3 ms·

That is peanuts for a nation-state actor.

stackghost 8d ago
Sure, but if you’re defending against a nation state actor hopefully you aren’t expecting a raspberry pi to keep you secure.
- ssl-3 8d ago
  The RP2350 is an inexpensive microcontroller IC with reasonable performance and some very useful (and somewhat unusual) features in its PIO blocks. Why wouldn't a person build that into the heart of something important?
  - sephamorr 8d ago
    "Important" and "tamper proof against a determined adversary" are very different goals.
    - jacquesm 8d ago
      Tamper proof against a determined adversary starts at 'call us' not at '$10'.
  - stackghost 8d ago
    >Why wouldn't a person build that into the heart of something important? Because it's inexpensive and not designed to be tamper-resistant. If preventing this type of thing is your goal there are chips out there designed to break irrepairably if tampered with.
    - rcxdude 8d ago
      Rp2350s are advertised as having quite a few anti-tamper functions. They had a bounty when it launched to find similar vulnerabilities and they worked to patch the ones that were found. This is a lot more credible than a lot of advertised anti-tamper features.
      - crote 7d ago
        Not really. The RP2350 just adds some bog-standard security features the ESP32 family and plenty of others have had for ages, that's all. The goal of the bounty is to demonstrate that they aren't just a company making toys for hobbyists, and that they can be relied upon by the industry for basic IoT-level products. They are saying "it won't be completely trivial to extract your proprietary firmware", not "use this chip for your next HSM".
  - alnwlsn 8d ago
    Depending on what sort of important you're talking, those ICs don't have the usual "something important" environmental specs, like an extended temperature range, or certification for automotive use or safety critical applications, for one thing.
- palmotea 8d ago
  > Sure, but if you’re defending against a nation state actor hopefully you aren’t expecting a raspberry pi to keep you secure. Is there anything about these techniques that are raspberry pi specific? It seems like they're using lasers to identify and flip particular bits in registers.
  - bob1029 8d ago
    There are HSMs that are effectively immune to this attack by way of their construction and packaging. You need an optical path to the secure device. The only way to get at this is to tamper with the tamperproof part of the system. Some very high end HSMs must be actively powered at all times which makes disturbances in their local environments detectable at all times as well. Getting lucky and drilling through a part of the enclosure that isn't directly protected won't help you if a barometric pressure sensor is tripped as a consequence of breaking the hermetic seal.
    - palmotea 8d ago
      > Getting lucky and drilling through a part of the enclosure that isn't directly protected won't help you if a barometric pressure sensor is tripped as a consequence of breaking the hermetic seal. That's interesting. I suppose if that technology is in use, the attack would have to occur in a pressure-controlled chamber, so breaking the seal wouldn't cause a change in pressure.
      - rcxdude 8d ago
        And you'd need to have a way to know what the pressure inside is beforehand.
        overfeed 8d ago
        You can find the pressure through destructive trial-and-error if money is no object - which it isn't for governments when the target hardware is juicy.
crote 7d ago
Most attackers aren't nation states, and your security shouldn't rely on obscurity anyways. Having to attack each individual device and having to get specialized equipment to do a highly-skilled attack breaks the vast majority of attack scenarios. This isn't Hollywood. What actually matters to companies is that some 15-year-old with a Flipper Zero can't trivially break your printer ink DRM scheme, and that your debit card can't be cloned without leaving plenty of evidence. Worried about nation-state attacks? Then don't rely solely on sub-$1 hobbyist-level chips for your security!

Sure, but if you’re defending against a nation state actor hopefully you aren’t expecting a raspberry pi to keep you secure.

ssl-3 8d ago
The RP2350 is an inexpensive microcontroller IC with reasonable performance and some very useful (and somewhat unusual) features in its PIO blocks. Why wouldn't a person build that into the heart of something important?
- sephamorr 8d ago
  "Important" and "tamper proof against a determined adversary" are very different goals.
  - jacquesm 8d ago
    Tamper proof against a determined adversary starts at 'call us' not at '$10'.
- stackghost 8d ago
  >Why wouldn't a person build that into the heart of something important? Because it's inexpensive and not designed to be tamper-resistant. If preventing this type of thing is your goal there are chips out there designed to break irrepairably if tampered with.
  - rcxdude 8d ago
    Rp2350s are advertised as having quite a few anti-tamper functions. They had a bounty when it launched to find similar vulnerabilities and they worked to patch the ones that were found. This is a lot more credible than a lot of advertised anti-tamper features.
    - crote 7d ago
      Not really. The RP2350 just adds some bog-standard security features the ESP32 family and plenty of others have had for ages, that's all. The goal of the bounty is to demonstrate that they aren't just a company making toys for hobbyists, and that they can be relied upon by the industry for basic IoT-level products. They are saying "it won't be completely trivial to extract your proprietary firmware", not "use this chip for your next HSM".
- alnwlsn 8d ago
  Depending on what sort of important you're talking, those ICs don't have the usual "something important" environmental specs, like an extended temperature range, or certification for automotive use or safety critical applications, for one thing.
palmotea 8d ago
> Sure, but if you’re defending against a nation state actor hopefully you aren’t expecting a raspberry pi to keep you secure. Is there anything about these techniques that are raspberry pi specific? It seems like they're using lasers to identify and flip particular bits in registers.
- bob1029 8d ago
  There are HSMs that are effectively immune to this attack by way of their construction and packaging. You need an optical path to the secure device. The only way to get at this is to tamper with the tamperproof part of the system. Some very high end HSMs must be actively powered at all times which makes disturbances in their local environments detectable at all times as well. Getting lucky and drilling through a part of the enclosure that isn't directly protected won't help you if a barometric pressure sensor is tripped as a consequence of breaking the hermetic seal.
  - palmotea 8d ago
    > Getting lucky and drilling through a part of the enclosure that isn't directly protected won't help you if a barometric pressure sensor is tripped as a consequence of breaking the hermetic seal. That's interesting. I suppose if that technology is in use, the attack would have to occur in a pressure-controlled chamber, so breaking the seal wouldn't cause a change in pressure.
    - rcxdude 8d ago
      And you'd need to have a way to know what the pressure inside is beforehand.
      - overfeed 8d ago
        You can find the pressure through destructive trial-and-error if money is no object - which it isn't for governments when the target hardware is juicy.

crote 7d ago

Most attackers aren't nation states, and your security shouldn't rely on obscurity anyways. Having to attack each individual device and having to get specialized equipment to do a highly-skilled attack breaks the vast majority of attack scenarios. This isn't Hollywood. What actually matters to companies is that some 15-year-old with a Flipper Zero can't trivially break your printer ink DRM scheme, and that your debit card can't be cloned without leaving plenty of evidence. Worried about nation-state attacks? Then don't rely solely on sub-$1 hobbyist-level chips for your security!