4 ms·

> the bulk of traffic all needs to slow down, downshift, turn a bit in one direction and then turn a bit in the other direction for the minority of traffic that

by pkamb 11d ago

> the bulk of traffic all needs to slow down, downshift, turn a bit in one direction and then turn a bit in the other direction for the minority of traffic that's bleeding on or off the main artery. Slowing/calming traffic like this is a good thing. Make it impossible to speed. Enforce the existing 35mph speed limit via concrete rather than allowing cars to rip through a yellow light at 70mph. You're also ignoring this aspect when you call roundabouts "(mostly) worse for cyclists and pedestrians".

kazinator 11d ago
A place where traffic slows down, without actually stopping, and becomes congested with no time/space gaps between vehicles, is worse for pedestrians.
- bulder 11d ago
  The traffic has to yield to pedestrians when entering and exiting a roundabout, period.
  - pasc1878 10d ago
    Not in UK. However there are often pedestrian crossings across the roads or the volume is low enough pedestrians can easily cross. A local roundabout got busy enough we had crossing added less than 10 years ago and the biggest road there was a minor B road. I am a pedestrian due to sight issues and have found very few places where it is difficult to cross when needed.
    - sagarm 10d ago
      The "when needed" suggests that there are plenty of difficulty to cross intersections, you're just able to avoid them. Is that accurate?
      - pasc1878 10d ago
        No it just means I can't remeber any at the moment – but I am, dure some can be found.
  - paulnpace 10d ago
    This is true if you can alter the properties of the physically existent universe, else it is not true, and, indeed, drivers do not even slow down largely because they feel frustrated when traveling along a road with a 45 MPH speed limit at an average speed of 20 MPH.
- tokai 11d ago
  No it isn't unless all driver all break the law and don't stop for waiting pedestrians.
  - deleted 11d ago
    [deleted]
  - kazinator 11d ago
    That's a thing that happens.
    - tremon 10d ago
      But then, how come you blame this on the existence of roundabouts and not on the lawlessness of drivers?
      - agwa 10d ago
        Because driver compliance with red traffic lights is far, far higher than compliance with pedestrian right-of-way rules.
        paulnpace 10d ago
        And the reason is obvious: when the driver runs the law of the red light, they run into a law of physics (cross traffic).
- embedding-shape 10d ago
  > becomes congested with no time/space gaps between vehicles, is worse for pedestrians Why? This feels like it's assuming pedestrians share the street with vehicles, but besides the US and some other places, don't most "modern" countries have separate pavements/streets for pedestrians? Besides in the country-side, vehicles and pedestrians don't generally share the road in populated areas here in Spain. For crossing roads outside cities, building a pedestrian tunnel below or a bridge above seems to preferred here, except in the cases where it isn't possible, and in cities obviously.
  - ubercore 10d ago
    In my city in Norway, at least, there is never a traffic pattern where it's not either: * a small roundabout with really clear pedestrian right of way marked * a pedestrian path that takes you over or under the road instead of crossing it It's great!
  - cucumber3732842 10d ago
    [flagged]
    - embedding-shape 10d ago
      Right, you're talking about "traffic participant", are you including pedestrians or not? Because as I said, in many places, "vehicles" and "pedestrians" are well-separated and don't impact/affect each other, so not sure what cluster-fuck could be created there. Seems less of a cluster-fuck than relying on cross-walks and stop-lights?
      - cucumber3732842 10d ago
        [flagged]
        embedding-shape 10d ago
        [flagged]
- throw0101c 10d ago
  > […] is worse for pedestrians. Some data seems to conflict with this: > A 1993 study in the Netherlands examined collision experience at 181 intersections converted to roundabouts. Pedestrian collisions (all injury severities) dropped 73% and pedestrian casualties dropped 89%. > Evaluations in Sweden concluded that single-lane roundabouts are very safe for pedestrians, at about a 78% reduction in injuries, and that multi-lane roundabouts are about as safe as other intersections. > A 2002 study of collision experience at the roundabouts in Park City, Vail, West Vail and Avon, Colorado, showed 2 pedestrian crashes prior to the roundabouts operating with over 164 million vehicle movements, compared to 1 pedestrian crash with roundabouts experiencing over 282 million vehicle movements. * https://www.tac-atc.ca/wp-content/uploads/weber.pdf https://www.tac-atc.ca/wp-content/uploads/weber.pdf > With the installation of a roundabout, this study finds that the before-after analysis results in a 40% decrease in all severity injury crashes for all roadway users, a 70% decrease in fatal and serious injury crashes for bikes and pedestrians, and a 15% decrease in total pedestrian bike and pedestrian crashes. * https://mdl.mndot.gov/items/202336 https://mdl.mndot.gov/items/202336
  - kazinator 10d ago
    OK, so "worse for pedestrians" boils down to a statistic about body hits. If you are not struck, you are not having a worse pedestrian experience. My bad!
bigstrat2003 10d ago
It can be a good thing. But I've seen many roundabouts in the US (specifically in the state of Wisconsin) where someone decided to put a roundabout on a major rural highway that was crossed by a side road. In that case there is no sense in having the 60mph traffic stop just for an occasional car crossing or turning. The side road should have a stop sign while the main road flows unimpeded.
- pkamb 10d ago
  The new roundabout completely prevents fatality t-bone crashes into people turning left from those stop signs, which has likely happened multiple times at that very intersection thus prompting the road to be redesigned.

by pkamb 11d ago

kazinator 11d ago

A place where traffic slows down, without actually stopping, and becomes congested with no time/space gaps between vehicles, is worse for pedestrians.

bulder 11d ago
The traffic has to yield to pedestrians when entering and exiting a roundabout, period.
- pasc1878 10d ago
  Not in UK. However there are often pedestrian crossings across the roads or the volume is low enough pedestrians can easily cross. A local roundabout got busy enough we had crossing added less than 10 years ago and the biggest road there was a minor B road. I am a pedestrian due to sight issues and have found very few places where it is difficult to cross when needed.
  - sagarm 10d ago
    The "when needed" suggests that there are plenty of difficulty to cross intersections, you're just able to avoid them. Is that accurate?
    - pasc1878 10d ago
      No it just means I can't remeber any at the moment – but I am, dure some can be found.
- paulnpace 10d ago
  This is true if you can alter the properties of the physically existent universe, else it is not true, and, indeed, drivers do not even slow down largely because they feel frustrated when traveling along a road with a 45 MPH speed limit at an average speed of 20 MPH.
tokai 11d ago
No it isn't unless all driver all break the law and don't stop for waiting pedestrians.
- deleted 11d ago
  [deleted]
- kazinator 11d ago
  That's a thing that happens.
  - tremon 10d ago
    But then, how come you blame this on the existence of roundabouts and not on the lawlessness of drivers?
    - agwa 10d ago
      Because driver compliance with red traffic lights is far, far higher than compliance with pedestrian right-of-way rules.
      - paulnpace 10d ago
        And the reason is obvious: when the driver runs the law of the red light, they run into a law of physics (cross traffic).
embedding-shape 10d ago
> becomes congested with no time/space gaps between vehicles, is worse for pedestrians Why? This feels like it's assuming pedestrians share the street with vehicles, but besides the US and some other places, don't most "modern" countries have separate pavements/streets for pedestrians? Besides in the country-side, vehicles and pedestrians don't generally share the road in populated areas here in Spain. For crossing roads outside cities, building a pedestrian tunnel below or a bridge above seems to preferred here, except in the cases where it isn't possible, and in cities obviously.
- ubercore 10d ago
  In my city in Norway, at least, there is never a traffic pattern where it's not either: * a small roundabout with really clear pedestrian right of way marked * a pedestrian path that takes you over or under the road instead of crossing it It's great!
- cucumber3732842 10d ago
  [flagged]
  - embedding-shape 10d ago
    Right, you're talking about "traffic participant", are you including pedestrians or not? Because as I said, in many places, "vehicles" and "pedestrians" are well-separated and don't impact/affect each other, so not sure what cluster-fuck could be created there. Seems less of a cluster-fuck than relying on cross-walks and stop-lights?
    - cucumber3732842 10d ago
      [flagged]
      - embedding-shape 10d ago
        [flagged]
throw0101c 10d ago
> […] is worse for pedestrians. Some data seems to conflict with this: > A 1993 study in the Netherlands examined collision experience at 181 intersections converted to roundabouts. Pedestrian collisions (all injury severities) dropped 73% and pedestrian casualties dropped 89%. > Evaluations in Sweden concluded that single-lane roundabouts are very safe for pedestrians, at about a 78% reduction in injuries, and that multi-lane roundabouts are about as safe as other intersections. > A 2002 study of collision experience at the roundabouts in Park City, Vail, West Vail and Avon, Colorado, showed 2 pedestrian crashes prior to the roundabouts operating with over 164 million vehicle movements, compared to 1 pedestrian crash with roundabouts experiencing over 282 million vehicle movements. * https://www.tac-atc.ca/wp-content/uploads/weber.pdf https://www.tac-atc.ca/wp-content/uploads/weber.pdf > With the installation of a roundabout, this study finds that the before-after analysis results in a 40% decrease in all severity injury crashes for all roadway users, a 70% decrease in fatal and serious injury crashes for bikes and pedestrians, and a 15% decrease in total pedestrian bike and pedestrian crashes. * https://mdl.mndot.gov/items/202336 https://mdl.mndot.gov/items/202336
- kazinator 10d ago
  OK, so "worse for pedestrians" boils down to a statistic about body hits. If you are not struck, you are not having a worse pedestrian experience. My bad!

bigstrat2003 10d ago

It can be a good thing. But I've seen many roundabouts in the US (specifically in the state of Wisconsin) where someone decided to put a roundabout on a major rural highway that was crossed by a side road. In that case there is no sense in having the 60mph traffic stop just for an occasional car crossing or turning. The side road should have a stop sign while the main road flows unimpeded.

pkamb 10d ago
The new roundabout completely prevents fatality t-bone crashes into people turning left from those stop signs, which has likely happened multiple times at that very intersection thus prompting the road to be redesigned.