affordable "turnkey" or "off the shelf" options are available, what you're really seeing is the divide between those wanting building the tool itself as their hobby, and those that just want a tool to use on their other hobbies. There was less of a divide previously because for most people, the "just buy one" option simply didn't exist. Now it does. I spent a lot of time over the years wire-wrapping circuits, then manually laying out and etching/making circuit boards, then using software to do the layouts while still etching/drilling boards myself, then learning and switching the bulk of my projects to surface-mount. It was a necessary part of making electronic bits for stuff I wanted, but I didn't enjoy that part. Now that I can draw something up, send it off and for a few bucks have professionally manufactured multi-layer boards in days/weeks, with many/most components already placed and soldered, why wouldn't I cut out the part I don't enjoy? I played with 3d printers off and on from about 2006 onwards, though I never kept one around for any real length of time. I found that while I really wanted the capabilities, I didn't want "building and keeping a 3d printer running" to be my hobby. 20 years later, there are options that don't require printer maintenance to be it's own hobby, and I'm much more willing to keep one around. I've had a couple Chinese-made mini-mills since 2002 -- Sieg X2s, if I remember the old naming scheme correctly, though they were sold by various importers with their own names/model numbers. I converted one to CNC operation in 2004. While I appreciate the work done by others that I could learn from, I did not enjoy the process or the project. If there had been a reasonably affordable "turnkey" option with the capabilities I wanted, I would have 100% taken it. If I needed another one now, with the options available, there's no way I'd bother to build my own. Even then, I would have gone with sherline's early cnc offerings -- they fit my budget, but were just too small for what I wanted to do. My first CNC router was scratch-built in the early 2000s. My current one came in a crate 4 years ago, and cost about half of what building a new one with the same capabilities from scratch would have. Instead of spending a several months' worth of weekends building it, I spent one weekend unpacking it and setting it up, another fine-tuning it and the software settings, and then was able to start using it for projects I enjoyed. The ability for people to make things at home is expanding, just not in the way you'd like to see. That isn't a bad thing. At the end of the day, time is what is ultimately valuable, and I don't have nearly as much of it as I did when I was younger. At this point, I'd much rather spend what time I do have enjoying my hobbies and creating the things I want to create, not building tools or suffering through tasks I hate simply because someone else thinks that is the important part. It seems I'm not the only one. As for companies that "care" disappearing, well, that's just the current business environment. When the only measure of success that's deemed important is the stock value -- or potential stock value, in the case of startups -- customer service is an expense that can be cut to inflate next months' quarterly report. In exchange, the concept of customer loyalty is dying as well.
steve-atx-7600 14d ago
Re: factory in another country: I use and recommend craftcloud (Germany company that facilitates having your uploaded model be printed wherever and however you choose (and see prices of course). I am always able to find companies in the USA to print my designs. I had repeated good results with https://hudsoncreativegroup.com/ https://hudsoncreativegroup.com/ in AR. The only reason I haven’t done it myself is because I don’t have time to do it often enough and each time I get back into it I have to relearn about the material choice tradeoffs. If I had a better grasp of these things and get a less demanding tech job/replaced by AI :), I would research buying one.
Youden 14d ago
I think maybe your view is too narrow? It's not that people don't want to make a machine, it's that now they don't have to. When I started hobby CNC a few years ago, the only compact or desktop CNC machines were flimsy Chinese things made entirely of extrusion, expensive machines made for education/prototyping environments and the Carbide3D Nomad (which I ended up buying). I ended up building a machine from scratch because the original Nomad was too flimsy to really cut metals, even Aluminium. But in the last few years companies like Makera came along and sell desktop CNC machines that can cut metal for under $6k USD and there's even a toolchanger. For just a little more, there's a Kickstarter for a 5-axis machine with mist cooling, ATC a wireless probe and it can cut steel and titanium. And for those that want a DIY project, there seem to be plenty of folks doing CNC conversions of second-hand manual mills.
- Ccecil 14d ago
  Funny you mention Makera. They use a fork of Smoothieware. [1] We were happy/surprised to see they shared their mods. It is rare. [1]https://github.com/MakeraInc/CarveraFirmware https://github.com/MakeraInc/CarveraFirmware
Joel_Mckay 14d ago
Steel and aluminum costs way more than it did last year, as the tariffs are hitting the small manufacturers first. Openbuilds was a slotted 2020 china rail kit company, and was very clear about community members being not allowed to post unrelated projects. There was nothing really "open" about their site, but it was more of a Mecano like product. Sherline CNC mills were never as solid as Taig, but the mini-lathes were workable for small hobby projects (had mine for years till upgrading to a South Bend antique.) 3D printers are easier to use given they handle geometry impossible for milling. If I have a choice between printing or cutting a herringbone gear, than printing wins every time (time cost is zero for automation.) There is also the export restriction on 5-axis machine CAM software now. Small CNC machines are a great way to learn, but most kids no longer have $7k to spend on a hobby. If you have long term space on property, than a full-sized worn old mill is a better investment (just don't climb mill if you want reasonable tolerances.) The problem isn't just hobby mills/lathes, but many firms went under in the past few decades. Domestic manufacturers have mostly lost the skills needed to build things themselves. It is funny seeing old 1950's US milling machines (sold as scrap iron) still running small business in the India industrial strip. Hobby 3D metal-printing + EDM/Grinder technology will probably fill the void, but people are going to see more suboptimal oddball composites. >Maybe it's by design? I don't know. Unlikely, just other people making money off of peoples short-term thinking. =3 Even China had a hard time keeping its milling factories fed over the years. The only difference was their government recognized the strategic importance. It is why you can now find drill/tap/chamfer combination carbide end mills in every metric size you could want. >The ability to make things at home is disappearing It is changing, for example instead of using noisy cutters people use shears to cut SAC305 solder bars. As in a hobby class 7 zone building space, your neighbors don't want to deal with noise, dust, or weird smells etc. One will also see more low cost 3D printed mild steel in home 3D printers, as the amount of physical space needed to print an engine block for example is smaller than a fridge. The future is here, but people in the US will have to wait a few more years. You already know why =3
- aaronblohowiak 13d ago
  Where can I learn more about metal SLS that costs less than 50k USD?
sokoloff 14d ago
I think it’s never been a better time to be an at-home maker. I built 3 Voron printers because there wasn’t a way to get close to that performance at a price I would choose to pay. I hand-converted a HF mill to DRO then to 2-axis CNC. I can buy printers that are 90-95% as good for well under $1000 and 75-85% as good for $350 now. CNC routers are readily available and good. Laser cutters are readily available, reasonably cheap, and good. I just don’t see a broad migration to importing maker parts (other than PCBB/PCBA, which is phenomenal).
lovich 14d ago
> i.e. Reprap Nah, we just went with Bambu. No shade to the reprap community but my enjoyment of the hobby is with the printing of models, not tinkering with my machine constantly. The amount of failed builds I got with the prusa xl due to its tool changer meant it was the last prusa my household will ever get
tonyhart7 13d ago
most western country transition to service based economy also cause this its just different times
kakwa_ 13d ago
Most makers I know prefer to make stuff at themselves. If anything, it permits to iterate more quickly and grants much more satisfaction in the end. But nearly all of them want to make stuff... not make the tool that makes stuff. It's the whole "my hobby is 3d printing" vs "my hobby is 3d printers". Assembling a Voron is already a one or two week-ends project, building and configuring a custom CNC router can take months and there are class of tools which are simply inaccessible (making multi-layer PCBs, building anything rigid enough for steel machining). Homebrew machines will always have its aficionados, people still are building Vorons for example, even when it doesn't really make sense financially or in terms of performance. But it's a niche that only grew early-one artificially when it's the only path (ex: reprap & early 3dp days), most people don't actually enjoy this part. IMHO, having cheap ($500 or less) numerically controlled pre-made tools like 3d printers, laser cutters/engravers and lately maybe desktop CNCs, has been a blessing in the maker space, lowering the barrier to entry and enabling an explosion in the number of people building stuff.
jpatten 13d ago
It could also be that Sherline has much more and tougher competition these days. When I looked at getting a small mill 20 years ago, it felt like there weren't many options. Now every week it feels like there's a new Kickstarter claiming to "finally" make desktop cnc machining of metal (aluminum) parts easy. Some of the software on these looks pretty approachable for beginners, and the prices are often lower than what sherline offered too. I've never used any of this form factor of CNC machine so I can't comment on the quality, but at one point I thought long and hard about getting one and the newer designs seemed more appealing

jordanb 14d ago

Real bummer I have their manual lathe and mill and have made a lot of things it would have been impossible to make without the ability to machine (even at small scale their machines could do). One reason why I bought sherline is the company was still in business and creating so many accessories. I guess I'll be trying to buy stuff off of eBay or something like I would have been doing had I bought Chinese stuff. Speaking of which does anyone know the details of their small 60 degree carbide inserts? I assume that don't make those themselves.

softwaredoug 14d ago

> Unfortunately, the manufacturing environment has changed dramatically. The effects of COVID, increasing manufacturing and operating costs, and significant changes in consumer purchasing habits have made it increasingly difficult for a small American manufacturer such as Sherline to maintain the workforce and production levels necessary to remain competitive. Can’t help but wonder if “operating costs” include tariffs and other policy decisions by the current administration that have driven up costs for everyone.

Ccecil 14d ago
Speaking from my personal observations... It is not just tariffs. The cost of living in the US, especially housing, has approximately doubled in my area since 2019. There is a massive overinvestment in real estate. When housing costs go up it forces companies to pay their employees more to adjust which then drives up the COGS. This becomes a feedback loop because the real estate investors see the prices go up and say "well we have to raise rents because COGS are going up." Competing with any offshore becomes impossible (especially when compared to countries which subsidize their production). Companies close instead of attempting to compete. Why would you when simply investing in real estate, crypto or AI would net more money? The parts needed to produce in the US are typically not made in the US. Tariffs hurt...a lot...the companies I work with directly (including mine) have been struggling with them for a decade now. But it is a lot more than that...there is a general lack of interest in making things that are real. Plus, the cost if you attempt to do so puts you in a position where you cannot be competitive.
- K0balt 14d ago
  +1 on the tarrifs and the cost of living. We actually left the USA and moved to the Caribbean because our R&D was being burned up in tarrifs; actually cheaper to move the operation. It’s stupid to raise tarrifs overnight when there are no comparable domestic alternatives. A 5 year, stable plan to ramp tariffs? Sure. That builds a runway for local supply and transition. Random tariff adjustment between 0-200% changing every month? Absolute poison for innovation, and local suppliers can’t ramp on chaos. The cost of living, also, needs a reframe. The real truth there is that most people, who live paycheck to paycheck, are half as prosperous as they were a couple of years ago. Think about that. The Majority of an entire country became twice as poor practically overnight. It’s not cost of living rising , it’s standard of living being halved for most Americans. It’s not a small thing, and it will have reprocussions for decades. A population on strong retrograde prosperity does not innovate, does not invent, does not plan for the future. It’s basically terminal cancer. No doubt innovation will rise once the ashes cool, but that’s more like what we are seeing in Eastern Europe, admirable and significant, but no equivalence whatsoever to the economic juggernaut that the USA once was. (And still is, for now) Maybe automation will turn that around, but who then is the beneficiary of a fleet of millions (billions?) of corporate owned general purpose humanoid robots? That’s a big part of what my startup is working on ; making that phase generally useful to regular people, not just corporate giants.

mlhpdx 14d ago

Wow, what a disappointment. I’ve found it funny over the years when people are shocked to hear me talking about machining, when they themselves have woodworking tools. Cutting metal, cutting wood, even cutting paper - all useful for making and fixing. I earned an MSME without ever learning to actually make things, so once I could afford it I bought a Sherline CNC mill and taught myself to use it. I made many mistakes but got there. I used it just last week to make a wind gauge mounting bracket for a 70 year old sailboat. I liked that it was made in the USA and (at the time, pre mainstream internet) had a great community to learn from. I know there are other options still, but Sherline has a fond place in my heart for how easy they made it to get started.

Reddit_MLP2 14d ago
I also think Sherline machines have good value. Were they the cheapest, no, but they actually worked really well in my experience for their size. I only have their manual lathe, but it was a MUCH higher quality machine than my larger 7x14 from china. It just feels like everything is either a race to the bottom, enshittification and/or both right now.

carterschonwald 14d ago

the current white house really fucked over all the smaller domestic manufacturers. and scientists. and um america basically

esseph 14d ago
Everything. If you are a builder, there is no sane way to bid on contracts with such hugely variable COGS. And how the HELL do you even attempt to fix the US housing supply if you are tariffing Canadian lumber? You can't.
- pixl97 14d ago
  Guess this is what happens when you elect a group that prioritizes enriching themselves over ensuring you don't starve in the street like a filthy animal.
- mschuster91 14d ago
  As for the housing... stop using lumber maybe? Us Europeans build houses out of bricks and mortar or outright concrete. Lumber framing only makes sense if you want something dirt cheap (and yet, US matchsticks and cardboard houses go for millions of dollars?!) or something that needs to be earthquake resilient and affordable.
  - esseph 14d ago
    I have a video for this. It's because of our earthquakes and the severity of our storms. The lumber frame and design of construction flexes and sways when stone and brick would break (tornados are different story). Likewise when they do break, and they absolutely will given some of these forces, it doesn't bankrupt people and companies when trying to recover from those events. Bigger buildings of concrete, stone and brick here are now built very different, sometimes on giant metal plates with actual springs. Here you go: https://youtube.com/shorts/jFph1d2WR3s https://youtube.com/shorts/jFph1d2WR3s Btw: > or something that needs to be earthquake resilient and affordable https://earthquake.alaska.edu/earthquakes https://earthquake.alaska.edu/earthquakes

dpmartinez 14d ago

Sad. Is there a free alternative to this ideally community owned and open source?

convolvatron 14d ago
the sherline designs aren't particularly notable, and they're pretty easy to replicate if you have working machine tools that are larger. any machinist could make a sherline mill or lathe, but without that floorspace and capex and skill, one really can't. I spent overly long trying to learn on sherline tools and once I gave up and bought a Bridgeport and an old Logan, I realized that I was just banging my head against the limitations of the tools. the value they had was that they were cheaper than the smaller version of the standard toolroom machines, and they were a way to bootstrap yourself without having the heavy power and the floorspace. so pretty much the storefront, not the IP. I still have their 4" rotary, and its actually not bad. the mill had a huge amount of flex in the column that made it pretty unusable for me unless you took really really tiny passes. I had an old Unimat for a couple years, and while that was even _more_ dodgy than the sherline the fact that it was all steel and a combined mill/lathe made it a lot more interesting. would rather see some community standards for tooling on a platform like that. maybe a 50% larger so setup isn't so fiddly.
- abakker 14d ago
  100% They were fine for what they were, but once you use a big tool you just can’t go back. I think there is plenty of room for innovation in hobby machines, but IME, hobbiest value work envelope maybe even more than pros.
  - WillAdams 13d ago
    Given that the Gingery books folks are shutting down as well: https://gingerybookstore.com/ https://gingerybookstore.com/ one wonders what the other alternatives are. I mentioned Taig elsethread, and the Unimat is still available at https://thecooltool.com/en/ https://thecooltool.com/en/ --- for opensource there are a couple of options: - https://www.lathes.co.uk/multimachine/ https://www.lathes.co.uk/multimachine/ - https://www.printables.com/model/89657-3d-printed-wood-lathe-v2 https://www.printables.com/model/89657-3d-printed-wood-lathe... and I've been debating on getting a small Grizzly G0745: https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-4-x-6-variable-speed-benchtop-metal-lathe/g0745 https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-4-x-6-variable-spee... Are there other notable approaches/options?

giantg2 14d ago

I want a small lathe and mill. The prices are just too high to justify with my limited use. Instead, I use a 3D printer and I'm making a CNC router.

SoftTalker 14d ago
You may have already ruled it out, but many communities have maker spaces where expensive equipment that might normally be out of reach is available on a shared basis. Some universities may also have ways to use their maker spaces on weekends or when classes are not in session.
- giantg2 13d ago
  I thought of that and may still go that route if I really need a precision metal part. But it's a drive and I can do most stuff with other tools. I could even 3D print a part, mold it, then cast it in metal if I need to.
- bluGill 13d ago
  My local maker space exists, but it turns a 30 minute go if I have time to something I need to plan for. Most days by the time I'm done with work, supper... there isn't enough time before bed to go to the tools I have. If I had to go to the makerspace it would be even less time because just to touch the tools and go home I've already used nearly an hour. When I work on my own I can leave a part in the lathe for next time, or skip cleanup (for a small mess this is okay), that isn't allowed in the maker space (for good reason).
throwaway2037 13d ago
For this project, do you have a YouTube channel or a blog? It would hit like catnip around here.

firesteelrain 14d ago

How much is because of Chinese clones/stealing of IP thus making manufacturing in the US cost prohibitive?

SoftTalker 14d ago
Most of it.
applfanboysbgon 14d ago
Sad to see racist yellow scare bogeyman stuff going on at every little thing. You really think Sherline had some amazing hobby lathe IP that was just so far intellectually beyond what an educational powerhouse of a country with 1.6 billion people could ever come up with?
- firesteelrain 14d ago
  Yes, I agree that China can copy Sherline’s IP and it’s a form of theft. An estimated 70-80% of the parts can probably be made in China. If you would like a breakdown I can provide it. Sherline, for example, specifies spindle nose runout of 0.0005 inch or less and spindle end play around 0.0002 inch or less, using two 20-mm ball bearings with adjustable preload. That’s only about 13 µm runout. A Chinese factory can absolutely manufacture that. Manufacturers such as SIEG took conventional lathe architecture and mass-produced it. There is nothing original going on there lots of copying
  - lenkite 14d ago
    But isn't this completely fine ? The US became an industrial powerhouse by doing the same. Even barred foreign inventors from obtaining parents in the US. The U.S. Patent Act of 1793 was explicitly structured to favor domestic industrial growth at the expense of foreign inventors. Provided total legal immunity within the U.S. for commercializing pirated ideas. Only when the US became #1, did international protection of its patents became a priority. China merely followed the American approach towards industrial success.

probably_wrong 14d ago

I'd like to throw an idea to those who know better than I do. Ever since I started living on my own I've lived in apartments, none of which had a backyard (one of them had a parking lot). None of my friends owns a house either. I'm the perfect customer for this and I'd love to do my own projects (two of which require a lathe!) but I simply don't have the space. Is this just me? Or is the disappearance of the hobby garage a real phenomenon? A 3D printer is fairly limited in what it allows, but it also doesn't throw sawdust in the center of my living room.

jakintosh 14d ago
This is generally what a makerspace is for. I don’t know what the (inter)national landscape is like for them, but I have a small 8’x8’ studio space at the makerspace in my city, which also has a full wood shop, metal shop, and tons of rapid prototyping tools (3d printers, vinyl cutter, etc). I live in a 1BR apartment downtown and the makerspace is in an industrial district that is a 5-minute bike ride away, and it’s basically my “garage”, just shared with 30 other studios and probably 200 non-studio members who come and go.
- CharlieDigital 14d ago
  The US is kind of "collapsing" in third spaces both public and private, but especially public due to funding cuts.
  - bluGill 13d ago
    That is the meme, but there are plenty of third spaces. They have changed, and will likely continue to change, but people who live in the US find them.
- myself248 13d ago
  This is precisely what makerspaces are for. There are many operating models. Some are attached to another organization (a library, a university), some are commercial (RIP Techshop), some are completely DIY and member-run. Any given city might have a handful of different ones, but you'll have to dig around and visit a few to see what you vibe with. Caveat, it's very easy to get focused on the ooh-shiny tools, and forget to pay attention to the community energy and expectations. Some of the more professional spaces, you just pay for what you want, and staff takes care of the rest. At the other end of the scale, the fully-DIY places are very much a case of "you get out of it what you put into it", and may offer cheaper memberships but expect a lot more involvement. Visit as many as you can.

obscurette 14d ago

My wife is in manufacturing and although not in US, working for a company having production in US, EU, Asia etc. Her 1-minute comments why it's increasingly difficult to produce something in EU and US. Bureaucracy - the levels of it are insane especially in EU, but US is not far behind. The loss of local partners and environment - every little thing you can do locally makes production easier and cheaper. Failure to attract young people – although production is cool, it's not Youtube influencer level cool and industry relies increasingly on older generations. Education - the quality of it is sinking almost all over the world. Insecurity - partly just part of times, but mostly coming from regulation, taxes etc.

ponector 14d ago
>> it's not Youtube influencer level cool and industry relies increasingly on older generations Usually it means the pay is crap, the schedule is bad and nobody is willing to invest into training. Why should young people select such career?
- in_absentia 13d ago
  Strongly disagree on that last part. Unlike software engineering, where training is nearly non-existent and we expect everyone to show to their first job interview knowing about the big-O complexity of sorting algorithms, traditional manufacturing has a robust tradition of apprenticeship and training on the job. It also has much better and more predictable hours than, say, the ever-popular gaming industry. You're right that low pay is an issue, but pay is crap in part because of outsourcing. Any machine shop in the US is competing with China to an extent that, oddly, we don't actually see in the software space. The West is mostly using Western-made software, and outside of that, only India is invited to the club (and even that only as a subcontractor). But a lot of it is also just culture / parenting. Every parent wants their kid to become a software engineer, a lawyer, or a doctor. There's basically zero pride in being a machinist.
  - coryrc 13d ago
    There'd be pride if it paid similarly to a doctor.

johnohara 14d ago

Tip of the hat to Australian Harold Clisby. https://www.lathes.co.uk/clisby/index.html https://www.lathes.co.uk/clisby/index.html Well done sir.

WillAdams 13d ago
Is there a good book (or web page) documenting the history of such small lathes/machines and their designers? There seems to be a lot of misinformation (folks claiming Gingery was melting down working machines to make his, when they were iron or steel and he was casting aluminum)....

kqr2 14d ago

What is the best replacement for hobbyists?

tejtm 14d ago
complacent consumers. Oh wait you meant something else, Myself I am biased towards antique manual machines, if you are not in a hurry you can push them beyond what we might expect.
WillAdams 13d ago
Taig maybe? https://taigtools.com/ https://taigtools.com/ (ob. discl., I work for a hobbyist CNC company, but we don't offer a 4th axis or lathe)
annoyingnoob 13d ago
I purchased a Taig earlier this year. It is for small stuff and/or softer materials.

jszymborski 14d ago

All these tariffs haven't saved US manufacturing? Colour me shocked ? /s

kqr2 14d ago

Mods: can we just link to the actual announcement instead of a blog: https://www.sherline.com/an-important-message-to-our-sherline-customers/ https://www.sherline.com/an-important-message-to-our-sherlin...

ltbarcly3 14d ago

> When we took over the company in 2017… It was bought out by employees in 2017 and it seems like they weren't able to manage it successfully. The two that acquired it were well over 70 when they did so, so I guess this isn't very surprising. From the article it sounds like they spent a lot of money trying to 'modernize' the business, which sounds a lot like they brought in management that was more interested in 'doing management. than making money.

jordanb 14d ago
> they brought in management that was more interested in 'doing management. than making money. Boy it'd be tragic if these guys felt like they were over their heads, decided to "hire some experts" and ended up with MBAs.

abakker 14d ago

There’s some other threads in this discussion bemoaning the lack of diy machine builders…and, I am really unclear how this Sherline issue is related? To me, this is a question of value for money. Sherline products were always interesting, but also nowhere near competitive as machines. With controllers like masso and acorn available, converting a mill like a grizzly, precision Mathews or even a Bridgeport are just way more value for money. The other end of the spectrum is tools like the Langmuir bed mill/router or the avid benchtop routers with available 4 pole spindles. There’s a lot of options, closed loop steppers are sub $100, servos from DMM or teknic are readily available and awesome. Sherline has a product set that just felt like a compromise on everything. In the last decade, I’ve built 3 routers, rebuilt a bed mill, converted a Bridgeport, and am currently building an automated beam saw. All the options in the market are drastically better than they were 15 years ago. It’s sad to see a fixture of the community going out of business, but it also a reflection that the business is different now. Given the many different kits and options available, it just doesn’t make sense to buy small work envelope machines for most people.

Aurornis 14d ago
Sherline was good for businesses and labs that needed a light mill for rare use. Hobby users weren’t a good market because they’re always searching for used deals and conversions. I haven’t shopped the Sherline catalog in a long time but this appears to be a case of a company failing to keep up with changing market conditions. Depending on how old the owners were, that may have been not too unreasonable. Some of these companies get founded by people who put a lot of work into establishing the small business, make their wealth, and then make the choice to let the business continue operating as a lifestyle business with low inputs until the income drops too low to pay the expenses. Not every company is designed to be a multi generational juggernaut.

morio 14d ago

I own a lathe and mill from them, both converted to CNC. Sadly their products have changed little in 30+ years. Their precision parts have a use in some applications but it's vastly overshadowed by the cheap parts available from Asia (including India now). 3D printers, laser cutters and benchtop CNC routers have the taken over the lion share of what hobbyists (and some professionals) used to do with these machines. Mine are just collecting dust while my 3D printers crank out parts every day.

dyauspitr 14d ago
What parts are from India? I do a lot of CNC work and parts from India are acceptable but most importantly dirt cheap.

trentor 14d ago

Sad but I have to say they just stood still for 20 years and tried catching up in the last 5 that never works out.

dyauspitr 14d ago

I considered their manual mill when I first wanted to get into CNC but then realized that a manual mill makes no sense for anything really anymore. Anything short of a CNC is a waste of time.

WillAdams 13d ago
There's a lot to be said for a manual approach for certain tasks. For an extreme example of partisanship on this, see the Youtube channel "Inheritance Machining"
- kakwa_ 13d ago
  I would also recommend "Artisan Makes" and "Blondiehacks" if you want something less stylized & scripted. Plus their machinery is a bit more realistic for a hobbyist.
  - WillAdams 13d ago
    Blondihacks is a favourite along w/ Clickspring and Pask Makes. Haven't found occasion to watch Artisan Makes yet, but it is queued up for the future.
gaze 13d ago
I have a manual mill and CNC and use them in roughly equal proportion. They make plenty of sense -- especially if it's a hobby and you don't want to use another computerized thing. Manual machining is very zen.

conorbergin 13d ago

That's a shame, I was considering getting one after seeing Chris of Clickspring recommend them. Hobby machinists are used to using machines built by defunct manufacturers, so I'm sure plenty will stay in circulation.

mhb 13d ago
Sherline still has new ones.

a96 13d ago

That's a shame. Though they might get bought out by someone who will keep the products in production? Sherline was one of the rare sane size manual machines that weren't just rebranded Sieg. Actually even the insane ones have largely disappeared. Only options are antiques and Taig. And in many places in the world, all three of those options are completely unobtainable. Only the Sieg machines remain. Personally, I don't care because I managed to find an antique machine or two that should last a lifetime and Sherline isn't really something I could buy here, but I know there's people who are dreaming of having a lathe and possibly a mill that doesn't take a separate building with reinforced floor to own and no options left. (Ok, Proxxon also exists.)

tlb 13d ago

I learned to machine on their machines, before graduating to full-sized units. They were great for learning, because they had all the essential features of professional manual machines, but couldn't cause as much damage when something went wrong. And they were delightfully made and easy to take apart and modify. Sad.