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Wow, clueless. You entirely miss the point of the war. Putin sees the mere existence of a successful Ukraine's as an existential threat. Putin initially got el

by toss1 14d ago

Wow, clueless. You entirely miss the point of the war. Putin sees the mere existence of a successful Ukraine's as an existential threat. Putin initially got elected on promises that included becoming an advanced Western-style economy. He abandoned that to crony oligarchism, stripping the country for parts. Now, he and the Russian people see former Soviet state Ukraine actually becoming successful, well-off, and aspiring to EU membership. THAT can not be tolerated, because it would give Russian people the idea that they should have the same, and create a likely revolution at home. So Putin's goal is to wipe Ukraine not only off the map, but off the consciousness of everyone in the world as Ukrainians as a people Putin will stop until either 1) he achieves this goal, or 2) he is forced to stop. THAT is the reality. Thinking that Putin would somehow have accepted lesser sanctions earlier, and that he would have actually respected your new peace plan when he has never respected any other is to be played for a fool. Allowing 1) to happen is unacceptable. Note the Ukrainians who are directly suffering the daily assaults can think as well as you can of the "realpolitik solution", and they reject it, because they know it is absolutely stupid, and leads only to rape, torture, and death — theirs, personally. Making 2) happen is the only course of action. Ukrainians will follow it until they cannot. If you want to stop the suffering, then accelerate Russia's exit. Garry Kasparov articulated a fine plan days ago [0]: 1: Provide complete protection of Ukrainian airspace 2: Immediately send Ukraine all the weapons it needs; no delay 3: Enforce existing sanctions. To this I add including seizing Russian and Iranian shadow fleet vessels 4: Cessation of diplomatic affairs with Russia 5: Seize Russian sovereign funds immediately and use them to power the war effort in Ukraine This would be a start. Ukraine continuing its "long-range sanctions" is already bringing the Russian state coffers to rapid decline and looming budget crisis. Continuing it longer will force Putin's hand. [0] https://ukrainetoday.org/five-hammer-blows-that-could-finally-defeat-putins-russia/ https://ukrainetoday.org/five-hammer-blows-that-could-finall...

pembrook 14d ago
I agree the EU actually stepping up and entering the war in a serious way would tilt everything in Ukraine's favor. The problem is they just won't. The most important members of the EU (Germany and France) are in shambles domestically and turning far right. Both have little desire to stick their necks out to support Ukraine any further and are likely turning the opposite direction. Also, Russia has nukes. Nobody wants to provoke that any more than necessary. If Europe weren't a feckless, fragmented military vacuum things might be different, but nothing about that appears to be changing any time soon.
- toss1 14d ago
  You still insist on overlooking the fundamental truths: 1) If the Russians stop fighting, the war ends. 2) If the Ukrainians stop fighting, their land will be occupied, their leaders will be killed, their history and language will be erased, their children will be kidnapped to serve Russia. Whether or not the EU steps up and helps, whether or not Russia uses nukes (another entire discussion), this is still the fundamental fact of the matter. The Ukrainians know this, and that is why they must, and they will, fight to the end. It is easy to sacrifice the land and lives of others. Would you willingly surrender YOUR OWN city/sat/country to Putin's under those plans; do you have children and do you know what happens to captured children, particularly girls? (serious question)

by toss1 14d ago

pembrook 14d ago

I agree the EU actually stepping up and entering the war in a serious way would tilt everything in Ukraine's favor. The problem is they just won't. The most important members of the EU (Germany and France) are in shambles domestically and turning far right. Both have little desire to stick their necks out to support Ukraine any further and are likely turning the opposite direction. Also, Russia has nukes. Nobody wants to provoke that any more than necessary. If Europe weren't a feckless, fragmented military vacuum things might be different, but nothing about that appears to be changing any time soon.

toss1 14d ago
You still insist on overlooking the fundamental truths: 1) If the Russians stop fighting, the war ends. 2) If the Ukrainians stop fighting, their land will be occupied, their leaders will be killed, their history and language will be erased, their children will be kidnapped to serve Russia. Whether or not the EU steps up and helps, whether or not Russia uses nukes (another entire discussion), this is still the fundamental fact of the matter. The Ukrainians know this, and that is why they must, and they will, fight to the end. It is easy to sacrifice the land and lives of others. Would you willingly surrender YOUR OWN city/sat/country to Putin's under those plans; do you have children and do you know what happens to captured children, particularly girls? (serious question)