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I used to watch https://www.youtube.com/@MissionaryBushPilot https://www.youtube.com/@MissionaryBushPilot deliver stuff around PNG in a Kodiak. If you're into a

I used to watch https://www.youtube.com/@MissionaryBushPilot https://www.youtube.com/@MissionaryBushPilot deliver stuff around PNG in a Kodiak. If you're into aviation, the videos are golden

walrus01 17d ago
On the other hand, the MAF is a highly questionable organization that exists specifically to convert the local people away from their own belief systems into whatever brand of evangelical Christianity its supporters are peddling. There's plenty of bush plane videos from Alaska, Nunavut and other challenging places in the world from ordinary small commercial bush plane operators. It's morally indefensible in my opinion for a bunch of random people from many thousands of km away to go off to some pre-technology rural villagers' home territory and basically say "everything you believe is wrong, here's our god, you must follow and believe in him or you're going to hell". If people want to go do bush plane things in remote areas and work in very challenging environments as weird foreigners, there's plenty of ways to justify that in the form of a secular NGO (something like Medecins Sans Frontiers) without combining it with missionary work.
- papua_is_being_ 17d ago
  > On the other hand, the MAF is a highly questionable organization that exists specifically to convert the local people away from their own belief At this stage in the ecocide and genocide of West Papua, any eyes are welcome no matter what their biases. If they want to convert people to their belief system, honestly I couldn't care right now as long as they protect the indigenous West Papuans from being genocided by Prabowo and his cronies and the beautiful ecology of the island from being ecocided.
- desterothx 17d ago
  If there is no funding for helping the people coming from the non evangelical sources, i'm sure the people would rather have medicine than keep dying, no matter the indoctrination they receive
- ShinyLeftPad 17d ago
  Are they actually violently forcing anyone though, like Russians did in Siberia etc?
  - hermitcrab 17d ago
    Probably not, but there is a massive imbalance of power between white missionaries with the trappings of the modern world and indigenous people.
    - ShinyLeftPad 17d ago
      Do you see diversity of cultures with different levels of development on the planet as a problem? Because as long as it exists there will be the imbalance
      - hermitcrab 17d ago
        >Do you see diversity of cultures with different levels of development on the planet as a problem? When a more 'advanced' group use their wealth, technology, medicine etc to control a less developed group - yes that can be a problem.
        ShinyLeftPad 17d ago
        Do you argue for full isolation and no assistance between those groups you describe?
        hermitcrab 17d ago
        No.
        ShinyLeftPad 17d ago
        can you describe how such groups can coexist without isolation so that the more developed one helps the less developed one without a degree of influence and control in some shape or form? ideally something not too far removed from how the world works today
- magarnicle 17d ago
  > It's morally indefensible in my opinion for a bunch of random people from many thousands of km away to go off to some pre-technology rural villagers' home territory and basically say "everything you believe is wrong, here's our god, you must follow and believe in him or you're going to hell". But...why? If they are just saying that, why is that indefensible? The villagers' are free to reject that message (or a more accurate version of it), as are you or anyone else.
  - krapp 17d ago
    Because they never "just say that." Christians aren't raised to believe that "no" is a valid answer - that means eternal damnation after all. Everyone must accept Christ, that's the message, and Christians must do whatever it takes to get that message across. Food, medicine and other elements of "civilization" are always used as leverage, a means of influence and control, to pacify and eventually convert. Inevitably another "pagan" culture is erased, its heritage and language forgotten, its children indoctrinated (perhaps by force as happened with American and Canadian indigenous people) and its people made subservient to Western interests.
    - magarnicle 17d ago
      All that has been true, but it was not always true, and it is only half the truth. You've used "never" and "always" as if Christianity, Christian missions, and the cultures they try to reach are a monolith and the same everywhere. You've also insisted that any aide must only be to strengthen the power of the missionaries, and has nothing at all to do with the character of the very message itself. You've also underestimated the agency of indigenous cultures and their ability to appropriate Christianity, so much so that some Tiwi Islanders (islands to the south of PNG) insist that they converted the Catholic church when it embraced them (https://researchportalplus.anu.edu.au/en/publications/going-native-converting-narratives-in-tiwi-histories-of-twentieth/ https://researchportalplus.anu.edu.au/en/publications/going-...)
      - krapp 16d ago
        The character of the message is that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Missionaries bring aid because they bring the Gospel. They wouldn't bring aid without bringing the Gospel. But like that idiot who tried to convert the Sentinelese, they would bring the Gospel without aid, if they felt so compelled. I don't think it's incorrect to say that everything else is a means to the common end. Christianity is an assimilationist religion. Jesuits may do it differently than Catholics who may do it differently than Baptists, but conversion is always the end goal. >You've also underestimated the agency of indigenous cultures and their ability to appropriate Christianity, so much so that some Tiwi Islanders (islands to the south of PNG) insist that they converted the Catholic church when it embraced them. I mean, they didn't, that isn't ever really how that works. Whatever Catholicism they appropriated will inevitably erase and obscure their culture and identity, as will the influence of Western culture. I couldn't read the article you posted unfortunately but I did find an article that basically seems to tell the story[0]. I also found an article written by someone of Tiwi descent that tells a less friendly, or at least more complicated story[1]. I'm more willing to believe the word of a native over a Christian missionary, all else being equal. It may not be fair but history demonstrates that the relationship between Christianity and indigenous peoples is one of exploitation, suffering and colonization more often than not. [0]https://www.abc.net.au/religion/tiwi-christianity-aboriginal-histories-catholic-mission-and-a-su/10095012 https://www.abc.net.au/religion/tiwi-christianity-aboriginal... [1]https://www.thenorthernmyth.com/2017/12/20/graverobbers-god-aiatsis-vatican-anthropologists-tiwi-islands/ https://www.thenorthernmyth.com/2017/12/20/graverobbers-god-...
- otabdeveloper4 16d ago
  > everything you believe is wrong, here's our god, you must follow and believe in him or you're going to hell "Democracy" and "human rights" is basically that but on steroids. Surely you're not a cultural relativist that simply going to allow uncontacted people to be racist and misogynist willy-nilly?
  - skeaker 16d ago
    Those things aren't at all equivalent, so I'm not sure I understand your point.

I used to watch https://www.youtube.com/@MissionaryBushPilot https://www.youtube.com/@MissionaryBushPilot deliver stuff around PNG in a Kodiak. If you're into aviation, the videos are golden

walrus01 17d ago

On the other hand, the MAF is a highly questionable organization that exists specifically to convert the local people away from their own belief systems into whatever brand of evangelical Christianity its supporters are peddling. There's plenty of bush plane videos from Alaska, Nunavut and other challenging places in the world from ordinary small commercial bush plane operators. It's morally indefensible in my opinion for a bunch of random people from many thousands of km away to go off to some pre-technology rural villagers' home territory and basically say "everything you believe is wrong, here's our god, you must follow and believe in him or you're going to hell". If people want to go do bush plane things in remote areas and work in very challenging environments as weird foreigners, there's plenty of ways to justify that in the form of a secular NGO (something like Medecins Sans Frontiers) without combining it with missionary work.

papua_is_being_ 17d ago
> On the other hand, the MAF is a highly questionable organization that exists specifically to convert the local people away from their own belief At this stage in the ecocide and genocide of West Papua, any eyes are welcome no matter what their biases. If they want to convert people to their belief system, honestly I couldn't care right now as long as they protect the indigenous West Papuans from being genocided by Prabowo and his cronies and the beautiful ecology of the island from being ecocided.
desterothx 17d ago
If there is no funding for helping the people coming from the non evangelical sources, i'm sure the people would rather have medicine than keep dying, no matter the indoctrination they receive
ShinyLeftPad 17d ago
Are they actually violently forcing anyone though, like Russians did in Siberia etc?
- hermitcrab 17d ago
  Probably not, but there is a massive imbalance of power between white missionaries with the trappings of the modern world and indigenous people.
  - ShinyLeftPad 17d ago
    Do you see diversity of cultures with different levels of development on the planet as a problem? Because as long as it exists there will be the imbalance
    - hermitcrab 17d ago
      >Do you see diversity of cultures with different levels of development on the planet as a problem? When a more 'advanced' group use their wealth, technology, medicine etc to control a less developed group - yes that can be a problem.
      - ShinyLeftPad 17d ago
        Do you argue for full isolation and no assistance between those groups you describe?
        hermitcrab 17d ago
        No.
        ShinyLeftPad 17d ago
        can you describe how such groups can coexist without isolation so that the more developed one helps the less developed one without a degree of influence and control in some shape or form? ideally something not too far removed from how the world works today
magarnicle 17d ago
> It's morally indefensible in my opinion for a bunch of random people from many thousands of km away to go off to some pre-technology rural villagers' home territory and basically say "everything you believe is wrong, here's our god, you must follow and believe in him or you're going to hell". But...why? If they are just saying that, why is that indefensible? The villagers' are free to reject that message (or a more accurate version of it), as are you or anyone else.
- krapp 17d ago
  Because they never "just say that." Christians aren't raised to believe that "no" is a valid answer - that means eternal damnation after all. Everyone must accept Christ, that's the message, and Christians must do whatever it takes to get that message across. Food, medicine and other elements of "civilization" are always used as leverage, a means of influence and control, to pacify and eventually convert. Inevitably another "pagan" culture is erased, its heritage and language forgotten, its children indoctrinated (perhaps by force as happened with American and Canadian indigenous people) and its people made subservient to Western interests.
  - magarnicle 17d ago
    All that has been true, but it was not always true, and it is only half the truth. You've used "never" and "always" as if Christianity, Christian missions, and the cultures they try to reach are a monolith and the same everywhere. You've also insisted that any aide must only be to strengthen the power of the missionaries, and has nothing at all to do with the character of the very message itself. You've also underestimated the agency of indigenous cultures and their ability to appropriate Christianity, so much so that some Tiwi Islanders (islands to the south of PNG) insist that they converted the Catholic church when it embraced them (https://researchportalplus.anu.edu.au/en/publications/going-native-converting-narratives-in-tiwi-histories-of-twentieth/ https://researchportalplus.anu.edu.au/en/publications/going-...)
    - krapp 16d ago
      The character of the message is that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Missionaries bring aid because they bring the Gospel. They wouldn't bring aid without bringing the Gospel. But like that idiot who tried to convert the Sentinelese, they would bring the Gospel without aid, if they felt so compelled. I don't think it's incorrect to say that everything else is a means to the common end. Christianity is an assimilationist religion. Jesuits may do it differently than Catholics who may do it differently than Baptists, but conversion is always the end goal. >You've also underestimated the agency of indigenous cultures and their ability to appropriate Christianity, so much so that some Tiwi Islanders (islands to the south of PNG) insist that they converted the Catholic church when it embraced them. I mean, they didn't, that isn't ever really how that works. Whatever Catholicism they appropriated will inevitably erase and obscure their culture and identity, as will the influence of Western culture. I couldn't read the article you posted unfortunately but I did find an article that basically seems to tell the story[0]. I also found an article written by someone of Tiwi descent that tells a less friendly, or at least more complicated story[1]. I'm more willing to believe the word of a native over a Christian missionary, all else being equal. It may not be fair but history demonstrates that the relationship between Christianity and indigenous peoples is one of exploitation, suffering and colonization more often than not. [0]https://www.abc.net.au/religion/tiwi-christianity-aboriginal-histories-catholic-mission-and-a-su/10095012 https://www.abc.net.au/religion/tiwi-christianity-aboriginal... [1]https://www.thenorthernmyth.com/2017/12/20/graverobbers-god-aiatsis-vatican-anthropologists-tiwi-islands/ https://www.thenorthernmyth.com/2017/12/20/graverobbers-god-...
otabdeveloper4 16d ago
> everything you believe is wrong, here's our god, you must follow and believe in him or you're going to hell "Democracy" and "human rights" is basically that but on steroids. Surely you're not a cultural relativist that simply going to allow uncontacted people to be racist and misogynist willy-nilly?
- skeaker 16d ago
  Those things aren't at all equivalent, so I'm not sure I understand your point.