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Both Apple and Google have dropped the ball enough with the state of recent releases that some iPhone-equivalent-disruption product from the AI industry is beco

Both Apple and Google have dropped the ball enough with the state of recent releases that some iPhone-equivalent-disruption product from the AI industry is becoming conceivable, though I would be surprised if it turns out not to be running Android in some form. Putting a lot of effort into pushing complexity into software to reduce manufacturing complexity is precisely the sort of thing you worry about when you're getting serious about building consumer products.

iAMkenough 27d ago
AI cameras won’t be accepted with open arms like the iPhone was 20 years ago. Might as well buy an Android if it’s an Android. For the mass market, the AI industry has a trust problem.
- fidotron 27d ago
  This is like people that think FB is going under because they don't use it. ChatGPT is _enormous_. It doesn't matter if you don't trust it, half the planet does. They don't need to get the HN bubble on board. Edit to add: the absolute state of the replies to this. Hilarious.
  - DarmokTanagra 27d ago
    [dead]
  - rtyy 27d ago
    You’re boosting too hard bro
  - iAMkenough 27d ago
    Cope harder. How’s the Rabbit doing? Only the HN bubble is interested in a new publicly subsidized AI phone option, over the AI phone already in their pocket at least. Edit: what is this, Reddit?
    - phoghed 27d ago
      > Cope harder. > Edit: what is this, Reddit? Pick a lane brother
      - iAMkenough 27d ago
        I have regrets.
  - ungovernableCat 27d ago
    I mean by your own logic you can say you're doing the same thing. You think smartphones will get disrupted because you're bored by the mature form factor. I don't see that happening unless the new hardware and the way people interact with it is truly "magical" in some sense. Smartphones as a mature device category have so many things going for them that anything new will likely come as a complement for them (which apple can capitalise on) vs a complete replacement.
    - fidotron 27d ago
      > you're bored by the mature form factor. Actually, no. It's the irrelevant changes, such as Liquid Glass, which are the problem, where we all are made to learn new stuff to keep some designers busy. > I don't see that happening unless the new hardware and the way people interact with it is truly "magical" in some sense. But a truly AI enabled interface _would be_ magical. Being able to have a phone where your interface to it is completely built around your preferences, and not change at the whim of some external designer, for example. Where apps are merely things it uses on your behalf in the background . . . Neither Apple or Google could do this because it would disrupt their own cash cows too much. There is also a lot of scope for using neural nets to drive peripherals (including moving parts) in non obvious ways which could add to it all.
      - iAMkenough 27d ago
        The AI enabled interface sounds like an Android launcher I can download to my Android-based phone that I already own. Facebook tried their own Android launcher too. You want me to buy another Android phone AND proprietary peripherals too? In this economy?
      - thewebguyd 27d ago
        > where we all are made to learn new stuff Liquid glass didn't require any relearning at all, the iOS interface changed aesthetics, not functionality. The OS has worked largely the same for the past 10 years since the iPhone X. But I fail to see how an AI generated interface would be any better. What if after several back and forth with the AI, it still can't get the design right for you just so? It's not deterministic, you might get a different result every time you open your phone. Expecting third party services to leave their APIs open just so OpenAI phones can consume them is awfully optimistic as the moment such a device becomes an existential threat to third parties, APIs will start getting locked down. By all means, OpenAI should try, not saying they shouldn't, but I'm not optimistic it'll be a success. The smartphone is already basically peak form factor. No one is going to want to carry around a second device, which is why every other AI device/pin is DOA. It has to come out of the gate ready to fully replace someone's smartphone and the surrounding ecosystem of it or it also is DOA. Good camera? Support spotify/apple music? messaging, video calls, airdrop/nearbyshare, works with smartwatches and fitness trackers, etc. If it doesn't, it will fail.
- palmotea 27d ago
  > AI cameras won’t be accepted with open arms like the iPhone was 20 years ago. Might as well buy an Android if it’s an Android. > For the mass market, the AI industry has a trust problem. Oh how far we've fallen! Everyone should invite an OpenAI into their homes to watch and hear their most intimate moments. Just think of the value! Next time someone fights with their spouse, the machine can email a summary with advice the next day! Mass bliss will surely follow!
  - fragmede 27d ago
    Why do you say that like it's not already happening?
giancarlostoro 27d ago
> though I would be surprised if it turns out not to be running Android in some form. Just yesterday I saw a post I cant recall if on here or reddit, someone coded an entire OS with Claude Code, I would not be surprised if they invest AI compute at building an OS themselves, though I'd never buy a phone from these companies. The person got it running on bare hardware. Found it: https://www.reddit.com/r/ClaudeAI/comments/1wfpydl/i_asked_claude_to_build_an_operating_system_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ClaudeAI/comments/1wfpydl/i_asked_c...
- fidotron 27d ago
  Android has a huge amount of battle tested stuff for running things like media codecs and GPUs connected to devices that are not rebooted for months on end by normal people. (The iPhone wasn't an entirely new OS either for a good reason). The whole vibe coding an OS might become a thing in the next few years, but you still have to QA and test it, and there simply hasn't actually been enough time for that.
  - drivebyhooting 27d ago
    Why can’t agents QA it?
    - fidotron 27d ago
      Hardware is hardware. At some point you have to run and test it on the real thing, and it always misbehaves in some previously undiscovered way. A lot of software people live under the illusion that hardware bugs don't happen, but they're ubiquitous and it's the job of firmware and OS people to reduce their impact. Edit: I should add anyone that's worked with me knows I strongly advocate offline fuzz testing of all software components, especially to deal with unexpected states coming from the hardware side. This has proven unreasonably effective, and absolutely is something agents can help with, but they won't solve the whole problem.
- dktp 27d ago
  The issue is getting developers to create apps for a new OS nobody uses (yet). And nobody will use it if they can't have their banking app and uber on it This becomes even tougher if they go the Apple route and don't allow other phone manufacturers to use their OS. Alternatively, if they go down the Windows Phone route, we saw how that played out considering that Google _pays_ manufacturers to use Android Making OS is very hard, but getting necessary adoption is likely even harder
walrus01 27d ago
I wonder if it might be some totally clean sheet of paper OS design but also capable of running Android applications in an emulation/virtualization layer. I think they know that any mass market handheld smartphone consumer device isn't going to succeed (windows phone) unless people can easily install all available apps from either the google play store or apple app store.
- fidotron 27d ago
  App store inertia has to be the decisive roadblock, and yeah, there would need to be some workaround. This could also be where China gets another win because of their de-Googled Android-not-Android ecosystem which would enable more competition in their local market than can be achieved elsewhere.
- deaton 27d ago
  But honestly, why do that when there's already a good, open-source(ish), well-designed, highly secure operating system platform that already runs Android apps? Any new clean sheet OS is either going to be worse than Android on one or more of these dimensions, or it will be absurdly expensive to vibe code.
- deleted 27d ago
  [deleted]
ssivark 27d ago
The time is ripening to disrupt Android/iOS. The place to start would be to rethink the device around AI. No need for apps or messy integrations with third-party crap. Just a simple device with a great new UX (not typing on a touchpad!) that is slick and does a few things very well (personal agent, coordinating with your personal knowledge base, handling external communications and your interface with the world). This could very easily supplant a phone. AI is rapidly getting to such a place where the you don't really need a developer ecosystem to get your device off the ground. As "plugins" into your agent at some later point -- sure, why not.
- thejohnconway 27d ago
  The problem is that although what most people use on a daily basis is small nearly everyone uses something unusual app for _something_. I think it would be quite hard to find a market large enough that didn’t include such people. There is a solution sitting there, which is running Android and having the AI run it behind the scenes I guess, but is suspect that would end up looking a lot like we have now.
  - frabcus 27d ago
    Or have an agent read the APK and make new software based on it.
  - dpark 27d ago
    This is the fundamental problem with all of these hypothetical new devices. If you assume you can come up with some new UI or innovative interaction model, maybe it’s purely voice or whatever else, then you have to ask if this could just run on a phone. Modern smartphones won’t be supplanted by tech that could just run on a phone. That doesn’t make any sense. For any new tech to take off and replace phones, it has to provide something that isn’t simply additive to the phone. Otherwise, it just makes more sense to build it into the existing phone. “A phone, but it has AI and no apps” isn’t even additive. It’s purely a loss of functionality.
    - ryandrake 26d ago
KaiserPro 27d ago
OpenAI want to make smart glasses, but can't do that yet because its not possible. So they are almost certianly making an alexa type thing with cameras. So they can build a device capable of recording the entire context of a household.
- wepple 27d ago
  > but can't do that yet because its not possible. Huh? Why not?
  - Shalomboy 27d ago
    Because the central limitation is still mass; a friction-fit frame light enough to sit on your face all day without fatigue is the market expectation for eyewear, and devices generally require parts which weigh more than glasses.
    - cma 27d ago
      They already exist. Glasses used to have heavy (at high prescription numbers) glass elements instead of plastic. HUD glasses can already fall in that weight envelope, with better weight distribution.
      - KaiserPro 27d ago
        HUD sure, but they are dumb displays, with no useful machine perception services (ie world locked rendering.) Basically you have about 130mw power budget. You need to do position, display, sound output, transcription, etc. https://www.secretbatcave.co.uk/software/musing-on-openais-device/ https://www.secretbatcave.co.uk/software/musing-on-openais-d... << an explanation here
        cma 27d ago
        World locked rendering isn't a requirement for smartglasses. Some existing ones in glasses for factor do have more limited visual positioning systems. In more obtrusive formfactors they have positioning suitable for world locked.
JKCalhoun 27d ago
I suspect Apple and Google can pivot pretty quickly if someone (OpenAI? Ive's company?) comes up with something clever. But if the LLM isn't local, I'm not buying.
Rover222 27d ago
"running Android in some form" I think it's more likely it would be a radical departure from existing mobile OS. More like an entirely generative experience. No discrete apps. The phone screen just morphs into whatever purpose you need at the time.

iAMkenough 27d ago

AI cameras won’t be accepted with open arms like the iPhone was 20 years ago. Might as well buy an Android if it’s an Android. For the mass market, the AI industry has a trust problem.

fidotron 27d ago
This is like people that think FB is going under because they don't use it. ChatGPT is _enormous_. It doesn't matter if you don't trust it, half the planet does. They don't need to get the HN bubble on board. Edit to add: the absolute state of the replies to this. Hilarious.
- DarmokTanagra 27d ago
  [dead]
- rtyy 27d ago
  You’re boosting too hard bro
- iAMkenough 27d ago
  Cope harder. How’s the Rabbit doing? Only the HN bubble is interested in a new publicly subsidized AI phone option, over the AI phone already in their pocket at least. Edit: what is this, Reddit?
  - phoghed 27d ago
    > Cope harder. > Edit: what is this, Reddit? Pick a lane brother
    - iAMkenough 27d ago
      I have regrets.
- ungovernableCat 27d ago
  I mean by your own logic you can say you're doing the same thing. You think smartphones will get disrupted because you're bored by the mature form factor. I don't see that happening unless the new hardware and the way people interact with it is truly "magical" in some sense. Smartphones as a mature device category have so many things going for them that anything new will likely come as a complement for them (which apple can capitalise on) vs a complete replacement.
  - fidotron 27d ago
    > you're bored by the mature form factor. Actually, no. It's the irrelevant changes, such as Liquid Glass, which are the problem, where we all are made to learn new stuff to keep some designers busy. > I don't see that happening unless the new hardware and the way people interact with it is truly "magical" in some sense. But a truly AI enabled interface _would be_ magical. Being able to have a phone where your interface to it is completely built around your preferences, and not change at the whim of some external designer, for example. Where apps are merely things it uses on your behalf in the background . . . Neither Apple or Google could do this because it would disrupt their own cash cows too much. There is also a lot of scope for using neural nets to drive peripherals (including moving parts) in non obvious ways which could add to it all.
    - iAMkenough 27d ago
      The AI enabled interface sounds like an Android launcher I can download to my Android-based phone that I already own. Facebook tried their own Android launcher too. You want me to buy another Android phone AND proprietary peripherals too? In this economy?
    - thewebguyd 27d ago
      > where we all are made to learn new stuff Liquid glass didn't require any relearning at all, the iOS interface changed aesthetics, not functionality. The OS has worked largely the same for the past 10 years since the iPhone X. But I fail to see how an AI generated interface would be any better. What if after several back and forth with the AI, it still can't get the design right for you just so? It's not deterministic, you might get a different result every time you open your phone. Expecting third party services to leave their APIs open just so OpenAI phones can consume them is awfully optimistic as the moment such a device becomes an existential threat to third parties, APIs will start getting locked down. By all means, OpenAI should try, not saying they shouldn't, but I'm not optimistic it'll be a success. The smartphone is already basically peak form factor. No one is going to want to carry around a second device, which is why every other AI device/pin is DOA. It has to come out of the gate ready to fully replace someone's smartphone and the surrounding ecosystem of it or it also is DOA. Good camera? Support spotify/apple music? messaging, video calls, airdrop/nearbyshare, works with smartwatches and fitness trackers, etc. If it doesn't, it will fail.
palmotea 27d ago
> AI cameras won’t be accepted with open arms like the iPhone was 20 years ago. Might as well buy an Android if it’s an Android. > For the mass market, the AI industry has a trust problem. Oh how far we've fallen! Everyone should invite an OpenAI into their homes to watch and hear their most intimate moments. Just think of the value! Next time someone fights with their spouse, the machine can email a summary with advice the next day! Mass bliss will surely follow!
- fragmede 27d ago
  Why do you say that like it's not already happening?

giancarlostoro 27d ago

> though I would be surprised if it turns out not to be running Android in some form. Just yesterday I saw a post I cant recall if on here or reddit, someone coded an entire OS with Claude Code, I would not be surprised if they invest AI compute at building an OS themselves, though I'd never buy a phone from these companies. The person got it running on bare hardware. Found it: https://www.reddit.com/r/ClaudeAI/comments/1wfpydl/i_asked_claude_to_build_an_operating_system_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ClaudeAI/comments/1wfpydl/i_asked_c...

fidotron 27d ago
Android has a huge amount of battle tested stuff for running things like media codecs and GPUs connected to devices that are not rebooted for months on end by normal people. (The iPhone wasn't an entirely new OS either for a good reason). The whole vibe coding an OS might become a thing in the next few years, but you still have to QA and test it, and there simply hasn't actually been enough time for that.
- drivebyhooting 27d ago
  Why can’t agents QA it?
  - fidotron 27d ago
    Hardware is hardware. At some point you have to run and test it on the real thing, and it always misbehaves in some previously undiscovered way. A lot of software people live under the illusion that hardware bugs don't happen, but they're ubiquitous and it's the job of firmware and OS people to reduce their impact. Edit: I should add anyone that's worked with me knows I strongly advocate offline fuzz testing of all software components, especially to deal with unexpected states coming from the hardware side. This has proven unreasonably effective, and absolutely is something agents can help with, but they won't solve the whole problem.
dktp 27d ago
The issue is getting developers to create apps for a new OS nobody uses (yet). And nobody will use it if they can't have their banking app and uber on it This becomes even tougher if they go the Apple route and don't allow other phone manufacturers to use their OS. Alternatively, if they go down the Windows Phone route, we saw how that played out considering that Google _pays_ manufacturers to use Android Making OS is very hard, but getting necessary adoption is likely even harder

walrus01 27d ago

I wonder if it might be some totally clean sheet of paper OS design but also capable of running Android applications in an emulation/virtualization layer. I think they know that any mass market handheld smartphone consumer device isn't going to succeed (windows phone) unless people can easily install all available apps from either the google play store or apple app store.

fidotron 27d ago
App store inertia has to be the decisive roadblock, and yeah, there would need to be some workaround. This could also be where China gets another win because of their de-Googled Android-not-Android ecosystem which would enable more competition in their local market than can be achieved elsewhere.
deaton 27d ago
But honestly, why do that when there's already a good, open-source(ish), well-designed, highly secure operating system platform that already runs Android apps? Any new clean sheet OS is either going to be worse than Android on one or more of these dimensions, or it will be absurdly expensive to vibe code.
deleted 27d ago
[deleted]

ssivark 27d ago

The time is ripening to disrupt Android/iOS. The place to start would be to rethink the device around AI. No need for apps or messy integrations with third-party crap. Just a simple device with a great new UX (not typing on a touchpad!) that is slick and does a few things very well (personal agent, coordinating with your personal knowledge base, handling external communications and your interface with the world). This could very easily supplant a phone. AI is rapidly getting to such a place where the you don't really need a developer ecosystem to get your device off the ground. As "plugins" into your agent at some later point -- sure, why not.

thejohnconway 27d ago
The problem is that although what most people use on a daily basis is small nearly everyone uses something unusual app for _something_. I think it would be quite hard to find a market large enough that didn’t include such people. There is a solution sitting there, which is running Android and having the AI run it behind the scenes I guess, but is suspect that would end up looking a lot like we have now.
- frabcus 27d ago
  Or have an agent read the APK and make new software based on it.
- dpark 27d ago
  This is the fundamental problem with all of these hypothetical new devices. If you assume you can come up with some new UI or innovative interaction model, maybe it’s purely voice or whatever else, then you have to ask if this could just run on a phone. Modern smartphones won’t be supplanted by tech that could just run on a phone. That doesn’t make any sense. For any new tech to take off and replace phones, it has to provide something that isn’t simply additive to the phone. Otherwise, it just makes more sense to build it into the existing phone. “A phone, but it has AI and no apps” isn’t even additive. It’s purely a loss of functionality.
  - ryandrake 26d ago

KaiserPro 27d ago

OpenAI want to make smart glasses, but can't do that yet because its not possible. So they are almost certianly making an alexa type thing with cameras. So they can build a device capable of recording the entire context of a household.

wepple 27d ago
> but can't do that yet because its not possible. Huh? Why not?
- Shalomboy 27d ago
  Because the central limitation is still mass; a friction-fit frame light enough to sit on your face all day without fatigue is the market expectation for eyewear, and devices generally require parts which weigh more than glasses.
  - cma 27d ago
    They already exist. Glasses used to have heavy (at high prescription numbers) glass elements instead of plastic. HUD glasses can already fall in that weight envelope, with better weight distribution.
    - KaiserPro 27d ago
      HUD sure, but they are dumb displays, with no useful machine perception services (ie world locked rendering.) Basically you have about 130mw power budget. You need to do position, display, sound output, transcription, etc. https://www.secretbatcave.co.uk/software/musing-on-openais-device/ https://www.secretbatcave.co.uk/software/musing-on-openais-d... << an explanation here
      - cma 27d ago
        World locked rendering isn't a requirement for smartglasses. Some existing ones in glasses for factor do have more limited visual positioning systems. In more obtrusive formfactors they have positioning suitable for world locked.

JKCalhoun 27d ago

I suspect Apple and Google can pivot pretty quickly if someone (OpenAI? Ive's company?) comes up with something clever. But if the LLM isn't local, I'm not buying.

Rover222 27d ago

"running Android in some form" I think it's more likely it would be a radical departure from existing mobile OS. More like an entirely generative experience. No discrete apps. The phone screen just morphs into whatever purpose you need at the time.