5 ms·

A place where traffic slows down, without actually stopping, and becomes congested with no time/space gaps between vehicles, is worse for pedestrians.

bulder 16d ago
The traffic has to yield to pedestrians when entering and exiting a roundabout, period.
- pasc1878 16d ago
  Not in UK. However there are often pedestrian crossings across the roads or the volume is low enough pedestrians can easily cross. A local roundabout got busy enough we had crossing added less than 10 years ago and the biggest road there was a minor B road. I am a pedestrian due to sight issues and have found very few places where it is difficult to cross when needed.
  - sagarm 16d ago
    The "when needed" suggests that there are plenty of difficulty to cross intersections, you're just able to avoid them. Is that accurate?
    - pasc1878 16d ago
      No it just means I can't remeber any at the moment – but I am, dure some can be found.
- paulnpace 16d ago
  This is true if you can alter the properties of the physically existent universe, else it is not true, and, indeed, drivers do not even slow down largely because they feel frustrated when traveling along a road with a 45 MPH speed limit at an average speed of 20 MPH.
tokai 16d ago
No it isn't unless all driver all break the law and don't stop for waiting pedestrians.
- deleted 16d ago
  [deleted]
- kazinator 16d ago
  That's a thing that happens.
  - tremon 16d ago
    But then, how come you blame this on the existence of roundabouts and not on the lawlessness of drivers?
    - agwa 16d ago
      Because driver compliance with red traffic lights is far, far higher than compliance with pedestrian right-of-way rules.
      - paulnpace 16d ago
        And the reason is obvious: when the driver runs the law of the red light, they run into a law of physics (cross traffic).
embedding-shape 16d ago
> becomes congested with no time/space gaps between vehicles, is worse for pedestrians Why? This feels like it's assuming pedestrians share the street with vehicles, but besides the US and some other places, don't most "modern" countries have separate pavements/streets for pedestrians? Besides in the country-side, vehicles and pedestrians don't generally share the road in populated areas here in Spain. For crossing roads outside cities, building a pedestrian tunnel below or a bridge above seems to preferred here, except in the cases where it isn't possible, and in cities obviously.
- ubercore 16d ago
  In my city in Norway, at least, there is never a traffic pattern where it's not either: * a small roundabout with really clear pedestrian right of way marked * a pedestrian path that takes you over or under the road instead of crossing it It's great!
- cucumber3732842 16d ago
  [flagged]
  - embedding-shape 16d ago
    Right, you're talking about "traffic participant", are you including pedestrians or not? Because as I said, in many places, "vehicles" and "pedestrians" are well-separated and don't impact/affect each other, so not sure what cluster-fuck could be created there. Seems less of a cluster-fuck than relying on cross-walks and stop-lights?
    - cucumber3732842 16d ago
      [flagged]
      - embedding-shape 16d ago
        [flagged]
throw0101c 16d ago
> […] is worse for pedestrians. Some data seems to conflict with this: > A 1993 study in the Netherlands examined collision experience at 181 intersections converted to roundabouts. Pedestrian collisions (all injury severities) dropped 73% and pedestrian casualties dropped 89%. > Evaluations in Sweden concluded that single-lane roundabouts are very safe for pedestrians, at about a 78% reduction in injuries, and that multi-lane roundabouts are about as safe as other intersections. > A 2002 study of collision experience at the roundabouts in Park City, Vail, West Vail and Avon, Colorado, showed 2 pedestrian crashes prior to the roundabouts operating with over 164 million vehicle movements, compared to 1 pedestrian crash with roundabouts experiencing over 282 million vehicle movements. * https://www.tac-atc.ca/wp-content/uploads/weber.pdf https://www.tac-atc.ca/wp-content/uploads/weber.pdf > With the installation of a roundabout, this study finds that the before-after analysis results in a 40% decrease in all severity injury crashes for all roadway users, a 70% decrease in fatal and serious injury crashes for bikes and pedestrians, and a 15% decrease in total pedestrian bike and pedestrian crashes. * https://mdl.mndot.gov/items/202336 https://mdl.mndot.gov/items/202336
- kazinator 16d ago
  OK, so "worse for pedestrians" boils down to a statistic about body hits. If you are not struck, you are not having a worse pedestrian experience. My bad!

bulder 16d ago

The traffic has to yield to pedestrians when entering and exiting a roundabout, period.

pasc1878 16d ago
Not in UK. However there are often pedestrian crossings across the roads or the volume is low enough pedestrians can easily cross. A local roundabout got busy enough we had crossing added less than 10 years ago and the biggest road there was a minor B road. I am a pedestrian due to sight issues and have found very few places where it is difficult to cross when needed.
- sagarm 16d ago
  The "when needed" suggests that there are plenty of difficulty to cross intersections, you're just able to avoid them. Is that accurate?
  - pasc1878 16d ago
    No it just means I can't remeber any at the moment – but I am, dure some can be found.
paulnpace 16d ago
This is true if you can alter the properties of the physically existent universe, else it is not true, and, indeed, drivers do not even slow down largely because they feel frustrated when traveling along a road with a 45 MPH speed limit at an average speed of 20 MPH.

tokai 16d ago

No it isn't unless all driver all break the law and don't stop for waiting pedestrians.

deleted 16d ago
[deleted]
kazinator 16d ago
That's a thing that happens.
- tremon 16d ago
  But then, how come you blame this on the existence of roundabouts and not on the lawlessness of drivers?
  - agwa 16d ago
    Because driver compliance with red traffic lights is far, far higher than compliance with pedestrian right-of-way rules.
    - paulnpace 16d ago
      And the reason is obvious: when the driver runs the law of the red light, they run into a law of physics (cross traffic).

embedding-shape 16d ago

> becomes congested with no time/space gaps between vehicles, is worse for pedestrians Why? This feels like it's assuming pedestrians share the street with vehicles, but besides the US and some other places, don't most "modern" countries have separate pavements/streets for pedestrians? Besides in the country-side, vehicles and pedestrians don't generally share the road in populated areas here in Spain. For crossing roads outside cities, building a pedestrian tunnel below or a bridge above seems to preferred here, except in the cases where it isn't possible, and in cities obviously.

ubercore 16d ago
In my city in Norway, at least, there is never a traffic pattern where it's not either: * a small roundabout with really clear pedestrian right of way marked * a pedestrian path that takes you over or under the road instead of crossing it It's great!
cucumber3732842 16d ago
[flagged]
- embedding-shape 16d ago
  Right, you're talking about "traffic participant", are you including pedestrians or not? Because as I said, in many places, "vehicles" and "pedestrians" are well-separated and don't impact/affect each other, so not sure what cluster-fuck could be created there. Seems less of a cluster-fuck than relying on cross-walks and stop-lights?
  - cucumber3732842 16d ago
    [flagged]
    - embedding-shape 16d ago
      [flagged]

throw0101c 16d ago

> […] is worse for pedestrians. Some data seems to conflict with this: > A 1993 study in the Netherlands examined collision experience at 181 intersections converted to roundabouts. Pedestrian collisions (all injury severities) dropped 73% and pedestrian casualties dropped 89%. > Evaluations in Sweden concluded that single-lane roundabouts are very safe for pedestrians, at about a 78% reduction in injuries, and that multi-lane roundabouts are about as safe as other intersections. > A 2002 study of collision experience at the roundabouts in Park City, Vail, West Vail and Avon, Colorado, showed 2 pedestrian crashes prior to the roundabouts operating with over 164 million vehicle movements, compared to 1 pedestrian crash with roundabouts experiencing over 282 million vehicle movements. * https://www.tac-atc.ca/wp-content/uploads/weber.pdf https://www.tac-atc.ca/wp-content/uploads/weber.pdf > With the installation of a roundabout, this study finds that the before-after analysis results in a 40% decrease in all severity injury crashes for all roadway users, a 70% decrease in fatal and serious injury crashes for bikes and pedestrians, and a 15% decrease in total pedestrian bike and pedestrian crashes. * https://mdl.mndot.gov/items/202336 https://mdl.mndot.gov/items/202336

kazinator 16d ago
OK, so "worse for pedestrians" boils down to a statistic about body hits. If you are not struck, you are not having a worse pedestrian experience. My bad!