4 ms·

Wouldn't using OpenAI break the cleanroom?

compiler-guy 20d ago
That is the debate. And it is hotly contested. The legal framework around all this is way too immature to make a definitive statement one way or the other. Anyone who says otherwise is speculating. The only way to clarity will be legislation or court cases, because it really could go either way.
- tiahura 19d ago
  Not hotly contested by impartial legal types. There is a -6543.21% chance the Roberts’ Court does anything to hold ai back.
josephg 20d ago
Why would it? Unless you think OpenAI is training on Apple’s proprietary code?
- Orphis 19d ago
  They could claim that some employee one day used their model to ask a question about internal stuff and they trained on that. It doesn't have to necessarily have to make sense to make a claim, but it doesn't necessarily bear any weight.
mrheosuper 20d ago
Did Apple share their code with OpenAI ?
- knollimar 19d ago
  Aren't they literally being sued for taking it from Apple?
cromka 19d ago
Yeah I see developers constantly saying they RE stuff using LLM in a clean room way and it’s definitely an opinion, not a fact. Just look at the most recent post here: https://x.com/ewninjaofficial https://x.com/ewninjaofficial
Orphis 19d ago
If using the OpenAI models to develop this taints you with Apple insider knowledge, then so is developing any macOS, iOS, Android or Windows apps around that are using any LLM. You can't claim that some work is necessarily tainted by existing, you also have to prove which knowledge was retrieved, used and that there was no other reasonable way to know it. But unless it is actually tried in a court in all major jurisdictions, it's just speculation from all parties (including line). One person could also claim that someone someday might leak information to them, and even though they'll ignore it, since they'll be exposed, they are tainted and can't contribute anymore. It'd be absurd. A project is free to chose who can contribute, but they can't necessarily gatekeep others from doing their own project with different rules.

That is the debate. And it is hotly contested. The legal framework around all this is way too immature to make a definitive statement one way or the other. Anyone who says otherwise is speculating. The only way to clarity will be legislation or court cases, because it really could go either way.

tiahura 19d ago
Not hotly contested by impartial legal types. There is a -6543.21% chance the Roberts’ Court does anything to hold ai back.

josephg 20d ago

Why would it? Unless you think OpenAI is training on Apple’s proprietary code?

Orphis 19d ago
They could claim that some employee one day used their model to ask a question about internal stuff and they trained on that. It doesn't have to necessarily have to make sense to make a claim, but it doesn't necessarily bear any weight.

mrheosuper 20d ago

Did Apple share their code with OpenAI ?

knollimar 19d ago
Aren't they literally being sued for taking it from Apple?

cromka 19d ago

Yeah I see developers constantly saying they RE stuff using LLM in a clean room way and it’s definitely an opinion, not a fact. Just look at the most recent post here: https://x.com/ewninjaofficial https://x.com/ewninjaofficial

Orphis 19d ago

If using the OpenAI models to develop this taints you with Apple insider knowledge, then so is developing any macOS, iOS, Android or Windows apps around that are using any LLM. You can't claim that some work is necessarily tainted by existing, you also have to prove which knowledge was retrieved, used and that there was no other reasonable way to know it. But unless it is actually tried in a court in all major jurisdictions, it's just speculation from all parties (including line). One person could also claim that someone someday might leak information to them, and even though they'll ignore it, since they'll be exposed, they are tainted and can't contribute anymore. It'd be absurd. A project is free to chose who can contribute, but they can't necessarily gatekeep others from doing their own project with different rules.