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Not that I disagree entirely, but looking at deaths prevented isn't really relevant. Terrorism isn't about death, it's about terror, putting people in a state

Not that I disagree entirely, but looking at deaths prevented isn't really relevant. Terrorism isn't about death, it's about terror, putting people in a state of fear. The war on terror isn't about preventing death, it's about preventing fear. People aren't afraid of choking on peanut butter or car accidents because they feel they have some control over those situations. Terrorism creates fear by removing that sense of control.

polshaw 14y ago
>The war on terror is... about preventing fear. Many people would argue exactly the opposite
- gnaritas 14y ago
  You can argue the opposite of anything, and many do; doesn't mean anything. 911 for example, caused the fear, which then was used to pass draconian laws, but those laws were meant to both seize power and alleviate the fear, to the point of implementing things like the TSA, which aren't real protection, but make people feel less fear.
  - mhurron 14y ago
    Other than the government with it's war on terror, who has actually done anything to perpetrate fear in the population? Since 2001, there has been no terrorist activity against the US. You are told about threats the war on terror has dealt with, but no actual action or actors can be pointed to yet the government is keeps the fear of terror alive. They have done far more to that end than any terrorist organization has. This causes the population in general to accept any course of action that they are told will deal with that looming threat, but it never seems to do so. Once side of the government generates and keeps the fear alive, the other side uses the fear to do what they wish. Neither side wants the fear to go away. The US Government is the largest group terrorizing the US population today. They use the war on terror to do it.
    - gnaritas 14y ago
      Well, we just disagree.
      - obstacle1 14y ago
        Do you disagree with anything specific, or are you just done discussing it? I've not heard many people seriously argue that the TSA's mandate is to alleviate fear, much less argue that the TSA carries out said mandate successfully.
        gnaritas 14y ago
        Just done discussing it.
  - polshaw 14y ago
    When considering the war on terror, and the threat to america/'the west', i think of how damn easy it would be for any one of us to cause at least double digit deaths, if we were determined[1]. And yet, there are extremely few of these events related to islamic extremism. I think of how basic the attacks that have happened have been. The US does not share it's intelligence with us, but these facts suggest that the real threat is.. minimal. 1. Look at Breivik for example. Or the latest nutter shooting up a school.
jacquesm 14y ago
The war on terror positively thrives on fear. Terrified people make stupid mistakes, sign away their rights with reckless abandon in the hope that it will allay their fears. No electorate is so easy to manipulate as one that is afraid.
- gnaritas 14y ago
  Of course, but that fear that enables the war is the same fear the war is meant to eliminate, the fear caused by the initial terror attack. 911 scared the hell out of people, enough to allow some dreadful laws to be passed, but out of fear people do stupid things to try and feel safe again. The TSA doesn't make us safe, but it made most feel safer, at least initially.
  - jamesmcn 14y ago
    Using war to cure terror is like using cyanide to cure a headache. Osama bin Laden would have killed more Americans by investing in Ford and GM+. And after the bailout, he would have made a profit too! + I'm not picking on Ford or GM here, they make fine cars. But automobiles kill far more people every year than terrorism has in the last decade.
    - gnaritas 14y ago
      > But automobiles kill far more people every year than terrorism has in the last decade. Seems you rather missed the point of the whole thread; terrorism isn't about killing.
      - jamesmcn 14y ago
        No, I got the point. And Osama was quite effective at terrorism. Though I think most of the credit goes to the US government and media. I don't believe it was an inside job, rather that similar motivations created similar outcomes: radicalizing war in the middle east. If humans were rational, terrorism wouldn't work. Driving your car to work is more dangerous than taking the subway to the world trade center, even if the WTC was demolished every year. But we are afraid of what we fear, not what will actually kill us. There are a lot of people who are eager to exploit that cognitive defect.
revelation 14y ago
Is there really actual fear today in a western country? I think actual fear would have to come from injuries to someone you know and can feel empathy towards. Dunbars number suggests theres only very little of that based on the number of deaths due to terrorism.
- gnaritas 14y ago
  > Is there really actual fear today in a western country? Have you met the republican party? Their entire base lives off fear. > I think actual fear would have to come from injuries to someone you know and can feel empathy towards. It's not fear of death or injury, but fear of "other", of change, of being marginalized.
  - cglace 14y ago
    > Have you met the republican party? Their entire base lives off fear. First off not all in the republican party can be characterized this way. You are painting with very broad strokes. Many turn the republican party because they are the closest they can get to their economic beliefs. > It's not fear of death or injury, but fear of "other", of change, of being marginalized. Do you honestly believe this? Do you get your views of republicans from reddit and articles you read about people talking about fox news?
    - obstacle1 14y ago
      "They kinda come close to my views w/r/t one small aspect of national policy" is a pretty terrible reason to vote for a party. If you're correct that many citizens vote this way, you'd all be better off withholding from participation until you can fix your electoral system.
    - neumann_alfred 14y ago
      What is an "economic belief"? Seeing how broken our financial system and ways of thinking about it are, I take it it's some kind of religion, including all the baggage that comes with such an approach?
    - 14y ago
mattstreet 14y ago
And the "War on Terror" isn't exactly to calm people's fears either.
hrktb 14y ago
In the "follow the money" line of thinking, looking at who takes most benefits from terrorism explains a lot of things. "Terrorists" didn't get much I think. Politicians, law makers, government agencies got to push forward their agenda by leaps and bounds.
- krickle 14y ago
  The terrorists did get a lot of what they claimed they wanted, though.
- woah 14y ago
  Hmmm... I kinda wonder sometimes. This is a ludicrous idea, but have you ever thought about the recent HSBC scandal, where they were laundering billions and billions of dollars for terrorist organizations and organized crime? The same terrorist organizations and organized crime that is the primary justification for domestic spying, paramilitary police, huge prison populations, secret rendition and indefinite detention? Remember how the DOJ refused to prosecute? Wierd.
  - neumann_alfred 14y ago
    The more links (or phrases to search for) you could provide for this, the more grateful I'd be.
    - jre 14y ago
      Regarding the HSBC settlement : http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-proves-the-drug-war-is-a-joke-20121213 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageo... (Follow the links for a bunch of other relevant articles)
      - neumann_alfred 14y ago
        thanks!
  - mtgx 14y ago
oelmekki 14y ago
> it's about preventing fear From an outsider perspective, this is very relevant of what US has became. I'm always surprised that a country which places freedom as the highest value tends to give away all its civil rights so easily. Sounds to me like people behind 9/11 attacks have succeeded : US is not fighting fear, it's diving into it, more and more every year, hence the loss of freedom for its people.
mtgx 14y ago
So what does it mean when the people fear their government more when they implement those "anti-terror" policies?
lhnn 14y ago
I'm more afraid of my government than I am of al Qaeda.
BasDirks 14y ago
"The war on terror isn't about preventing death, it's about preventing fear." That's a good one.
enraged_camel 14y ago
>> Terrorism isn't about death, it's about terror, putting people in a state of fear. The war on terror isn't about preventing death, it's about preventing fear. Then it is the greatest irony of all time that people have become more fearful of surveillance and persecution by their own governments than some terrorists who live overseas.
- temp453463343 14y ago
  The vast majority of people don't live in fear of their governments because they don't care. In fact, fear of government controlling out lives is mostly an American collective psychosis. (even then limited to internet activists, survivalists, gun horders etc.) Not to say it's without merit, but this really doesn't preoccupy people's thoughts in other countries. I've tried to explaining to Japanese and British people that we have guns to prevent potential government oppression and to be able to take our personal protection into our own hands. They look at you ask if you're crazy/paranoid. The whole slippery slope stuff doesn't resonate at all. The whole thing basically boils down to: "If I were to potentially at some point in the indefinite future plot anti government activities through my email I want to be sure that big brother doesn't read it" This just seems ludicrous to most people.
  - gnaritas 14y ago
    It's because they're not infected since childhood with the particular American psychosis we call individuality and damn anyone else cause I got mine. That's very American.
rhizome 14y ago
No, the government exaggerates a fear of things people can't control well outside their level of risk in order to feed business to the security industries and receive campaign dollars.
whiddershins 14y ago
If causing fear defines what terrorism is, then the terrorists are government and media outlets who portray these extremely unlikely events as a credible threat. That is what creates the terror.

polshaw 14y ago

>The war on terror is... about preventing fear. Many people would argue exactly the opposite

gnaritas 14y ago
You can argue the opposite of anything, and many do; doesn't mean anything. 911 for example, caused the fear, which then was used to pass draconian laws, but those laws were meant to both seize power and alleviate the fear, to the point of implementing things like the TSA, which aren't real protection, but make people feel less fear.
- mhurron 14y ago
  Other than the government with it's war on terror, who has actually done anything to perpetrate fear in the population? Since 2001, there has been no terrorist activity against the US. You are told about threats the war on terror has dealt with, but no actual action or actors can be pointed to yet the government is keeps the fear of terror alive. They have done far more to that end than any terrorist organization has. This causes the population in general to accept any course of action that they are told will deal with that looming threat, but it never seems to do so. Once side of the government generates and keeps the fear alive, the other side uses the fear to do what they wish. Neither side wants the fear to go away. The US Government is the largest group terrorizing the US population today. They use the war on terror to do it.
  - gnaritas 14y ago
    Well, we just disagree.
    - obstacle1 14y ago
      Do you disagree with anything specific, or are you just done discussing it? I've not heard many people seriously argue that the TSA's mandate is to alleviate fear, much less argue that the TSA carries out said mandate successfully.
      - gnaritas 14y ago
        Just done discussing it.
- polshaw 14y ago
  When considering the war on terror, and the threat to america/'the west', i think of how damn easy it would be for any one of us to cause at least double digit deaths, if we were determined[1]. And yet, there are extremely few of these events related to islamic extremism. I think of how basic the attacks that have happened have been. The US does not share it's intelligence with us, but these facts suggest that the real threat is.. minimal. 1. Look at Breivik for example. Or the latest nutter shooting up a school.

jacquesm 14y ago

The war on terror positively thrives on fear. Terrified people make stupid mistakes, sign away their rights with reckless abandon in the hope that it will allay their fears. No electorate is so easy to manipulate as one that is afraid.

gnaritas 14y ago
Of course, but that fear that enables the war is the same fear the war is meant to eliminate, the fear caused by the initial terror attack. 911 scared the hell out of people, enough to allow some dreadful laws to be passed, but out of fear people do stupid things to try and feel safe again. The TSA doesn't make us safe, but it made most feel safer, at least initially.
- jamesmcn 14y ago
  Using war to cure terror is like using cyanide to cure a headache. Osama bin Laden would have killed more Americans by investing in Ford and GM+. And after the bailout, he would have made a profit too! + I'm not picking on Ford or GM here, they make fine cars. But automobiles kill far more people every year than terrorism has in the last decade.
  - gnaritas 14y ago
    > But automobiles kill far more people every year than terrorism has in the last decade. Seems you rather missed the point of the whole thread; terrorism isn't about killing.
    - jamesmcn 14y ago
      No, I got the point. And Osama was quite effective at terrorism. Though I think most of the credit goes to the US government and media. I don't believe it was an inside job, rather that similar motivations created similar outcomes: radicalizing war in the middle east. If humans were rational, terrorism wouldn't work. Driving your car to work is more dangerous than taking the subway to the world trade center, even if the WTC was demolished every year. But we are afraid of what we fear, not what will actually kill us. There are a lot of people who are eager to exploit that cognitive defect.

revelation 14y ago

Is there really actual fear today in a western country? I think actual fear would have to come from injuries to someone you know and can feel empathy towards. Dunbars number suggests theres only very little of that based on the number of deaths due to terrorism.

gnaritas 14y ago
> Is there really actual fear today in a western country? Have you met the republican party? Their entire base lives off fear. > I think actual fear would have to come from injuries to someone you know and can feel empathy towards. It's not fear of death or injury, but fear of "other", of change, of being marginalized.
- cglace 14y ago
  > Have you met the republican party? Their entire base lives off fear. First off not all in the republican party can be characterized this way. You are painting with very broad strokes. Many turn the republican party because they are the closest they can get to their economic beliefs. > It's not fear of death or injury, but fear of "other", of change, of being marginalized. Do you honestly believe this? Do you get your views of republicans from reddit and articles you read about people talking about fox news?
  - obstacle1 14y ago
    "They kinda come close to my views w/r/t one small aspect of national policy" is a pretty terrible reason to vote for a party. If you're correct that many citizens vote this way, you'd all be better off withholding from participation until you can fix your electoral system.
  - neumann_alfred 14y ago
    What is an "economic belief"? Seeing how broken our financial system and ways of thinking about it are, I take it it's some kind of religion, including all the baggage that comes with such an approach?
  - 14y ago

mattstreet 14y ago

And the "War on Terror" isn't exactly to calm people's fears either.

hrktb 14y ago

In the "follow the money" line of thinking, looking at who takes most benefits from terrorism explains a lot of things. "Terrorists" didn't get much I think. Politicians, law makers, government agencies got to push forward their agenda by leaps and bounds.

krickle 14y ago
The terrorists did get a lot of what they claimed they wanted, though.
woah 14y ago
Hmmm... I kinda wonder sometimes. This is a ludicrous idea, but have you ever thought about the recent HSBC scandal, where they were laundering billions and billions of dollars for terrorist organizations and organized crime? The same terrorist organizations and organized crime that is the primary justification for domestic spying, paramilitary police, huge prison populations, secret rendition and indefinite detention? Remember how the DOJ refused to prosecute? Wierd.
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  The more links (or phrases to search for) you could provide for this, the more grateful I'd be.
  - jre 14y ago
    Regarding the HSBC settlement : http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-proves-the-drug-war-is-a-joke-20121213 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageo... (Follow the links for a bunch of other relevant articles)
    - neumann_alfred 14y ago
      thanks!
- mtgx 14y ago

oelmekki 14y ago

> it's about preventing fear From an outsider perspective, this is very relevant of what US has became. I'm always surprised that a country which places freedom as the highest value tends to give away all its civil rights so easily. Sounds to me like people behind 9/11 attacks have succeeded : US is not fighting fear, it's diving into it, more and more every year, hence the loss of freedom for its people.

mtgx 14y ago

So what does it mean when the people fear their government more when they implement those "anti-terror" policies?

lhnn 14y ago

I'm more afraid of my government than I am of al Qaeda.

BasDirks 14y ago

"The war on terror isn't about preventing death, it's about preventing fear." That's a good one.

enraged_camel 14y ago

>> Terrorism isn't about death, it's about terror, putting people in a state of fear. The war on terror isn't about preventing death, it's about preventing fear. Then it is the greatest irony of all time that people have become more fearful of surveillance and persecution by their own governments than some terrorists who live overseas.

temp453463343 14y ago
The vast majority of people don't live in fear of their governments because they don't care. In fact, fear of government controlling out lives is mostly an American collective psychosis. (even then limited to internet activists, survivalists, gun horders etc.) Not to say it's without merit, but this really doesn't preoccupy people's thoughts in other countries. I've tried to explaining to Japanese and British people that we have guns to prevent potential government oppression and to be able to take our personal protection into our own hands. They look at you ask if you're crazy/paranoid. The whole slippery slope stuff doesn't resonate at all. The whole thing basically boils down to: "If I were to potentially at some point in the indefinite future plot anti government activities through my email I want to be sure that big brother doesn't read it" This just seems ludicrous to most people.
- gnaritas 14y ago
  It's because they're not infected since childhood with the particular American psychosis we call individuality and damn anyone else cause I got mine. That's very American.

rhizome 14y ago

No, the government exaggerates a fear of things people can't control well outside their level of risk in order to feed business to the security industries and receive campaign dollars.

whiddershins 14y ago

If causing fear defines what terrorism is, then the terrorists are government and media outlets who portray these extremely unlikely events as a credible threat. That is what creates the terror.