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I did a ctrl-f in the article for "missionary" or "missionaries" and found nothing. There's a real problem (in my opinion) with weird evangelical Christian miss

I did a ctrl-f in the article for "missionary" or "missionaries" and found nothing. There's a real problem (in my opinion) with weird evangelical Christian missionaries who treat the population of PNG as some sort of religious terra nullus. It's a bit weird to write a reasonably lengthy and detailed article about New Guinea and not mention the missionaries...? They see it as some great holy mission from god to go out into the hinterlands and convert the local people from their local existing belief system to their own particular form of Christianity. The "mission aviation foundation" collects considerable amounts of money to operate bush planes for this purpose. Edit: PNG is really the most egregious example, but there is clearly a phenomenon that exists of evangelical christian missionaries that seek out the "least developed" or most "bone in the nose" pre-technology isolated cultures and then do fervent work to convert them into dedicated followers of their own specific niche of Christianity. You'll see it in very rural parts of Africa as well. If you spend some time in the churches where they raise funds for these and look at the presentations of the guest speakers brought in to solicit funds for their ongoing missionary campaigns you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

kurtis_reed 24d ago
Congratulations on your opinion?
embedding-shape 24d ago
Well, colonialism also been an issue for hundreds of years, but wouldn't it be boring to bring that up every time a country impacted by it is mentioned? This article is clearly not about missionaries, why would they be required to mention them? Half the world been impacted by missionaries one way or another, we'd never hear the end of it if it'd be mentioned every single time...
- walrus01 24d ago
  It's a very incomplete picture of the situation in PNG to describe it in a reasonably lengthy article (particularly the situation in the post 1945 modern era) without at least spending a paragraph on the presence and influence of missionaries. It's like trying to describe Idaho and neglecting to mention the potato farming area in the fertile flat land within a few hundred km radius of Boise, for example. Missionaries put a very specific special emphasis and great deal of attention on PNG as a "target", so yes they're worldwide, but they're very much more so in PNG.
  - embedding-shape 24d ago
    > It's a very incomplete picture of the situation in PNG to describe it in a reasonably lengthy article (particularly the situation in the post 1945 modern era) without at least spending a paragraph on the presence and influence of missionaries. Why don't you read through the article before you comment on how incomplete or not it is? It's literally not about missionaries but about something else, the first contact with those tribes, which wasn't missionaries at all, but seemingly gold prospectors, if I skimmed correctly.
    - walrus01 24d ago
      I read the article and I comprehend the English language. The article puts a specific emphasis on foreigners "discovering" that the rural interior of the country was populated, and foreigners going up into the highlands and contacting the local people. A great many of those foreigners were (and still are) missionaries. It's a well documented historical fact that a great deal of the "exploration" of the interior of PNG was by Christian missionaries.
      - embedding-shape 24d ago
        > A great many of those foreigners were (and still are) missionaries. Sure, but not in this case, that the article we're supposed to be discussing, is about! Does every article about PNG need to include that Christian missionaries at one point were there, even if the events the article discusses isn't about Christian missionaries? Like some sort of legally enforced disclaimer in the footer or whatever? Why the crusade here, against some random article about something else??
        walrus01 24d ago
        To be clear I don't have a beef with the author of the article, but the missionaries themselves. I just thought it was odd to write an article about foreigners going up into the PNG highlands and not mention missionaries at all. Not sure whether it's intentional in the context, but interesting Freudian slip type use of the word "crusade", you might want to consider its etymology and origins.
- throwaway27448 24d ago
  I mean we shouldn't hear the end of it. Humanity is theoretically capable of learning. I have my doubts but the liberals assure me
redsocksfan45 24d ago
[dead]
relevant_stats 24d ago
> They see it as some great holy mission from god to go out into the hinterlands and convert the local people from their local existing belief system to their own particular form of Christianity. Call me apologist, but I can see no real problem with that. They are willing to take risks and have enough motivation to spend resources. Whatever I think about their belief system in my opinion they are free to do that. It's not 1800s, if the given population doesn't like missionaries, as far as I'm aware it's equally free not to listen to them. Or to throw them out.
- timcobb 24d ago
  Cargo culting is still a thing, the power imbalance is still real here. Kicking people out is generally much trickier than letting them in, these aren't simple things. Remote populations aren't global idea consumers at the internet-accessible global ideas mart.
  - ericmay 24d ago
    > Remote populations aren't global idea consumers at the internet-accessible global ideas mart. Why not?
    - walrus01 24d ago
      At the risk of taking the bait, what percentage of PNG highland villagers living in grass thatched huts do you think have 24x7 electricity and broadband Internet and intermediate to advanced level literacy in one of the Internet's major languages?
      - ericmay 23d ago
        It’s not bait. I don’t think the OP that I responded to was speaking about the mechanics of introducing these populations to the Internet (they’re welcome to correct me) but that they shouldn’t be introduced to such things or that the introduction would be tantamount to exploitation of some sort.
Brendinooo 24d ago
>They see it as some great holy mission from god to go out into the hinterlands and convert the local people from their local existing belief system to their own particular form of Christianity That is, pretty famously, the "great commission" given by the founder of the faith. >Christian missionaries who treat the population of PNG as some sort of religious terra nullus Apparently it's not a religious terra nullus, since PNG's parliament recently voted 80-4 to identify themselves as a Christian nation. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/pacific/544665/papua-new-guinea-declares-christian-identity-in-constitutional-amendment https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/pacific/544665/papua-new-guinea-d...
skissane 24d ago
> There's a real problem (in my opinion) with weird evangelical Christian missionaries who treat the population of PNG as some sort of religious terra nullus The contemporary role of missionaries is complicated. My mother is a (now retired) doctor, who formerly (>10 years ago) worked for a Seventh Day Adventist church mission in the Solomon Islands (I also mentioned in another comment she worked in the PNG, that was with Australian Doctors International, a secular charity–although even part of that work involved working with a French doctor who happened to be a Catholic nun). My mother isn't a Seventh Day Adventist, she isn't even particularly religious (lapsed Catholic) – her personal motivations weren't about religion, it was about charity, and also the professional and personal experience. She just somehow (I think through some work colleagues who happened to be Seventh Day Adventists) became aware of the mission and ended up working for it–it was essentially volunteering, they may have reimbursed some of her expenses, but whatever she was paid was a fraction of what she'd get working as a doctor in Australia. The mission wasn't currently converting the local population – that had already happened generations ago - and much of the local population combined Christianity with elements of their indigenous belief systems. I guess coming from a Catholic background gave her some personal tolerance for the religious aspect, even if it was never her motivation.
- throwaway2037 23d ago
  Why is this downvoted? This is high quality post sharing personal experience. This is one of the best reasons to read HN.
  - skissane 23d ago
    It’s rather pointless to speculate—I believe HN moderators can see who downvoted, but even they can only guess at why. Sometimes people even downvote by accident when they mean to upvote—easy to do on your phone Also, I find anything which says “conservative religion isn’t purely bad” tends to reliably attract some downvotes. A lot of people feel hurt or even traumatised by conservative religious groups (often not even the one under discussion), so I can understand why they do it.
    - 19d ago
deleted 24d ago
[deleted]
ransom1538 24d ago
This is what Columbus saw: "The captive women told the Spaniards that Carib men traveled by canoe to neighboring islands, killed or captured men and carried away young women. Chanca says the women were kept as servants and concubines. They further alleged that children born to these captive women by Carib men were eaten, whereas children born to Carib women were raised." IMHO People had it rough before missions. These particular natives left right there and were ready to sign up!
- TheOtherHobbes 24d ago
  Columbus and the Conquistadores and slavers did exactly the same things, at scale. (Apart from the cannibalism, so far as we know.) Being able to write and use technology stops no one from being a savage, if they're that way inclined.
  - deleted 23d ago
    [deleted]
  - hackable_sand 23d ago
    What the actual fuck? Cannibalism of slaves is very well-known. Where are you getting your information from?
- nibbleyou 23d ago
  [dead]
- hermitcrab 23d ago
  People have been saying nasty things about neighbouring groups since forever.
deleted 24d ago
[deleted]
Georgelemental 23d ago
Converting people to a modern religion is a lot easier when their existing culture and beliefs are less developed. So there is a race of sorts, to convert as many less developed groups to your religion as possible before a rival religion gets to them.

kurtis_reed 24d ago

Congratulations on your opinion?

embedding-shape 24d ago

Well, colonialism also been an issue for hundreds of years, but wouldn't it be boring to bring that up every time a country impacted by it is mentioned? This article is clearly not about missionaries, why would they be required to mention them? Half the world been impacted by missionaries one way or another, we'd never hear the end of it if it'd be mentioned every single time...

walrus01 24d ago
It's a very incomplete picture of the situation in PNG to describe it in a reasonably lengthy article (particularly the situation in the post 1945 modern era) without at least spending a paragraph on the presence and influence of missionaries. It's like trying to describe Idaho and neglecting to mention the potato farming area in the fertile flat land within a few hundred km radius of Boise, for example. Missionaries put a very specific special emphasis and great deal of attention on PNG as a "target", so yes they're worldwide, but they're very much more so in PNG.
- embedding-shape 24d ago
  > It's a very incomplete picture of the situation in PNG to describe it in a reasonably lengthy article (particularly the situation in the post 1945 modern era) without at least spending a paragraph on the presence and influence of missionaries. Why don't you read through the article before you comment on how incomplete or not it is? It's literally not about missionaries but about something else, the first contact with those tribes, which wasn't missionaries at all, but seemingly gold prospectors, if I skimmed correctly.
  - walrus01 24d ago
    I read the article and I comprehend the English language. The article puts a specific emphasis on foreigners "discovering" that the rural interior of the country was populated, and foreigners going up into the highlands and contacting the local people. A great many of those foreigners were (and still are) missionaries. It's a well documented historical fact that a great deal of the "exploration" of the interior of PNG was by Christian missionaries.
    - embedding-shape 24d ago
      > A great many of those foreigners were (and still are) missionaries. Sure, but not in this case, that the article we're supposed to be discussing, is about! Does every article about PNG need to include that Christian missionaries at one point were there, even if the events the article discusses isn't about Christian missionaries? Like some sort of legally enforced disclaimer in the footer or whatever? Why the crusade here, against some random article about something else??
      - walrus01 24d ago
        To be clear I don't have a beef with the author of the article, but the missionaries themselves. I just thought it was odd to write an article about foreigners going up into the PNG highlands and not mention missionaries at all. Not sure whether it's intentional in the context, but interesting Freudian slip type use of the word "crusade", you might want to consider its etymology and origins.
throwaway27448 24d ago
I mean we shouldn't hear the end of it. Humanity is theoretically capable of learning. I have my doubts but the liberals assure me

redsocksfan45 24d ago

[dead]

relevant_stats 24d ago

> They see it as some great holy mission from god to go out into the hinterlands and convert the local people from their local existing belief system to their own particular form of Christianity. Call me apologist, but I can see no real problem with that. They are willing to take risks and have enough motivation to spend resources. Whatever I think about their belief system in my opinion they are free to do that. It's not 1800s, if the given population doesn't like missionaries, as far as I'm aware it's equally free not to listen to them. Or to throw them out.

timcobb 24d ago
Cargo culting is still a thing, the power imbalance is still real here. Kicking people out is generally much trickier than letting them in, these aren't simple things. Remote populations aren't global idea consumers at the internet-accessible global ideas mart.
- ericmay 24d ago
  > Remote populations aren't global idea consumers at the internet-accessible global ideas mart. Why not?
  - walrus01 24d ago
    At the risk of taking the bait, what percentage of PNG highland villagers living in grass thatched huts do you think have 24x7 electricity and broadband Internet and intermediate to advanced level literacy in one of the Internet's major languages?
    - ericmay 23d ago
      It’s not bait. I don’t think the OP that I responded to was speaking about the mechanics of introducing these populations to the Internet (they’re welcome to correct me) but that they shouldn’t be introduced to such things or that the introduction would be tantamount to exploitation of some sort.

Brendinooo 24d ago

>They see it as some great holy mission from god to go out into the hinterlands and convert the local people from their local existing belief system to their own particular form of Christianity That is, pretty famously, the "great commission" given by the founder of the faith. >Christian missionaries who treat the population of PNG as some sort of religious terra nullus Apparently it's not a religious terra nullus, since PNG's parliament recently voted 80-4 to identify themselves as a Christian nation. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/pacific/544665/papua-new-guinea-declares-christian-identity-in-constitutional-amendment https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/pacific/544665/papua-new-guinea-d...

skissane 24d ago

> There's a real problem (in my opinion) with weird evangelical Christian missionaries who treat the population of PNG as some sort of religious terra nullus The contemporary role of missionaries is complicated. My mother is a (now retired) doctor, who formerly (>10 years ago) worked for a Seventh Day Adventist church mission in the Solomon Islands (I also mentioned in another comment she worked in the PNG, that was with Australian Doctors International, a secular charity–although even part of that work involved working with a French doctor who happened to be a Catholic nun). My mother isn't a Seventh Day Adventist, she isn't even particularly religious (lapsed Catholic) – her personal motivations weren't about religion, it was about charity, and also the professional and personal experience. She just somehow (I think through some work colleagues who happened to be Seventh Day Adventists) became aware of the mission and ended up working for it–it was essentially volunteering, they may have reimbursed some of her expenses, but whatever she was paid was a fraction of what she'd get working as a doctor in Australia. The mission wasn't currently converting the local population – that had already happened generations ago - and much of the local population combined Christianity with elements of their indigenous belief systems. I guess coming from a Catholic background gave her some personal tolerance for the religious aspect, even if it was never her motivation.

throwaway2037 23d ago
Why is this downvoted? This is high quality post sharing personal experience. This is one of the best reasons to read HN.
- skissane 23d ago
  It’s rather pointless to speculate—I believe HN moderators can see who downvoted, but even they can only guess at why. Sometimes people even downvote by accident when they mean to upvote—easy to do on your phone Also, I find anything which says “conservative religion isn’t purely bad” tends to reliably attract some downvotes. A lot of people feel hurt or even traumatised by conservative religious groups (often not even the one under discussion), so I can understand why they do it.
  - 19d ago

deleted 24d ago

[deleted]

ransom1538 24d ago

This is what Columbus saw: "The captive women told the Spaniards that Carib men traveled by canoe to neighboring islands, killed or captured men and carried away young women. Chanca says the women were kept as servants and concubines. They further alleged that children born to these captive women by Carib men were eaten, whereas children born to Carib women were raised." IMHO People had it rough before missions. These particular natives left right there and were ready to sign up!

TheOtherHobbes 24d ago
Columbus and the Conquistadores and slavers did exactly the same things, at scale. (Apart from the cannibalism, so far as we know.) Being able to write and use technology stops no one from being a savage, if they're that way inclined.
- deleted 23d ago
  [deleted]
- hackable_sand 23d ago
  What the actual fuck? Cannibalism of slaves is very well-known. Where are you getting your information from?
nibbleyou 23d ago
[dead]
hermitcrab 23d ago
People have been saying nasty things about neighbouring groups since forever.

deleted 24d ago

[deleted]

Georgelemental 23d ago

Converting people to a modern religion is a lot easier when their existing culture and beliefs are less developed. So there is a race of sorts, to convert as many less developed groups to your religion as possible before a rival religion gets to them.